Cleansing Flames

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

CF happens in the assault phase at step I10+. If a squad of Purifiers were assaulted by Banshees CF still occurs before the Banshees get to swing assuming the Purifiers pass their psychic test.

 

What you are inferring in regards to two or more squads of Purfiers casting CF simultaneously equates to two or more units of GKT not all being able to cast HH. It's exactly the same dynamic - what you are basically saying is that only squad can ever cast a single certain psychic power when they are all fighting in the same assault and that doesn't make any sense to me. The rules cannot and never will spell out exactly everything you can do as there are just too many combination of events that can occur.

 

G :teehee:

[Angelis Mortis]

Cleansing Flame says you make your assault moves, the defender makes their reaction moves, and then you can test for Cleansing Flame. RAW does not say you can test for Cleansing Flame with multiple squads at the same time, so I say you cannot.

 

Yes it does, very specifically so.

 

Page 31 of C:GK tells me that CF goes first before any blows are struck AND ALSO SAYS "Once the effects of CF have been resolved (and any casualties removed), blows are struck as normal. Unsaved wounds caused by CF are counted as having been caused in close combat for all purposes.

 

So by the RAW, in our scenario of 2 Purifiers squads (or whathave you) assaulting 1 Purifiers squad there is absolutely no reason they can not be combined and more importantly there is a reason they should be (because the rules say they go at the same time).

 

Then if you continue on to page 36 it tells you who strikes first. If the models have the same initiative value (in this case, its before blows are struck but after assault moves, not a number but a specific time in the phase) are made simultaneously.

 

IT SPECIFICALLY SAYS THEY GO AT THE SAME TIME. That means the results and effects must take into account a target squad without the effects of each other. So if one CF causes 10 casualties, the other CF goes off as if there are none. Then after all have done their business, you apply the casualties.

 

Spelled out, in both rules, without a doubt. CUT AND DRY.

 

Edit:Mistyped a word

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Remember he said you can't though. ;)

 

G :devil:

[Something Wycked]

CF happens in the assault phase at step I10+. If a squad of Purifiers were assaulted by Banshees CF still occurs before the Banshees get to swing assuming the Purifiers pass their psychic test.

CF does not happen at step I10+. It does go before Banshees, yes, but only because it does not happen during Initiative rounds- it happens just before blows are struck. If Cleansing Flame were to happen in Initiative rounds, the Banshee attacks would strike first.

 

I am not inferring anything; don't put words in my mouth ("what you are basically saying is that only squad can ever cast a single certain psychic power...") I am speaking about the RAW for Cleansing Flame only. Hammerhand does not have the line in Cleansing Flame- "... and then blows are struck as normal." The lack of this line in Hammerhand gives you permission to activate other uses of Hammerhand, since you are not directed to proceed directly to Initiative rounds like you are with Cleansing Flame.

 

Yes it does, very specifically so.

 

Page 31 of C:GK tells me that CF goes first before any blows are struck AND ALSO SAYS "Once the effects of CF have been resolved (and any casualties removed), blows are struck as normal. Unsaved wounds caused by CF are counted as having been caused in close combat for all purposes.

No, it doesn't, and you just proved half my point- emphasis mine. Once one Cleansing Flame is resolved, blows are struck. There is no time for any additional Cleansing Flames to be used.

 

The other half of the point is that Cleansing Flame does not say all units with Cleansing Flame may each use Cleansing Flame on every unit they are in base to base contact with.

 

So by the RAW, in our scenario of 2 Purifiers squads (or whathave you) assaulting 1 Purifiers squad there is absolutely no reason they can not be combined...

Yes, there is. Permissive rules system, and: Cleansing Flame does not say all units with Cleansing Flame may each use Cleansing Flame on every unit they are in base to base contact with.

 

...and more importantly there is a reason they should be (because the rules say they go at the same time).

