Cleansing Flames

[spu00sed]

I was wondering what happened if two Purifier squads attacked the same enemy unit and both released their cleansing flame.

 

A ) You resolve the first cleansing flame, then resolve the second cleansing flame against the survivors

 

B ) Both cleansing flames go off at the same time.

 

Examples (mathhammer style, rounding up)

 

Two Purifiers charge a mob of 30 and both cleansing flames go off.

 

A ) The first cleansing flame wounds 15 Orks and kills 13 of them, leaving 17. The second flame hits them wounding 9, killing 8. Leaving 9 Orks alive

 

B ) Both cleansing flames strike, simultaneously, wounding all 30 Orks, killing 25. Leaving 5 alive.

 

 

Reason for edit: B ) looks like :D if you are not careful. :lol:

[veidin]

The spell states after assault moves but before blows are struck. Initiative doesn't come into play due to this so I see no reason why they both dont happen simultaneously therefor both spells affecting the entirety of the enemy squad.

[spu00sed]

The spell states after assault moves but before blows are struck. Initiative doesn't come into play due to this so I see no reason why they both dont happen simultaneously therefor both spells affecting the entirety of the enemy squad.

 

That is what I am hoping, but is there some rule I have missed that say spell effects happen as soon as you pass the test.

 

Which will mean the first spell has to be resolved before the second spell is cast, even though they both happen at the start of the combat phase.

[Angelis Mortis]

I believe it should be like this.

 

In our example we have a mob of 30 orks.

 

1)Roll 30 dice for first one, pull out 4+ dice.

2)Roll 30 dice for second one, pull out 4+ dice.

3)Add up number of 4+ dice, Ork players assigns wounds as normal.

 

As far as I am concerned, I think it simply follows standard wound allocation procedures. Think of it like you hit them with two flamer templates.

[veidin]

I believe it should be like this.

 

In our example we have a mob of 30 orks.

 

1)Roll 30 dice for first one, pull out 4+ dice.

2)Roll 30 dice for second one, pull out 4+ dice.

3)Add up number of 4+ dice, Ork players assigns wounds as normal.

 

As far as I am concerned, I think it simply follows standard wound allocation procedures. Think of it like you hit them with two flamer templates.

 

That is exactly how I view it and was gonna make the flamer template reference too haha but decided not to.

[Something Wycked]

Think of it like you hit them with two flamer templates.

Bad example. This is two "flamer templates" coming from two different squads. If this was happening in the shooting phase, they would be resolved after one another (one squad completes its shooting before the other starts theirs.)

 

However, its happening in the assault phase and this is a little less well defined. I'm going to take this question to the OR forum.

[mega_marines]

By RAW, and RAI, it seems you would do both at the EXACT same time.

[Something Wycked]

Thread is here.

 

Sorry mega, but the RAW is not clear (as usual), and neither is the RAI.

[Mattsama]

Just throwing my two cents in:

 

to me it's similar to firing a Dev Squad with 4 plasma cannons. Resolve all hits. Then resolve all wounds. Then allocate and try to save!!

[Prathios]

Honestly to me it seems like at the same time. I think they should happen simultaneously. This is to the opponents advantage as they can assign wounds to save more models. This to me seems the most likely and least OP. If they went one, then the other it would be much stronger, and since the power is already incredibly nasty I don't see why we need it to be stronger.

[Something Wycked]

it's similar to firing a Dev Squad with 4 plasma cannons. Resolve all hits. Then resolve all wounds. Then allocate and try to save!!

This would be the case if it was only one squad using Cleansing Flame, but this is not the case. The question is of two different units using Cleansing Flame.

 

Honestly to me it seems like at the same time. I think they should happen simultaneously. This is to the opponents advantage as they can assign wounds to save more models. This to me seems the most likely and least OP. If they went one, then the other it would be much stronger, and since the power is already incredibly nasty I don't see why we need it to be stronger.

If I'm reading your idea correctly, you'd want to roll 30 dice + 30 dice and apply the results separately but at the same time? This would have essentially the same effect as only using Cleansing Flame with one squad, since your opponent could double up almost every single wound and not lose hardly any additional models.

 

Example: lets say you rolled a bit below average, scoring 13 and 11 wounds.

 

The Orks roll all 24 saves and let's assume they fail all of them. They only remove 13 models because the 11 other wounds are stacked on top of the 13 models already dying.

[Prathios]

it's similar to firing a Dev Squad with 4 plasma cannons. Resolve all hits. Then resolve all wounds. Then allocate and try to save!!

This would be the case if it was only one squad using Cleansing Flame, but this is not the case. The question is of two different units using Cleansing Flame.

 

Honestly to me it seems like at the same time. I think they should happen simultaneously. This is to the opponents advantage as they can assign wounds to save more models. This to me seems the most likely and least OP. If they went one, then the other it would be much stronger, and since the power is already incredibly nasty I don't see why we need it to be stronger.

If I'm reading your idea correctly, you'd want to roll 30 dice + 30 dice and apply the results separately but at the same time? This would have essentially the same effect as only using Cleansing Flame with one squad, since your opponent could double up almost every single wound and not lose hardly any additional models.

