Cleansing Flames

[Prathios]

Why is this cut and dry? You resolve shooting attacks from different squads subsequently, and this sure as hell ain't no combat attack since it has no Initiative value. The most mechanically analogous precedent is the shooting phase, so I would apply shootign phase rules. One then the other.

 

Actually, the most analogous thing is the assault rules. What do you do if squad A&B attacks squad C and everyone goes at Initiative 4? Do you resolve one at a time? No, you roll them together, then roll the opponents, then apply all casualties. The only difference is, instead of going at a specific initiative, they go before initiatives but simultaneously. Sort of like the polar opposite of Powerfists or Thunderhammers going dead last, instead, these go dead first. The Cleansing Flame even states you consider the casualties in the assault results. That is indeed cut and dry.

 

Purifiers A charge a unit of Purifiers B and Crowe. Purifiers A roll their psychic test and succeed, rolling to wound Purifiers B and Crowe. Crowe was previously wounded, is wounded again by CF and rolls a 1 for his armor save. Crowe's player opts not to use Heroic Sacrifice since there are no special characters in base contact with him, instead using Crowe's CF that is happening at the same time as the one that is killing him. He makes his psychic test, rolls to wound against Purifiers A, and Crowe and models from Purifers A and B that failed their armor saves are removed from the board as casualties. Purifiers B, not having used their CF yet, now make their psychic test, succeed, and roll to wound on Purifers A, inflicting more casualties on Purifiers A.

 

I totally dont understand this jumble so let me break it down how it works taking average dice rolls for all dice results rounded off.

 

1. Purifier squad A(10man)+Crowe assaults Purifier B(10 man).

2. Everyone uses Cleansing flame (2 from Crowe and A and one from B )

3. A rolls 10 dice vs B, say has 5 hits. 5 hits=2 wounds (set aside for now, not resolved).

4. Crowe rolls 10 dice vs B, 5 hits, 2 wounds. (also set aside, not resolved yet.)

5. B rolls 10 dice vs A and 1 vs Crowe, 5 hits 2 wounds on A, 1 hit, no wound on Crowe (set aside not resolved)

6. All casualties from both sides are removed simultaneously BECAUSE they happened simultaneously.

7. Assault continues in standard initiative order.

8.Combat is done, casualties from step 6 are added to step 7 casualties for results.

 

That is how it reads, that is how it should happen.

 

^ this is how I read it myself. They happen at the same time so your opponent gets to decide wounds for both flames before removing models. Seems easy enough to me. But I can see how there is confusion. Not surprising with this Codex.

[KnowThyEnemy]

i dont understand why there is so much confusion. i understand some of the rules are murky, but c'mon people, when has GW put out a set of rules that is bulletproof without the need for an FAQ? its impossible to cover every single example when you have multiple rule sets interacting with each other. i think the confusion stems from people applying RAW or RAI or whatever else they want to do to justify them being right. using the shooting phase rules for an attack clearly made in the assault phase? wow, just wow. making up a completely new process for 1 rule instead of using the standard process (close combat attacks are simo at the same level) is just silly. CF happens first and at the same time, despite the fact its prior to regular I level attacks. its still an attack step in the cc phase. just think of it as I 11 or always strikes first or something like that (it goes to 11...11!!!! ^_^)

[TheDarkOne]

My $0.02 on Cleansing Flame:

 

They would happen simultaneously, 4+ on a D6 to wound roll per model, per activated cleansing flame.

 

Also, for the example of two cleansing flames hitting a mob of 30 boyz, each model would have 2 to-wound rolls from the combined flames. therefore it would be possible that the nob , or big shoota or other specific model would die due to wounds caused on them specifically.

[genesis_rhapsod0s]

Why is this cut and dry? You resolve shooting attacks from different squads subsequently, and this sure as hell ain't no combat attack since it has no Initiative value. The most mechanically analogous precedent is the shooting phase, so I would apply shootign phase rules. One then the other.