That is an inference, that is not RAW. The rules do not say "all instances of Cleansing Flame happen simultaneously" because: Cleansing Flame does not say all units with Cleansing Flame may each use Cleansing Flame on every unit they are in base to base contact with.

 

Then if you continue on to page 36 it tells you who strikes first. If the models have the same initiative value (in this case, its before blows are struck but after assault moves, not a number but a specific time in the phase) are made simultaneously.

Initiative values are irrelevant; Cleansing Flame is activated before Initiative values are compared, else Banshees would strike before Cleansing Flame since they strike before everyone in initiative rounds.

 

IT SPECIFICALLY SAYS THEY GO AT THE SAME TIME. That means the results and effects must take into account a target squad without the effects of each other. So if one CF causes 10 casualties, the other CF goes off as if there are none. Then after all have done their business, you apply the casualties.

 

Spelled out, in both rules, without a doubt. CUT AND DRY.

THAT IS AN INFERENCE. Because Cleansing Flame does not say all units with Cleansing Flame may each use Cleansing Flame on every unit they are in base to base contact with.

 

...Notice the pattern here?

 

Inference does not equal RAW. Its not even RAI.

 

I'm about to coin a term here- RAII. You're using RAII. "Rules As I Infer." Or "Rules As I Interpret" or "Rules As I Intend" or "Rules As I Imagine," take your pick.

 

It is NOT spelled out in ANY rules. CUT AND DRY. .....Its really very easy to say that, and doesn't prove anything :devil:

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I think it's time to take a step back and chill now. You're quite zealous in regards to your interpretation - that's fine but I don't think it's helping you to really convince anyone you're in the right. It's really not that big a deal and to be quite frank I don't think this will be FAQd because it's just so obvious.

 

G :devil:

[Something Wycked]

I'm actually quite chill, I'm just replying in kind to what is being directed at me :devil:

 

This isn't my interpretation, by the way. I believe that RAI is that each unit with Cleansing Flame should be able to use it, in turn, much like if the power was happening in the shooting phase (with exceptions made for all of them happening simultaneously, ie, if a unit of Purifiers is wiped out before they activate their Cleansing Flame, they still get to do so.) I just take exception to Angelis Mortis', er... shall we say... Creatively powerful interpretation of the rules? And his insistence that its plain as day and anyone who thinks otherwise is blind.

 

If you read the whole topic start to finish, you'll see me start out unsure, and then as points are brought up (particularly in the OR forum thread) I develop my position. Due to Angelis Mortis continuing his "its obvious" path of discussion, I've taken to arguing a different angle- the RAW instead of the RAI I was using before. Just to expose how incorrect his interpretation is.

 

I agree, it probably won't be FAQ'd, but not because its "obvious" the way you think it is. I don't think it'll be FAQ'd because of how rare the situation might be regarded by GW, and they'll save themselves the trouble and just leave it to house rules or a die roll at tourneys.

[Angelis Mortis]

I think it's time to take a step back and chill now. You're quite zealous in regards to your interpretation - that's fine but I don't think it's helping you to really convince anyone you're in the right. It's really not that big a deal and to be quite frank I don't think this will be FAQd because it's just so obvious.

 

G :devil:

 

Agreed. Some people think RAW is Rules as Wanted, not Rules as Written. BTW, it is quite obvious, I think some people know that, they just like to be argumentative.

[Something Wycked]

Now that I have my book in front of me, I can show the RAW that you left out of your post.

 

This power can be used during the Assault phase in either player's turn, after assault moves have been made, but before any blows have been struck. If the Psychic test is passed, all enemy models that are part of the same assault suffer one wound on a roll of a 4+. Armor saves can be taken as normal.

Emphasis mine, of course.

 

"If the Psychic test is passed." Singular. RAW supports one use of Cleansing Flame per assault, not multiple instances in the same combat.

 

Your "cut and dry" RAW that "specifically" says multiple units of Purifiers can use their Cleansing Flame in the same assault simultaneously actually says the opposite; if you charge 2+ units of Purifiers into a mob of enemies, you get one Psychic test and one roll to wound each member of the mob.

