Sternguard vs LotD (legion of the damned)

[Battle Brother Fischer]

Im running mostly Sternguards in my elite spots. having thoroughly read through my codex i have found that, in my opinion, the LotD is not worth fielding. Although they have a few shiny special rules, they are more expensive, don't have special ammunition and their HFs are WAY more expensive than that of the SGs. The reason i point out the HFs is that aren't the legion supposed to be big on barbecues? I mean they are all on fire and have the cool HF blister and the option of taking a flamer in a 5 man but SGs can not only take two where LotD can only take one, but the SG can take them cheaper too. Any arguments- i mean suggestions?

[Project.2501]

The main problem with LotD is the points cost HIKE for their invul save and slow-n-purposeful (shooting heavy weapon on the move but they aren't going anywhere fast once they arrive). That and the fact that they DS no matter what can lead to an expensive waste of points should you scatter badly (though the re-roll helps), or need them sooner rather than later.

 

Don't let the pictures of the metal squad fool you, you can use regular marines (though i'd kit-bash in som CSM parts) painted as LotD, meaning there's only their biker flame motif that signifies any sort of prevalence for fire (flamers/heavy flamers) which is more the Salamander's/Fire Lord's thing.

 

Otherwise, they're just another tac squad, a super (duper) tac squad. If you like tac squads (i do) go for it.

 

 

But in reality, for what they cost/do, Sternguard can do, cheaper, and more reliably.

 

In a really high points game (2k+ minimum imo), they could be a usefull backfield objective holder (which you would leave bare until the LotD arrive on it) while the rest of your army rushes forward to crush your opponent I'd imagine.

[greatcrusade08]

id recommend speaking to seahawk (mod of the ultramarines subforum), he gets alot of use and success from his.

 

remember they have the same survivability as hammernators (3++) with a similar damage output as a tac squad.. but they have relentless which means they can fire on the move, even when they deepstrike. they also have some really cool wargear options like a heavy flamer

[Shadowstalker Grim]

Admittedly LOTD are a rare squad to see. This is largely down to the price for what they do.

 

What makes them unique, as GC08 and project.2501 have pointed out, is that they pack an invulnerable save which makes them very hard to shift. This in many ways makes them an excellent unit for attracting fire and upgrading with lots of gear, as you can rely on them to save some of the firepower thrown at them.

 

 

They can also take some nasty weapons (like heavy flamers and multi-meltas) which can ruin someones day when these lads appear from nowhere and toast a vehicle he thought safe. The ability to walk and shoot means that their guns are quite a bit more deadly.

 

 

The downside to these guys is that they don't come cheap and have some rules that cause other problems. For instance, they HAVE to come in by deepstrike which can make it unreliable to make solid use of them. They also count as moving through difficult terrain which works against them.

 

 

If you want to take them, use them for drawing fire and clearing enemies away from vital points in the battlefield. Their invulnerable save and on the go weaponry means they should be able to work quite well at sweeping enemies away. Keep in mind that they are subject to rules which make them a little harder to control. If you want quite a general purpose squad, sternguard are probably a better choice...

[DarkGuard]

The major problem I find with LotD, is not their Deep Striking, which is quite accurate IIRC, but their cost, especially compared to other elites choices. Sternguard, Rifleman Dreads, MM Dreads in Pods, Hammernators, even Tactical Terminators are ahead of them, and are more cost-efficient, including at the things LotD can do. I think the best load-out I've heard for them is giving the Sergeant a combi-melta, and the squad a meltagun and MM. Thanks to relentless they can fire the MM on the move, and thanks to their accurate deep strike you can land them more or less where you want them, allowing them to smoke a tank. Give the Sergeant a power fist while you're at it, to take advantage of his WS5, you're expensive enough as it is what's another 25pts?

 

However, I think the major, major weakness is down to one model in the Space Marine army. The 100pt Libby with Null Zone. Costs much less, and makes them re-roll their invulnerable save. I'm pretty sure they don't have an armour save, just an invulnerable save, so forget plasma guns, a Tactical squad with rapid fire boltguns and a couple of flamers can take out a squad of these with Null Zone backup.

 

In the end, there are more survivable, more killy, and more point-efficient things in the Marines Codex. That being said, as GC08 said people are getting success out of them, so if you're really interested in running them it's best talking to them rather than everyone else.

[minigun762]

To use them best, I would take advantage of their Relentlessness (lots of "s" in there...)

