The question of the Sternguard and the Heavy bolter

[Battle Brother Fischer]

So as I am building several Sternguard squads I was wondering what weapons I should put in them, this is what i got:

 

 

Squad 1

 

1. power fist w/ bolter sergeant

 

2. Heavy Bolter

 

3. Heavy Bolter

 

4. bolter

 

5. bolter

 

6. bolter ty

 

7. bolter ty

 

 

 

Squad 2

 

1. bolter sergeant

 

2. Heavy Bolter

 

3. Heavy Bolter

 

4. combi w/ bolter

 

5. bolter ty

 

6. bolter ty

 

7. bolter

 

The question is; 1. are the Heavy bolters worth putting in (versus heavy and light infantry) as a special ammunition support 2. would you be better off with lascannons or multi melt or plas cannons or HF or whatev instead 3. would putting kantor in help the HB

[awfulawful]

Heavy bolters cannot use the special ammunition, so you lose out on part of what makes Sternguard so great in the first place. I'd argue that the points are better spent on more combi-weapons for the squad.

 

How are you deploying them? Ideally, they should be working at a short-range, which is another reason that the heavy bolter just doesn't fit well with the squad.

[BOBMAKENZIE]

This is the blood angels forum. Plus your sig is HUGE. Just contact one of the mods and I'm sure they'd be happy to move it. :rolleyes:

 

 

The heavy Bolters are alright. I'd be leaning more towards Special weapons or combi weapons in general myself they just mesh better with the move and shoot abilities of rapid firing bolters.

[Brother Nathan]

out of the heavys available for sternguard the heavy bolter adds the least. plas cannon, heavy flamer las etc add things to the unit that the heavy bolter dosent. and ba cant take kantor as hes not in our dex.

also nice sig making reference to toystory. still as said too big youll have to resize it quick before the mods get their beet sticks out!

[Battle Brother Fischer]

Heavy bolters cannot use the special ammunition, so you lose out on part of what makes Sternguard so great in the first place. I'd argue that the points are better spent on more combi-weapons for the squad.

 

How are you deploying them? Ideally, they should be working at a short-range, which is another reason that the heavy bolter just doesn't fit well with the squad.

 

 

haha thanks bro, literally signed up today. :D

[JamesI]

As said, the signature image is too large. Please fix it, or it will be cleaned out for you.

 

As the post references Kantor, its not a BA specific question. I'm going to move this thread to Tactica Astartes.

 

Personally, I think Heavy Bolters are not a great choice for Sternguard. If I wanted Sterguard to sit back and shoot, I'd go with Plasma cannons or lascannons.

[Battle Brother Fischer]

As said, the signature image is too large. Please fix it, or it will be cleaned out for you.

 

As the post references Kantor, its not a BA specific question. I'm going to move this thread to Tactica Astartes.

 

Personally, I think Heavy Bolters are not a great choice for Sternguard. If I wanted Sterguard to sit back and shoot, I'd go with Plasma cannons or lascannons.

 

 

Thanks man is the sig still too big? and thanks for the comment too

[JamesI]

Yep. Limits are 800 pixels by 100 pixels.

[Battle Brother Fischer]

The reason I put them in there in the first place was so that they would be FANTASTIC at fighting ANY (light and heavy) infantry with the heavier firepower, and more of it.

[ShinyRhino]

The reason I put them in there in the first place was so that they would be FANTASTIC at fighting ANY (light and heavy) infantry with the heavier firepower, and more of it.

 

Problem is, they can't use the special ammo, and the bolter-armed Marines can wound anything on a 2+ with Hellfire, reach out to 36" with Kraken bolts, etc. Heavy bolters are better fielded en masse (four of them, no less than four) in a small Devastator squad. Sternguard are defined by their special ammo and the ability to take redonkulous numbers of combis.

[Shadowstalker Grim]

Yeah, theres nothing wrong with loading up with lots of anti-infantry, but it already excels in that department.