 

Actually, the most analogous thing is the assault rules. What do you do if squad A&B attacks squad C and everyone goes at Initiative 4? Do you resolve one at a time? No, you roll them together, then roll the opponents, then apply all casualties. The only difference is, instead of going at a specific initiative, they go before initiatives but simultaneously. Sort of like the polar opposite of Powerfists or Thunderhammers going dead last, instead, these go dead first. The Cleansing Flame even states you consider the casualties in the assault results. That is indeed cut and dry.

 

Purifiers A charge a unit of Purifiers B and Crowe. Purifiers A roll their psychic test and succeed, rolling to wound Purifiers B and Crowe. Crowe was previously wounded, is wounded again by CF and rolls a 1 for his armor save. Crowe's player opts not to use Heroic Sacrifice since there are no special characters in base contact with him, instead using Crowe's CF that is happening at the same time as the one that is killing him. He makes his psychic test, rolls to wound against Purifiers A, and Crowe and models from Purifers A and B that failed their armor saves are removed from the board as casualties. Purifiers B, not having used their CF yet, now make their psychic test, succeed, and roll to wound on Purifers A, inflicting more casualties on Purifiers A.

 

I totally dont understand this jumble so let me break it down how it works taking average dice rolls for all dice results rounded off.

 

1. Purifier squad A(10man)+Crowe assaults Purifier B(10 man).

2. Everyone uses Cleansing flame (2 from Crowe and A and one from B )

3. A rolls 10 dice vs B, say has 5 hits. 5 hits=2 wounds (set aside for now, not resolved).

4. Crowe rolls 10 dice vs B, 5 hits, 2 wounds. (also set aside, not resolved yet.)

5. B rolls 10 dice vs A and 1 vs Crowe, 5 hits 2 wounds on A, 1 hit, no wound on Crowe (set aside not resolved)

6. All casualties from both sides are removed simultaneously BECAUSE they happened simultaneously.

7. Assault continues in standard initiative order.

8.Combat is done, casualties from step 6 are added to step 7 casualties for results.

 

That is how it reads, that is how it should happen.

 

This is my interpretation of it as well. However, just for simplicity's sake, I would roll both squads separately until I had a FAQ to lay it to rest. Who knows what shenanigans would be called on me for rolling simultaneously?

[Something Wycked]

Who knows what shenanigans would be called on me for rolling simultaneously?

This.

 

Can't tell me your friend the Ork/Nid/Horde IG player is going to be happy with you insisting you get to roll as many dice as he has models multiple times.

[Angelis Mortis]

Who knows what shenanigans would be called on me for rolling simultaneously?

This.

 

Can't tell me your friend the Ork/Nid/Horde IG player is going to be happy with you insisting you get to roll as many dice as he has models multiple times.

 

Don't really care how he feels about it. Thats how you do it. How does he feel when he starts the wound allocation shenanegins with his Nob Bikers or what have you.

[Something Wycked]

You... don't care... how your friend feels? :huh: I'm suddenly glad I don't game in your neighborhood. :)

 

I don't much mind his wound allocation shenanigans; I can do it myself with Paladins, and I can instant-death all of his Nobz with a regular squad's melee attacks.

[Angelis Mortis]

You... don't care... how your friend feels? :huh: I'm suddenly glad I don't game in your neighborhood. :)

 

I don't much mind his wound allocation shenanigans; I can do it myself with Paladins, and I can instant-death all of his Nobz with a regular squad's melee attacks.

 

Its not like that, the point is, regardless whether you like the rule or not, the rule is what it is.

[Something Wycked]

I can just as easily say the opposite and its just as true as what you've said.

 

What really "is what it is", are the unclear rules that can easily be interpreted in numerous ways- and you're picking the most powerful option and saying there's no other possible way it could be used without a doubt.

[Prathios]

I can just as easily say the opposite and its just as true as what you've said.