 

While I see Darkguard's point about Melta death I would instead consider a Multi-Melta and Plasmagun combo. Same price but both weapons are effective out to 24" while still being mobile. Since you're deepstriking anyway and you have a 3++ save, drop these guys in midfield and use them as rally point or distraction. Not needing to worry about taking cover and the ability to hurt your opponent from 24" out means they will need to get dealt with at some point.

[Project.2501]

LotD are not Relentless. LotD are Slow-and-Purposeful. Though this inherently allows them to fire heavy weapons after moving just as relentless does, the two are not the same, and one should not try to rely on their mobility because of it.

 

Their Deeps Strike scatter re-roll does help alleviate this however.

[TyrionTheImp]

Their biggest problem is that their save is only 3++. Against most weapons in the game, they are just as tough as a tactical squad, but cost significantly more without any extra damage output. Torrent of fire will put them down and at their cost the loss will hurt.

[DarkGuard]

LotD are not Relentless. LotD are Slow-and-Purposeful. Though this inherently allows them to fire heavy weapons after moving just as relentless does, the two are not the same, and one should not try to rely on their mobility because of it.

 

Also, they do not Deep Strike any more accurately than any other DS unit, their re-roll is for whether they arrive or not.

 

Actually, being Slow and Purposeful confers on you the additional USR of being Relentless. Much like how Swarms gives you both Stealth and Vulnerable to Blasts/Templates. So they are Relentless, but they are also Slow and Purposeful.

 

Also, they don't re-roll the Reserve roll, but do indeed re-roll Deep Strike scatter, meaning they are more accurate (sort of). If you don't like your scatter re-roll it, and that could be more accurate than the one before. What they should have done is given them 1D6 scatter like the Blood Angels jump packs, that would have been more accurate.

 

I do like your configuration minigun762, probably works better as you have that flexibility on the drop. That being said, like what TyrionTheImp said, they just aren't that much more survivable than Tactical Marines against anything with a bad AP value. Terminators, in particular Hammernators are not just hard to shift because of their 3++, but also because of their 2+ against standard attacks.

[minigun762]

I do like your configuration minigun762, probably works better as you have that flexibility on the drop. That being said, like what TyrionTheImp said, they just aren't that much more survivable than Tactical Marines against anything with a bad AP value. Terminators, in particular Hammernators are not just hard to shift because of their 3++, but also because of their 2+ against standard attacks.

 

I understand about torrenting them down, but only to a point. a 3+ save still works 2/3 of the time. I can't remember the extra price of each LotD Marine but I'm sure its less then the cost of a single TH/SS Terminator so you can get more wounds on the table which is more useful for AP3 weapons.

 

TH/SS Terminators might be point for point more durable but their threat range is significantly less unless you're adding that Land Raider in whereas the LotD can threaten anything with 25-30" and significantly hurt units with 13-18" thanks to S&P/Relentless using the weapon loadout I mentioned.

 

I don't think they perform the same task/role. The Terminators are an assault deathstar unit and the LotD are a durable fire support squad. Compared to Sternguard you're gaining durability and heavy/special weapon flexibility but paying more points and losing the special ammo.

[DarkGuard]

They come in at 5pts more than a Sternguard. However, the big problem I think is still that torrenting. Sternguard can hide in Rhinos until they're needed, and so don't get hit by small arms. LotD don't have that option, and remember, they lose out on special ammo. That too can be massive for them, and contributes to their preference. And Sternguard get more special and heavy weapons, although admittedly they cannot fire their heavies on the move. Against bolt fire and similar guns they have the same durability as LotD, but I do agree that LotD stand up better against plasma fire etc. However, how much of that do we regularly see? In the end, it comes down to metagame and personal preference, but chances are you already know what you prefer.

[Project.2501]

LotD are not Relentless. LotD are Slow-and-Purposeful. Though this inherently allows them to fire heavy weapons after moving just as relentless does, the two are not the same, and one should not try to rely on their mobility because of it.

 

Also, they do not Deep Strike any more accurately than any other DS unit, their re-roll is for whether they arrive or not.

 

Actually, being Slow and Purposeful confers on you the additional USR of being Relentless. Much like how Swarms gives you both Stealth and Vulnerable to Blasts/Templates. So they are Relentless, but they are also Slow and Purposeful.

 

 

The point was to distinguish between the two. LotD are Slow and Purposeful, though this also confers relentless, calling them relentless outright is missleading, and I was attempting to avoid confusion by clarifying this.

 

Also, they don't re-roll the Reserve roll, but do indeed re-roll Deep Strike scatter, meaning they are more accurate (sort of). If you don't like your scatter re-roll it, and that could be more accurate than the one before. What they should have done is given them 1D6 scatter like the Blood Angels jump packs, that would have been more accurate.