 

Consider this scenario:

 

You're fighting in a regular battle against an opponent who is fielding a variety of infantry and tanks. During the course of the first few turns some of your regular anti-tank weapons have unfortunately been killed off and now the tanks are pummeling your forces, something needs to pick up the slack to give your army a fighting chance. Whats going to be more beneficial:

 

 

Sternguard squad with a few heavy bolters - Quite a 1 dimensional unit, it'll shoot at infantry and thats probably all it can really manage

 

Sternguard squad with a few combi-meltas - Flexible enough to provide anti-vehicle support AND anti-infantry

 

 

 

If you're going to be facing millions of footslogging enemies then heavy bolters will do nicely, but for a flexible sternguard unit, combi-weapons are dirt cheap and very useful. They don't HAVE to use those combi-weapons, but since you can arm 5 men for the same price as 1 powerfist, its pretty nice to have :rolleyes:

[BearersOfSalvation]

Heavy bolter on sternguard weakens them at their best role (short range firepower with movement) while adding a couple of shots if they're standing still at extreme range. IIRC a devastator squad of 5 with 4 heavy bolters costs about the same, and does the 'sit back and shoot hordes' much better. It's just a bad weapon fit.

 

Big sternguard squads should not have heavy weapons at all. The heavy flamers might be a good choice, but for any of the other specials I'd rather have 4 combi-weapons for the same points. Five man sternguard with plasma cannons or las cannons hiding out in a rhino make a nice little bunker unit and cost less than a dev squad with the same loadout. I've never used them, but it seems like they'd be handy.

[Koremu]

If you just want long-range Heavy Bolter fire, you're better off with Attack Bikes.

[Son Of Moriar]

If I'm going up against Guard, Eldar, Dark Eldar etc for giggles I go with 2 heavy flamers.

 

The template is nice and if I remember they ain't listed as heavy weapons so you can keep on the move to support the rest of the sqd.

 

Nothing like burning out IG weasels lol

[Battle Brother Fischer]

Thanks a ton people this helped alot. i think ill swith to something like this:

 

4 bolters

2-3 combi weapons

 

1 power fist with bolter

4 bolters

1 combi weapon

plasma cannon or las x 2

[DarkGuard]

May I just say that as a long term Sternguard addict, I don't rate them with heavy weapons. There, I said it. Sternguard shouldn't take heavy weapons. Well, I lie, they can take heavies, and it works well, but where's the fun in that. I see Sternguard as being ultra-Tactical Marines, getting into the enemy's face and unleashing a lot of horrible boltgun fire into them, and with decent combat stats they can hold their own in combat rather well.

 

As their boltgun is the key to their versatility, you ideally don't want to swap it out, so combis are the name of the game. Which combi? Well flamer is covered by ammo, so is plasma, largely. Melta isn't though, so combi-meltas are a fantastic choice, able to take out tanks (which they struggle with), as well as Terminators and MCs with ease. But they are also anti-infantry, so I like to always have at least one heavy flamer in there, two if I'm taking a big squad and have the points. Against GEQ and 4+ save armies it's fantastic, getting a vast amount of hits over the two shot kraken bolter. Against MEQ is still does fine, but if you'd prefer you can take hits on it, saving your Vengeance and Hellfire rounds. However, you don't want to go overboard with them. It's easy to make them cost over 300pts, and that's when you're paying too much.

 

So IMO, the ideal squad size tends to be around 7-8, with a few combi-meltas, a power fist, Rhino (of course), and a heavy flamer. This is the squad I prefer using when I use them, and comes in at 260-285pts depending on how many guys you put in there. 8 is best if operating alone, 7 works if they've got an IC with them and you're running out of points. I tend to give them a Libby, or if I'm feeling nasty Vulkan, so 7 men is normal just for saving those few extra points. Supported well missing out on the two extra guys doesn't matter too much, and you can spend those points on another melta bike or something.