 

What really "is what it is", are the unclear rules that can easily be interpreted in numerous ways- and you're picking the most powerful option and saying there's no other possible way it could be used without a doubt.

 

 

Actually the most powerful option would be to insist wounds are calculated between rounds of flame. Allowing all wounds to be calculated at the same time does give your opponent a huge break. I'll admit that stacking the flame rules into one round of rolling seems odd to me because it's like a flamethrower in this regard (pure fluff justification) so you wouldn't only use one template if you have two flamethrowers. The rules do not allow for anything better than a justification of this kind though.

[Something Wycked]

Actually the most powerful option would be to insist wounds are calculated between rounds of flame.

Not quite, Prathios. See the OP's example:

 

Examples (mathhammer style, rounding up)

 

Two Purifiers charge a mob of 30 and both cleansing flames go off.

 

A ) The first cleansing flame wounds 15 Orks and kills 13 of them, leaving 17. The second flame hits them wounding 9, killing 8. Leaving 9 Orks alive

 

B ) Both cleansing flames strike, simultaneously, wounding all 30 Orks, killing 25. Leaving 5 alive.

The rules do not allow for anything better than a justification of this kind though.

Unfortunately, the rules don't specify anything other than after moves, before blows. If you can find me something in the BRB that details how to apply multiple instances of wound-inflicting psychic powers that happen in the Assault phase before initiative rounds, I'm all ears :D

[landoro]

It seems sometimes that the general thoughts on this forum by some is: ohh this rule is too good , how can I misinterpret it so is gets worse?

 

Not all situations are detailed in teh rulebook, and when this happens players must come to an understanding of how the situation/rule should be played. With few exceptions almost everyone agrees on the same conclussion, they go of at the same time. This conclussion is supported by other rules and examples (generally the close combat rules, you strike at the same time with same I for example) and interpretation of the wording of the rules. If you feel diffrently come with argumentents, why should it be otherwise, what do you base your arguments on? There were some arguments with ashooting attacks howeve, using that as comparison does not work since it is not a shooting attack and has nothing in common with one.

 

Some rules are hard to interpret, however in my opnion this is one is not.

 

The rules are what they are and just because someone complains about it being overpowered or somehow misinterprets a rules should not change the rule or the general consensus of its interpretation. I think i am going to start misinterpret a lot of rules in this case so my opponet have to play like I think it is...

[Prathios]

Actually the most powerful option would be to insist wounds are calculated between rounds of flame.

Not quite, Prathios. See the OP's example:

 

Examples (mathhammer style, rounding up)

 

Two Purifiers charge a mob of 30 and both cleansing flames go off.

 

A ) The first cleansing flame wounds 15 Orks and kills 13 of them, leaving 17. The second flame hits them wounding 9, killing 8. Leaving 9 Orks alive

 

B ) Both cleansing flames strike, simultaneously, wounding all 30 Orks, killing 25. Leaving 5 alive.

The rules do not allow for anything better than a justification of this kind though.

Unfortunately, the rules don't specify anything other than after moves, before blows. If you can find me something in the BRB that details how to apply multiple instances of wound-inflicting psychic powers that happen in the Assault phase before initiative rounds, I'm all ears :D

 

Well if you look at page 65 of the BRB you will find that under the section called... I got nothing.

[Something Wycked]

With few exceptions almost everyone agrees on the same conclussion, they go of at the same time. This conclussion is supported by other rules and examples (generally the close combat rules, you strike at the same time with same I for example) and interpretation of the wording of the rules. If you feel diffrently come with argumentents, why should it be otherwise, what do you base your arguments on? There were some arguments with ashooting attacks howeve, using that as comparison does not work since it is not a shooting attack and has nothing in common with one.

 

Some rules are hard to interpret, however in my opnion this is one is not.

Except that Cleansing Flame doesn't follow the close combat rules; the only thing it has in common with them is the phase in which it is used. Cleansing Flame has much more in common with psychic shooting attacks. Most Assault phase psychic powers modify the resulting assault phase in some way without inflicting wounds directly. Off the top of my head, I can't think of another psychic power used in the Assault phase that inflicts hits and wounds. They're extraordinarily rare, if they exist at all.