 

 

I will double check when i get home, but in the meantime, if I've read it wrong, i'll go ahead and apologize ahead of time for the mistake.

[DarkGuard]

Fair enough, I'm just being pedantic (I believe that's the right word) because I'm annoyed at my luck today, should reign it in, sorry. You are quite correct that relentless is good, slow and purposeful though is a double edged sword.

 

The re-roll for scatter is definitely correct, I'd only just checked it when I posted the earlier post. Quite handy, but again I would have preferred 1D6" scatter like DoA.

[Project.2501]

No worries, i deal with the public/customers all day for my job, and it is extremely difficult at times to keep my frustrations with the masses from bleeding through into my posts.

 

I'll go ahead and edit my previous post(s).

 

And again, my apologies for the mistake.

[DarkGuard]

Dude, you don't have to apologize for a mistake, we all make them. The best thing about this forum is that normally someone will point it out to you, and through that you're less likely to make the mistake, and of course learns something new and all that. And apologies for derailing this thread a little.

[minigun762]

They come in at 5pts more than a Sternguard. However, the big problem I think is still that torrenting. Sternguard can hide in Rhinos until they're needed, and so don't get hit by small arms. LotD don't have that option, and remember, they lose out on special ammo. That too can be massive for them, and contributes to their preference. And Sternguard get more special and heavy weapons, although admittedly they cannot fire their heavies on the move. Against bolt fire and similar guns they have the same durability as LotD, but I do agree that LotD stand up better against plasma fire etc. However, how much of that do we regularly see? In the end, it comes down to metagame and personal preference, but chances are you already know what you prefer.

 

Oddly enough, I think one of the big advantage of Sternguard is the ability to pod in and absolutely fry a vehicle using combi-Meltas. The LotD can put out a more constant spray of high S shots but hitting a Land Raider with 5+ Melta shots is usually enough to ruin anyone's day.

 

Realistically, most people will pick TH/SS Terminators for durability and Sternguard for straight up firepower instead of the LotD which is kind of a hybrid between the two as its easier to use a specialist unit over a generalist one, doubly so when Tactical squads are the prime example of generalists.

 

Of course if you wanna be clever, you could try and coordinate a mixed Sternguard and LotD offensive with the LotD in front to provide a mobile cover save and assault tarpit for the Sternguard who can blast back with the 2+ wounding shots or the cover ignoring shots to minimize the drawbacks for shooting through a friendly unit.

[Captain Idaho]

The actual strength of Legion of the Damned is actually they are a reserve unit. Whilst not having a transport, they are generally only going to be shot on turn 2 if you went first at the earliest, all other times it's turn 3 onwards. This means they are arriving on the table after both armies have been shot up and your own army has units in threatening positions. Adding their numbers and tenacity to a close fire fight is where they excel.

 

Of course, I just can't bring myself to use them just because of their points cost, but I believe in the right army they could be useful. Seahawk does well with them.

[greatcrusade08]

some of the units in the C:SM dex have stengths that are not easy to distinguish on paper..

its easy to look at LotD and write them off as too expensive, but turn 2-3 onwards they arrive, can re-roll scatter on arrival and can use heavy flamers or multi-meltas on whatever they come across.

if they get assaulted then they have the durability of hammernators.

 

it took me a while to understand, but they are quite tasty

[DarkGuard]

I'm really interested as to how Seahawk runs the LotD. Does anyone have a link to an army list that he posted on the forums? I'm guessing the list may include Tigurius to ensure they turn up on time and where they are wanted.

[Paulochromis]

Seahawk's thread

I liked it so much, I went and bought the unit

[DarkGuard]

Thanks for that Paulochromis, a good read, it is good to see someone having a good experience with them.

[Morgernstein]

I've only ever played against power armour and both types of Eldar... Legion of the Damned are more than useless against power armour without the special ammo, but against Eldar their bolt guns chew through them, and their invulnerable saves completely wreck Eldar as their normal anti marines weapons rely on large amount of low AP guns... but the legion can soak up this easily. this is makes them so awesome that i"ve only lost one whole unit in a game in about 15 games... and that was when they scattered in range of 2 fire prisms, 10 fire dragons and 40 dire avengers..., you cannot survive 120 avenger shurikens 8 fusion guns and 2 fire pikes, and a 2 focussed fire prism shots...

[Shadowstalker Grim]

I think Morgenstein makes a very good point which is easy to overlook, sometimes certain weapons and units will be effective against a particular enemy as it is part of that weapons nature <_<