 

As for long-range squads, they have their place, mainly in Pedro armies where they are backfield objective holders. With this squad you want the minimum, so 5 or 6, and couple of long-range heavy weapons. You don't want combis, as you shouldn't be that close, and a power fist isn't essential for the same reason, though if something does get close that could be handy. As for weapons, the lascannon and plasma cannons are the best choices. Both are normally expensive in other areas but cheap here, so pick up that bargain! The plasma cannons are brilliant for taking out infantry, which is what can capture objectives, but can also knock out light vehicles. The lascannons are can openers, but not so good against infantry. Use them to fill in an area you're lacking. As for transport, they don't necessarily need one, but can benefit from one. A Rhino protects them and lets them fire their weapons out of the top hatch. A Razorback for the small squad can protect them but stop them firing. Or you can sit them outside, and use the Razorback to get another heavy weapon into the army, like the heavy bolter.

 

Hope this helps. There are also some Sternguard loadouts in the Space Marines 101 link in my sig, if your interested feel free to take a look.

[Shadowstalker Grim]

I like the heavy bolter from an appearance kind of view, it seems such a cool weapon. Its really a shame that it has such a hard time finding a reason to be taken. In many ways its a 'dud' choice of upgrade. Don't get me wrong, its great as a free starter choice, but if there are other things on offer, it'll soon get replaced.

 

I think that problem really stems from how weapons operate:

 

All guns at their lowest level should work on light infantry (5+) - therefore anti-infantry weapon are often freely available to every unit you field.

 

A select few guns will work on heavy vehicles (AV 13-14) - So people will be taking these where they can in their lists as they will not always be freely available.

 

 

The heavy bolter fits in taking out infantry (admittedly better than our bolters) but its only punching at weak enemies which we have MANY already exisiting weapons to use on anyway...even as a free weapon in tactical squads it loses out to the other heavies.

 

Anti-tank or anti-heavy infantry weapons help diversify our squads, which as codex marines, is usually a good things (though some squads we'll want dedicated to something in particular) so for instance in your tactical squad you can improve their existing anti-infantry with a flamer, then apply a multi-melta to give it an anti-tank punch, same principle for sternguard really...

 

 

I'd second using sternguard as a powerful tactical squad. A few combi-meltas and maybe a heavy flamer and powerfist (one of the few places i'd recommend one, as a unit getting up close and being more costly is worth protecting) as DarkGuard suggests seems an excellent idea.

[Something Wycked]

I'm going to +1 DarkGuard here, but I take it a step further.

 

Any heavy weapons Sternguard can take, other units can also take. No other unit can take the weapons (special issue ammo) that Sternguard have.

 

I will never, ever, change out a Bolter in a Sternguard squad for anything other than a combi-weapon.

 

If they had better Ballistic Skill, maybe. If they had special rules that made them more effective with all ranged weapons, maybe.

 

As things stand their advantage is being capable in assault and shooting their bolters very effectively, and taking away from that weakens them as a unit.

[DarkGuard]

You always have to one up me Something Wycked ^_^.

 

But wait, you don't take heavy flamers on Sternguard?! As the only place in the Marine Codex where you can get power armoured heavy flamers (I'm not going to mention LotD here) it's just awesome and you can't miss out on that opportunity. And they fit perfectly in their short ranged anti-infantry role also allowing them charge and have some firepower. But that's how I see it, leaving the heavy flamer in favour of more special ammo boltguns (and points for combis) is a perfectly valid way to play Sternguard.

 

The other unit I haven't mentioned that I've seen used is an average sized unit with two meltaguns and two to three combi-meltas. The idea behind this unit is that with mech so prevalent then this unit will shine. It can always fire melta shots and the combi-meltas allow them to expand their melta shooting to more shots depending on what you want killed. Land Raider? Fire 4 melta shots, not just two. Two Preds need silencing? Fire 3 melta shots for two turns. You get the idea. Again, trades out boltguns and flexibility, but allows them to specialize in anti-tank while also being good at anti-infantry.

 

@Shadowstalker Grim: may I say that is a good and fair analysis as to why heavy bolters tend to be overlooked in favour of other weapons. There are often other weapons that can do their job just as well or diversify the unit. My Tactical squads always take MM, even if taking flamers, for that very reason. That being said, heavy bolters have their place, normally tacked to the side of a dakka pred, or in a heavy bolter Dev squad, attack bike squad, or on Typhoons.