 

Example: lets say you rolled a bit below average, scoring 13 and 11 wounds.

 

The Orks roll all 24 saves and let's assume they fail all of them. They only remove 13 models because the 11 other wounds are stacked on top of the 13 models already dying.

 

Yes, if he's smart and has different wargear then he can in fact put those wounds on the same models. Honestly though I think it's semantics. If you have two purifier squads charge a unit, it's gonna be dead to a man anyway.

[Crynn]

it's similar to firing a Dev Squad with 4 plasma cannons. Resolve all hits. Then resolve all wounds. Then allocate and try to save!!

This would be the case if it was only one squad using Cleansing Flame, but this is not the case. The question is of two different units using Cleansing Flame.

 

Honestly to me it seems like at the same time. I think they should happen simultaneously. This is to the opponents advantage as they can assign wounds to save more models. This to me seems the most likely and least OP. If they went one, then the other it would be much stronger, and since the power is already incredibly nasty I don't see why we need it to be stronger.

If I'm reading your idea correctly, you'd want to roll 30 dice + 30 dice and apply the results separately but at the same time? This would have essentially the same effect as only using Cleansing Flame with one squad, since your opponent could double up almost every single wound and not lose hardly any additional models.

 

Example: lets say you rolled a bit below average, scoring 13 and 11 wounds.

 

The Orks roll all 24 saves and let's assume they fail all of them. They only remove 13 models because the 11 other wounds are stacked on top of the 13 models already dying.

 

Yes, if he's smart and has different wargear then he can in fact put those wounds on the same models. Honestly though I think it's semantics. If you have two purifier squads charge a unit, it's gonna be dead to a man anyway.

 

I don't think that is really the right way to go about it. More likely is that each one strikes simultaneously and the wounds are added together just like in normal combat which works on Initiative order, eg two different squads attacking the same target at the same initiative would just add all their wounds together for them to be split by wound alocation in one big group. I think CF should work the same way and I see no reason why it wouldn't.

 

Regards,

 

Crynn

[Something Wycked]

The problem with that outlook, Crynn, is that this power is happening before the initiative order is considered. After moves and before blows. I don't know of an Assault phase power that directly inflicts wounds like this outside of the initiative rounds; something along those lines would be easier to handle.

[Crynn]

The problem with that outlook, Crynn, is that this power is happening before the initiative order is considered. After moves and before blows. I don't know of an Assault phase power that directly inflicts wounds like this outside of the initiative rounds; something along those lines would be easier to handle.

 

Very true. However I would seeing is it states EXACTLY when the power is cast and there is no room to do anything else in that point of time that both powers are cast in the exact same time frame or point of time. Also when combat is made the rule book states it all becomes one big combat, ie same checks for ld they all make wounds are tallied together so essentailly it is a lot like shooting two flame templates from the same squad as it is one big combat by the rule book,.

 

Regards,

 

Crynn

[BrotherWasted]

You cast the power(s) after assault moves are made and before blows are struck.

 

Make your Psychic tests after all units have charged, but before rolling to-hit.

 

I don't see where there is any other interpretation.

[Brother Valerius]

There's no real reason in the rules to support one interpretation or the other, I think. Grey Mage actually raised a very valid point in the OR thread: the power says that after you resolve it, blows are struck as normal, so there's a possible third interpretation that only one cleansing flame goes off.

[Something Wycked]

You cast the power(s) after assault moves are made and before blows are struck.

 

Make your Psychic tests after all units have charged, but before rolling to-hit.

 

I don't see where there is any other interpretation.

The problem is not whether or not they both get to use Cleansing Flame; they do. (Valerius, I addressed GM's "option 3" in the OR.) The problem revolves around timing; do both Cleansing Flames happen at the same time? Are casualties removed between their use? When are casualties removed when you are in the Assault phase but before the initiative rounds? Are casualties removed after the first use of Cleansing Flame, reducing the second use's effectiveness? Or are they both rolled at the full model count simultaneously?

 

I put my ideas/argument in the OR thread:

Purifiers A charge a unit of Purifiers B and Crowe. Purifiers A roll their psychic test and succeed, rolling to wound Purifiers B and Crowe. Crowe was previously wounded, is wounded again by CF and rolls a 1 for his armor save. Crowe's player opts not to use Heroic Sacrifice since there are no special characters in base contact with him, instead using Crowe's CF that is happening at the same time as the one that is killing him. He makes his psychic test, rolls to wound against Purifiers A, and Crowe and models from Purifers A and B that failed their armor saves are removed from the board as casualties. Purifiers B, not having used their CF yet, now make their psychic test, succeed, and roll to wound on Purifers A, inflicting more casualties on Purifiers A.

tl;dr version: In my opinion, Cleansing Flame happens in succession, with casualties removed between uses of it, but it happens "simultaneously enough" that if a unit with CF is killed by CF, it still gets to use CF before being removed as a casualty.

[Godhead]

make assault moves roll the dice for the test for both squads at the same time. It goes off at the same time.

[Brother Dylan]

No doubt about it, they would go off at the same time. Unless stated otherwise by an faq this is fairly cut and dry.