 

Cleansing Flame, on the other hand, defines who is hit with it and then defines what is needed to roll to wound those models that are hit. This is functionally identical to Smite, Vortex, etc, except which phase its used in and how the targets are chosen.

 

What is really going on is this is a psychic shooting attack... that goes off in the Assault phase.

 

Some rules are hard to interpret. This is one of them. Not so much in the interpretation of the power itself... How it interacts with other uses of the same power, definitely.

 

Lets not forget the last bit of the power: "... and then blows are struck as normal." You can argue that you get multiple uses of the power at the same time, with maximum dice thrown for maximum damage, and I can argue that you only get one use before normal assault attacks happen, and both are "supported" by RAW.

 

We're not given enough information to decide what the RAW really intends, but we can guess at the RAI, and the reasonable way to go is option A:

 

Examples (mathhammer style, rounding up)

 

Two Purifiers charge a mob of 30 and both cleansing flames go off.

 

A ) The first cleansing flame wounds 15 Orks and kills 13 of them, leaving 17. The second flame hits them wounding 9, killing 8. Leaving 9 Orks alive

 

B ) Both cleansing flames strike, simultaneously, wounding all 30 Orks, killing 25. Leaving 5 alive.

[Prathios]

With few exceptions almost everyone agrees on the same conclussion, they go of at the same time. This conclussion is supported by other rules and examples (generally the close combat rules, you strike at the same time with same I for example) and interpretation of the wording of the rules. If you feel diffrently come with argumentents, why should it be otherwise, what do you base your arguments on? There were some arguments with ashooting attacks howeve, using that as comparison does not work since it is not a shooting attack and has nothing in common with one.

 

Some rules are hard to interpret, however in my opnion this is one is not.

Except that Cleansing Flame doesn't follow the close combat rules; the only thing it has in common with them is the phase in which it is used. Cleansing Flame has much more in common with psychic shooting attacks. Most Assault phase psychic powers modify the resulting assault phase in some way without inflicting wounds directly. Off the top of my head, I can't think of another psychic power used in the Assault phase that inflicts hits and wounds. They're extraordinarily rare, if they exist at all.

 

Cleansing Flame, on the other hand, defines who is hit with it and then defines what is needed to roll to wound those models that are hit. This is functionally identical to Smite, Vortex, etc, except which phase its used in and how the targets are chosen.

 

What is really going on is this is a psychic shooting attack... that goes off in the Assault phase.

 

Some rules are hard to interpret. This is one of them. Not so much in the interpretation of the power itself... How it interacts with other uses of the same power, definitely.

 

Lets not forget the last bit of the power: "... and then blows are struck as normal." You can argue that you get multiple uses of the power at the same time, with maximum dice thrown for maximum damage, and I can argue that you only get one use before normal assault attacks happen, and both are "supported" by RAW.

 

We're not given enough information to decide what the RAW really intends, but we can guess at the RAI, and the reasonable way to go is option A:

 

Examples (mathhammer style, rounding up)

 

Two Purifiers charge a mob of 30 and both cleansing flames go off.

 

A ) The first cleansing flame wounds 15 Orks and kills 13 of them, leaving 17. The second flame hits them wounding 9, killing 8. Leaving 9 Orks alive

 

B ) Both cleansing flames strike, simultaneously, wounding all 30 Orks, killing 25. Leaving 5 alive.

 

You need to note that this way of doing things is only less powerful in this specific example. Doing this on any squad with multiple wounds or assorted wargear would result in more deaths not less.

[Angelis Mortis]

I can just as easily say the opposite and its just as true as what you've said.

 

What really "is what it is", are the unclear rules that can easily be interpreted in numerous ways- and you're picking the most powerful option and saying there's no other possible way it could be used without a doubt.