 

It specifically doesn't matter how large the combat is- if you have one multiple assault that stretches across the board that involves 10 of your units and 20 of his, you get one use of Cleansing Flame and it affects all 20 of his units involved in that assault, every model of them, as "all enemy models that are part of the same assault" indicates.

[Angelis Mortis]

Now that I have my book in front of me, I can show the RAW that you left out of your post.

 

This power can be used during the Assault phase in either player's turn, after assault moves have been made, but before any blows have been struck. If the Psychic test is passed, all enemy models that are part of the same assault suffer one wound on a roll of a 4+. Armor saves can be taken as normal.

Emphasis mine, of course.

 

"If the Psychic test is passed." Singular. RAW supports one use of Cleansing Flame per assault, not multiple instances in the same combat.

 

Your "cut and dry" RAW that "specifically" says multiple units of Purifiers can use their Cleansing Flame in the same assault simultaneously actually says the opposite; if you charge 2+ units of Purifiers into a mob of enemies, you get one Psychic test and one roll to wound each member of the mob.

 

It specifically doesn't matter how large the combat is- if you have one multiple assault that stretches across the board that involves 10 of your units and 20 of his, you get one use of Cleansing Flame and it affects all 20 of his units involved in that assault, every model of them, as "all enemy models that are part of the same assault" indicates.

 

 

None of that matters one bit at all nor changes the method that is clearly laid out in both books. Now your really reaching, trying to add in your own rules where there are none. (BTW, you have a flaw in your interpretation of CF, it does not say "one test per assault" you said that. Its one psychic test PER USE OF THE POWER. It does not in anyway restrict the number of times it can be used. We have CUT AND DRY rules for that too. Page 21 of C:GK under Psychic Mastery levels, and page 50 of the BRB. I defy you to show me where it says "only one psychic power can be used in an assault".

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

So basically what he is saying is GK armies can only take one psychic test per turn. Am I missing something?

 

G :D

[Angelis Mortis]

So basically what he is saying is GK armies can only take one psychic test per turn. Am I missing something?

 

G

 

I think he's just being facetious if you ask me.

[Something Wycked]

I defy you to show me where it says "only one psychic power can be used in an assault".

I never said "only one psychic power can be used in assault" - that's a misinterpretation, or you've just forgotten what was said before. To wit:

 

Once the effects of CF have been resolved (and any casualties removed), blows are struck as normal.

While all of the other powers Grey Knights have that can be used in the Assault phase do not have that phrase in them, Cleansing Flame's RAW permits one use and then blows are struck as normal.

 

To summarize:

 

Cleansing Flame RAW permits one use ("If the Psychic test is passed", singular) and then Initiative rounds take place, leaving behind all other potential uses of Cleansing Flame ("Once the effects of Cleansing Flame have been resolved (and any casualties removed), blows are struck as normal.")

 

Nowhere in Cleansing Flame does it, as you claim, specifically allow multiple uses of the power to be used simultaneously. There is no provision for it in Codex: Grey Knights. Quoting Psyker Mastery Levels as support for your case fails; both types of units that have Cleansing Flame (Crowe and Purifiers) are only PML 1.

 

In no way am I saying only one of any kind of power can be used in the assault phase; that is a misrepresentation of my argument. That limitation is specific to Cleansing Flame due to the "... blows are struck as normal" clause.

 

The onus is on you to quote RAW that specifically allows multiple uses of Cleansing Flame to happen simultaneously. This is a permissive rule set; if you do not have permission, you cannot perform that action. The first sentence of Cleansing Flame does not satisfy this requirement:

 

This power can be used during the Assault phase in either player's turn, after assault moves have been made, but before any blows have been struck.

That line exists to define the timing of when the power can be used; it does not give permission for multiple uses of the power.