[uberschveinen]

Why is this cut and dry? You resolve shooting attacks from different squads subsequently, and this sure as hell ain't no combat attack since it has no Initiative value. The most mechanically analogous precedent is the shooting phase, so I would apply shootign phase rules. One then the other.

[landoro]

I cant make qoutes so i just copy-paste what I want to answer.

 

"Purifiers A charge a unit of Purifiers B and Crowe. Purifiers A roll their psychic test and succeed, rolling to wound Purifiers B and Crowe. Crowe was previously wounded, is wounded again by CF and rolls a 1 for his armor save. Crowe's player opts not to use Heroic Sacrifice since there are no special characters in base contact with him, instead using Crowe's CF that is happening at the same time as the one that is killing him. He makes his psychic test, rolls to wound against Purifiers A, and Crowe and models from Purifers A and B that failed their armor saves are removed from the board as casualties. Purifiers B, not having used their CF yet, now make their psychic test, succeed, and roll to wound on Purifers A, inflicting more casualties on Purifiers A."

 

How did you come to this interpretation of the rule? IF Crows CF happen at the same time as as A then should not Bs happen at the same time also and not after? You cant have both, either they happen at the same time or not.

 

 

"You resolve shooting attacks from different squads subsequently, and this sure as hell ain't no combat "attack since it has no Initiative value. The most mechanically analogous precedent is the shooting phase, so I would apply shootign phase rules. One then the other."

 

You are right it is not a close combat attack, however it is definatly not a shooting attack either, not even a psychic shooting attack per the rules and has nothing to do with it, it has more to do with close combat attacks than anything. I think the example with attacks from diffrent squads at the same I is the best example to use in this situation.

[Angelis Mortis]

Why is this cut and dry? You resolve shooting attacks from different squads subsequently, and this sure as hell ain't no combat attack since it has no Initiative value. The most mechanically analogous precedent is the shooting phase, so I would apply shootign phase rules. One then the other.

 

Actually, the most analogous thing is the assault rules. What do you do if squad A&B attacks squad C and everyone goes at Initiative 4? Do you resolve one at a time? No, you roll them together, then roll the opponents, then apply all casualties. The only difference is, instead of going at a specific initiative, they go before initiatives but simultaneously. Sort of like the polar opposite of Powerfists or Thunderhammers going dead last, instead, these go dead first. The Cleansing Flame even states you consider the casualties in the assault results. That is indeed cut and dry.

 

Purifiers A charge a unit of Purifiers B and Crowe. Purifiers A roll their psychic test and succeed, rolling to wound Purifiers B and Crowe. Crowe was previously wounded, is wounded again by CF and rolls a 1 for his armor save. Crowe's player opts not to use Heroic Sacrifice since there are no special characters in base contact with him, instead using Crowe's CF that is happening at the same time as the one that is killing him. He makes his psychic test, rolls to wound against Purifiers A, and Crowe and models from Purifers A and B that failed their armor saves are removed from the board as casualties. Purifiers B, not having used their CF yet, now make their psychic test, succeed, and roll to wound on Purifers A, inflicting more casualties on Purifiers A.

 

I totally dont understand this jumble so let me break it down how it works taking average dice rolls for all dice results rounded off.

 

1. Purifier squad A(10man)+Crowe assaults Purifier B(10 man).

2. Everyone uses Cleansing flame (2 from Crowe and A and one from B )

3. A rolls 10 dice vs B, say has 5 hits. 5 hits=2 wounds (set aside for now, not resolved).

4. Crowe rolls 10 dice vs B, 5 hits, 2 wounds. (also set aside, not resolved yet.)

5. B rolls 10 dice vs A and 1 vs Crowe, 5 hits 2 wounds on A, 1 hit, no wound on Crowe (set aside not resolved)

6. All casualties from both sides are removed simultaneously BECAUSE they happened simultaneously.

7. Assault continues in standard initiative order.

8.Combat is done, casualties from step 6 are added to step 7 casualties for results.

 

That is how it reads, that is how it should happen.

[BrotherWasted]

Why is this cut and dry? You resolve shooting attacks from different squads subsequently, and this sure as hell ain't no combat attack since it has no Initiative value. The most mechanically analogous precedent is the shooting phase, so I would apply shootign phase rules. One then the other.

 

The reason this does not work is because the power specifically says "after assault moves have been made, but before blows are struck". Every unit that can use Cleansing Flame in that Assault Phase has an identical window in time where the rules say they are to make their psychic test. You charge your units in, make all psychic tests simultaneously, assign the wounds caused, make the saving rolls, then after all that is done, you move onto resolving the actual fights.

[RedemptionNL]

I'd vote for at the same time as well.

 

If it happened subsequently, you'd run into all weird situations, such as:

- 2 Purifier squads change into combat against a large mob. Purifier squad 1 casts Cleansing Flame. Opposing player removes all the models in base contact that Purifier Squad 2. Is Purifier Squad 2 now even considered in combat?

- 2 Opposing GK players, each have a squad of Purifiers. They get locked in combat with each other, and both want to cast Cleansing Flame. Which Purifier squad would get to go first?