 

Dude, this is one of the clearer rules in the game. The example I've given follows the rules exactly. It doesn't do anything crazy or odd, it comes out as it reads it should come out. I have no idea where you could even possibly be under the impression that its unclear. Somebody may not like the fact that you stand a reasonable chance to lose a huge chunk of a mob if you swarm them, but you know if you read the fluff thats what the fluff shows. A small squad of GK massacring huge mobs. So why would the rule be any different? Thats what its trying to represent.

[ToI]

What is really going on is this is a psychic shooting attack... that goes off in the Assault phase.

 

 

May I point out that you pulled that statement completely out of nowhere.

 

A- it's not a psychic shooting attack so it wont follow those rules unless specified that is would...

B- the fact that it happens during the assault phase would tell me (yes this is an interpretation) that the units function as if it were CC with regards to order of operations. Because it is now one assault and not 2 units shooting at another unit this seems the most reasonable option to me

 

Obviously we can add this to the list of corner cases that GW is going to have to FAQ for us because we can't agree on something.

[Tybrus]

Take my thoughts for what its worth but I read and and my group has agreed to the following understanding.

 

 

The rule states 'happens after assault moves you do CF' that being an agreed on truth as its right out of the book. SO that being said when squad one moves and comes into contact (moving withing the 1" during their assault moves) So AS SOON as you move squad a into contact your CF goes off BEFORE you can move Squad B within 1" and thus able to use its CF.

 

I am not sure if that is RAI, but it is a strict use of RAW to get a fair effect.

 

Take it or not...

[ToI]

Take my thoughts for what its worth but I read and and my group has agreed to the following understanding.

 

 

The rule states 'happens after assault moves you do CF' that being an agreed on truth as its right out of the book. SO that being said when squad one moves and comes into contact (moving withing the 1" during their assault moves) So AS SOON as you move squad a into contact your CF goes off BEFORE you can move Squad B within 1" and thus able to use its CF.

 

I am not sure if that is RAI, but it is a strict use of RAW to get a fair effect.

 

Take it or not...

 

 

Except it says "after assault moves before blows are struck. It doesn't say after the unit has finished it's assault move.

[Angelis Mortis]

Take my thoughts for what its worth but I read and and my group has agreed to the following understanding.

 

 

The rule states 'happens after assault moves you do CF' that being an agreed on truth as its right out of the book. SO that being said when squad one moves and comes into contact (moving withing the 1" during their assault moves) So AS SOON as you move squad a into contact your CF goes off BEFORE you can move Squad B within 1" and thus able to use its CF.

 

I am not sure if that is RAI, but it is a strict use of RAW to get a fair effect.

 

Take it or not...

 

 

Except it says "after assault moves before blows are struck. It doesn't say after the unit has finished it's assault move.

 

Correct, this would mean after you've done all your assault moves and he's done all his countering.

[Something Wycked]

Dude, this is one of the clearer rules in the game. The example I've given follows the rules exactly. It doesn't do anything crazy or odd, it comes out as it reads it should come out. I have no idea where you could even possibly be under the impression that its unclear. Somebody may not like the fact that you stand a reasonable chance to lose a huge chunk of a mob if you swarm them, but you know if you read the fluff thats what the fluff shows. A small squad of GK massacring huge mobs. So why would the rule be any different? Thats what its trying to represent.

If it is only a single squad using Cleansing Flame, I couldn't agree more- its plenty clear.

 

What isn't clear is how it works if there's more than one unit with Cleansing Flame, which is what this thread is about. Saying "its perfectly clear to everyone except those of you with no vision" is not justification. Its also fairly well established that fluff =/= rules, so that "justification" goes right out the window.

 

May I point out that you pulled that statement completely out of nowhere.

 

A- it's not a psychic shooting attack so it wont follow those rules unless specified that is would...

Sure, it does not have the "psychic shooting attack" verbage, but if you look at how the rule functions, that is how it works; it gives a mechanic to hit targets and wound targets, just like a psychic shooting attack.