[number6]

I see the tone heating up toward flaming. Even one more step that direction and this topic will be shut down. :)

[BrotherWasted]

I defy you to show me where it says "only one psychic power can be used in an assault".

I never said "only one psychic power can be used in assault" - that's a misinterpretation, or you've just forgotten what was said before. To wit:

 

Once the effects of CF have been resolved (and any casualties removed), blows are struck as normal.

While all of the other powers Grey Knights have that can be used in the Assault phase do not have that phrase in them, Cleansing Flame's RAW permits one use and then blows are struck as normal.

 

To summarize:

 

Cleansing Flame RAW permits one use ("If the Psychic test is passed", singular) and then Initiative rounds take place, leaving behind all other potential uses of Cleansing Flame ("Once the effects of Cleansing Flame have been resolved (and any casualties removed), blows are struck as normal.")

 

Nowhere in Cleansing Flame does it, as you claim, specifically allow multiple uses of the power to be used simultaneously. There is no provision for it in Codex: Grey Knights. Quoting Psyker Mastery Levels as support for your case fails; both types of units that have Cleansing Flame (Crowe and Purifiers) are only PML 1.

 

In no way am I saying only one of any kind of power can be used in the assault phase; that is a misrepresentation of my argument. That limitation is specific to Cleansing Flame due to the "... blows are struck as normal" clause.

 

The onus is on you to quote RAW that specifically allows multiple uses of Cleansing Flame to happen simultaneously. This is a permissive rule set; if you do not have permission, you cannot perform that action. The first sentence of Cleansing Flame does not satisfy this requirement:

 

This power can be used during the Assault phase in either player's turn, after assault moves have been made, but before any blows have been struck.

That line exists to define the timing of when the power can be used; it does not give permission for multiple uses of the power.

 

Precisely. Two separate units with Cleansing Flame are each Psyker Mastery Level 1. Each may cast Cleansing Flame at the time it specifies to. The fact that they are Psyker level 1 MEANS I have permission to use their psychic power.

 

By claiming that RAW only allows one use of Cleansing Flame across your army, you ARE indirectly stating that another may not use this psychic power which it is equipped with.

 

By your logic, I cannot declare multiple 1 unit - vs- 1 unit charges with my multiple Purifier Squads and cast Cleansing Flame with the lot of them. Which is completely wrong. Each unit has charged, each unit makes a Psychic Test after assault move, before blows are struck. Precisely word as written.

 

Just because the test is done before blows are struck does not in anyway prohibit me from making simultaneous Psychic tests. My squads are Psykers, equipped with a Psychic Power. They have permission to each cast their psychic power because whether another unit fails the test is completely irrelevant.

 

By stating that "after the Psychic Test" refers to one psychic test across the army is a brazen manipulation of the fact that "the Psychic Test" refers to the test made by that unit alone. Your logic would prevent me from declaring a multiple charge with my GKs and casting Hammerhand with each of them. Hammerhand has the EXACT same timing as Cleansing Flame - 'after assault moves have been made, but before blows are struck".

 

If I can cast multiple Hammerhands, I can cast multiple Cleansing Flames. End of Story. Try this at a tournament and I'd have you banned.

[Prathios]

I see the tone heating up toward flaming. Even one more step that direction and this topic will be shut down. :)

 

I see the font heating up! ;)

[Sanct]

While all of the other powers Grey Knights have that can be used in the Assault phase do not have that phrase in them, Cleansing Flame's RAW permits one use and then blows are struck as normal.

 

Ultimately your point comes down on the idea that anyone reading the final paragraph of the Cleansing Flame rule interprets ''Once the effects of Cleansing Flame...''as specifically singular and not collective use of Cleansing Flame.

 

Following on from what your are suggesting would mean that you can only use one Cleansing Flame per army even if the combat for each purifier squad is independent. As a result any purifier on purifer combat would devolve into whoever shouted that they're casting Cleansing Flame first and loudest which for many breaks The Most Important Rule.