[Paulochromis]

I use (in increasing order of agression):

- 2 lascannons, 3 bolters in a rhino (better than 5 tacts in a TLLC razor)

- 2 heavy flamer, 3 combi-melta in a rhino (any one for a barbecue?)

- 2 melta, 2 combi-melta, 6 bolter in a drop pod

 

That said, I'm painting half my SG as Deathwatch. The heavy bolter is by far the coolest looking weapon and Deathwatch used to be allowed to fire them on the move - thanks to suspensors. I'm tempted to model ALL my Deathwatch SG with HBs to differentiate them from tacticals and highlight the special ammo capability.

 

Cheers, Paul.

[Mysticaria]

You always have to one up me Something Wycked :D.

 

But wait, you don't take heavy flamers on Sternguard?! ^_^ As the only place in the Marine Codex where you can get power armoured heavy flamers (I'm not going to mention LotD here)

Did someone mention legion of the damned?

 

Seriously though... I think everyone here has hit on some good points. Special ammo and super-cheap combi-weapons are the strengths of sternguard. Weapons which add to those capabilities are good. Weapons that take away from those capabilities are not so much. I can see a place for heavy flamers in certain armies... but it still is not too exciting to lose the special ammo. I'd tend to rate double heavy flamer in a 5-man squad, or multiple combi weapons in a 10-man squad.

 

-Myst

[Something Wycked]

Heh, not trying to one up you though :D You gave an excellent tactical analysis of some of the most effective ways to field Sternguard, I just happen to be a purist in this regard

 

Heavy Flamers don't really appeal to me; the only non MEQ armies I face are nids and Orks, and they are far, far outnumbered by the MEQ opponents. The nids like to mix horde and MC's, and I don't like to deal with the horde up close with flamer templates. The Orks are mech- a bunch of Trukks with Boyz surrounding a KFF, so a Heavy Flamer doesn't do me any good against them, either.

 

But that's just my meta. I do, however, take combi-flamers on my Sternguard. I just don't feel I get a benefit from swapping a Heavy Flamer for a Combi-Flamer ^_^

[Battle Brother Fischer]

fantastic. i still have no idea just how im going to field my Sternguard but i do enjoy reading what others have to say. :D

[DarkGuard]

@Battle Brother Fischer, the best way to make your mind up is proxy them for a few games. Put them into your list to cover a weakness, try them out, and if you like them then cool. If you don't then try another load out.

 

@Something Wycked, true, metagame comes into it a lot. Truth be told I have a lot of MEQ armies here, but still prefer the heavy flamer. But this is comes from the time I used to run Vulkan. 3 twin-linked heavy flamers in one squad? Yes please. Decent combat ability, and combi-meltas which are twin-linked (the melta part anyway). But against MEQ I suppose hellfire and vengeance is preferred, either for taking away their armour save or forcing a lot of saves on them. Not sure about the numbers though, but considering a heavy flamer can easily hit 3-4 guys, wounding on 3s, and the hellfire can only hit a max of 2 guys, wounding on 2s, I'm pretty sure that performance aspect will be the same. So it's the vengeance wounds you're giving up, because MEQ out of cover hates vengeance.

 

I have been considering writing up a Tactica on Sternguard, a use and load out one, rather than a "which round to use" one which is already in the Librarium, and this article has given me additional incentive to actually get round to it.

[Battle Brother Fischer]

I was looking at my codex and it turns out that a 5 man SG squad fielding two lascannons is 5 points cheaper than a 5 man Dev squad fielding the same two weapons. This surprised me and i thought that of course it would be a good idea to replace my devs with SG due to their exceptional fighting ability, special ammo, and their cheaper! upon closer look i disagreed. Although the dev squad is 5 points more expensive and lacks the special bolter fire, they have the signum. The sergeant's signum, combined with the fact that you can have an additional two heavy weapons makes up for the fact that it is a little more expensive. I feel that in all honesty the Dev squad has it's rightful place as does the SG squad. Also two lascannons with two MLs and a few other marines to take the wounds kicks ass against most any unit type.