 

B- the fact that it happens during the assault phase would tell me (yes this is an interpretation) that the units function as if it were CC with regards to order of operations. Because it is now one assault and not 2 units shooting at another unit this seems the most reasonable option to me

Except that the order of operations is only half defined- it tells you when one squad uses CF (after moves, before blows) but it does not specify timing for additional units. It isn't "one assault". Its a multiple combat- 3+ units are involved. Ordinarily such things are well defined- all you need do is follow Initiative order. But this power happens before initiative values.

 

We have nothing to go on to determine how to implement multiple units using CF on the same target besides opinion (and apparently fluff :) )

 

It does not function like additional attacks in melee (no comparison of weapon skill, no initiative value) but it does function like a template shooting attack (models are automatically affected by it.)

 

Obviously we can add this to the list of corner cases that GW is going to have to FAQ for us because we can't agree on something.

Absolutely. They made a really cool power with few, if any, other incidences of in the entire 40k codex line, so there's no precedent to go off of, no BRB page of rules, and they also failed to fully flesh out how the power works in circumstances which can reasonably happen- like this one.

 

Quite simply, we have no information to decide one way or another except to follow the principles of sportsmanship and fair play. That mob is toast whether you kill 21 or 25 models with two applications of Cleansing Flame. Do you really need to figuratively slap your opponent in the face with it at the same time?

[Brother Dylan]

The reason they have to happen at the same time is because if you treat it like a shooting attack you break the assault phase. Rather than look at it as 2 purifiers charging a squad; imagine 2 squads of purifiers charging each other. If we take turns one squad has a very small chance of killing the other purifer squad before the other gets to cast their power.

[Something Wycked]

The reason they have to happen at the same time is because if you treat it like a shooting attack you break the assault phase. Rather than look at it as 2 purifiers charging a squad; imagine 2 squads of purifiers charging each other. If we take turns one squad has a very small chance of killing the other purifer squad before the other gets to cast their power.

The Assault phase doesn't get broken by staggering the attacks; they happen before Initiative rounds, so after CF is used the Assault phase continues as normal. It even says this at the end of CF's description: "... and then blows are struck as normal."

 

Take into account that they're happening simultaneously and the wiped out squad still uses their CF before they are removed from the table, which is only fair.

[Angelis Mortis]

You still have yet to show how the power doesn't follow the pattern I've shown. Thats what it says in the rule, thats how it follows according to assault rules. The way I've demonstrated again, doesn't do anything crazy and follows the rules as written. To deviate from what I've shown is deviating from the rules as written. Thats why we as telling you its cut and dry.

[Something Wycked]

Okay, if you want to play that game, lets play.

 

Cleansing Flame says you make your assault moves, the defender makes their reaction moves, and then you can test for Cleansing Flame. RAW does not say you can test for Cleansing Flame with multiple squads at the same time, so I say you cannot. You make your test with your first Purifier squad, roll the dice to wound the enemy unit, and remove casualties as normal. After that one use of Cleansing Flame, the last sentence in the power takes effect: and then blows are struck as normal. Now your other Purifiers/Crowe cannot use Cleansing Flame in the same assault, since we have moved on to the phase where blows are struck.

 

By Pure RAW, you only ever get one squad's Cleansing Flame, never two or more. Nowhere in that rule does it say that multiple Cleansing Flames can be used and nowhere does it say that multiple Cleansing Flames can be used simultaneously; your claim that "Thats what it says in the rule, thats how it follows according to assault rules" is flat wrong. There are no assault rules that cover Cleansing Flame. You inferred that all the Cleansing Flames are used simultaneously since they would all have to happen at the same time.

 

Let me say it again. RAW does not provide for multiple uses of Cleansing Flame.

 

As 40k is a permissive rules system, ie, you must be given permission before you are able to do something, you have not been given permission to use more than one Cleansing Flame in a single assault, much less use them all simultaneously.