 

In my interpretation multiple Cleasing Flame are permitted because until all units have used theirs, Cleansing Flame is not resolved.

Interestingly this also answers of the thread starter as B.

[bl00d bath76]

everyone take a chill pill. Each unit can cast one psychic power. Therefore they can both cast cleansing flame. Simple...

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Agreed. :)

 

G :P

[Angelis Mortis]

everyone take a chill pill. Each unit can cast one psychic power. Therefore they can both cast cleansing flame. Simple...

 

Technically, if its mastery rank2 or higher it can cast more than one.

[BrotherWasted]

Pretty much.

[Brother Dylan]

While all of the other powers Grey Knights have that can be used in the Assault phase do not have that phrase in them, Cleansing Flame's RAW permits one use and then blows are struck as normal.

 

Ultimately your point comes down on the idea that anyone reading the final paragraph of the Cleansing Flame rule interprets ''Once the effects of Cleansing Flame...''as specifically singular and not collective use of Cleansing Flame.

 

Following on from what your are suggesting would mean that you can only use one Cleansing Flame per army even if the combat for each purifier squad is independent. As a result any purifier on purifer combat would devolve into whoever shouted that they're casting Cleansing Flame first and loudest which for many breaks The Most Important Rule.

 

In my interpretation multiple Cleasing Flame are permitted because until all units have used theirs, Cleansing Flame is not resolved.

Interestingly this also answers of the thread starter as B.

 

Thanks that was what I was trying to say a page ago but I think I made it to incoherent.

[Something Wycked]

If I can cast multiple Hammerhands, I can cast multiple Cleansing Flames. End of Story. Try this at a tournament and I'd have you banned.

Such heat in those words :lol:

 

The reality is I agree, every unit should be able to use Cleansing Flames. I just don't think they all happen simultaneously with the maximum dice thrown for each use of it if each unit of Purifiers is in contact with the same opponent, which was what the other party was arguing for- that and there was no other possible interpretation than they all throw 30 dice each to wound the Ork Boyz mob.

 

The reality is, there's a ton of potential interpretations. The RAW has no information about how to treat multiple instances of Cleansing Flame happening in the same assault. Thats all I was pointing out ;)

[bearden441]

yep multiple cleansing flames can happen, in fact in a tournament yesterday I saw the following happen:

 

Purifiers A Charged Wych Squad A

Purifiers B charged Wych Squad B

Purifiers C multi charged Wych Squads A and B

 

3 cleansing flames hit both squads because the assaults were linked leading to many dead wyches.

[BrotherWasted]

If I can cast multiple Hammerhands, I can cast multiple Cleansing Flames. End of Story. Try this at a tournament and I'd have you banned.

Such heat in those words ;)

 

The reality is I agree, every unit should be able to use Cleansing Flames. I just don't think they all happen simultaneously with the maximum dice thrown for each use of it if each unit of Purifiers is in contact with the same opponent, which was what the other party was arguing for- that and there was no other possible interpretation than they all throw 30 dice each to wound the Ork Boyz mob.

 

The reality is, there's a ton of potential interpretations. The RAW has no information about how to treat multiple instances of Cleansing Flame happening in the same assault. Thats all I was pointing out :lol:

 

That's because there is no other logical interpretation and the RAW tells you all you need to know. Two independant squads have that have the same psychic power make the tests at the same time and resolve them simultaneously before moving onto initiative rounds.

 

You resolve it identically to how you resolve multiple Hammerhands - the triggers are identical. Roll simultaneous psychic tests. Whether you roll one squad's wound-rolls first or do two squads at once wouldn't really matter, as long as the enemy is making their saves for the two Cleansing Flames at the same time.

 

Honestly, as long as both squads get to make their Cleansing Flames tests, it wouldn't matter to me if you roll the psychic and wound tests separately, as long as the armor/invuln saves are rolled at the same time - it could be a big amount of dice to do all at once.

[number6]

And we're done here.