250pt Tactical Squad

[stuckinbermuda]

Trying to tweak my tactical squads to make the most/maximum use out of them taking into consideration their range and abilities and movement:

 

I've tried to keep the cost down to 250pts or less but at 250 it makes army building with two of these squads easy, a nice 500pt block of points to build on.

 

Full 10 man tactical squad @ 250pts.

Powerfist/Bolter on sergeant

Plasmagun/Multimelta

Rhino with additional Storm Bolter

I left the Bolter on the sergeant so he still has a shot at 24" with the rest of the squad (this used to require "True Grit"?), I've usually fielded a CC weapon or PW and a Bolt Pistol before and lost out on shooting at range, with PF he doesn't get an extra attack so nothing lost by having a Bolter over a Pistol.

 

I chose and Plamagun because of its range, while it is great getting a single shot off at 24" range after moving it is not much but still packs a nice punch and matches with the range and probable targets of the rest of the squad.

 

The Multimelta also has a 24" range which works well with the rest of the squad if they happen to be taking advantage of their max range by not moving.

 

I did not choose a Missile Launcher because while it has great reach out and touch range and versatility I don't think it matches the abilities of the rest of the squad, it would hold up nine marines shooting just to get one shot with a low chance of being effective.

 

Having the extra SB on the Rhino just makes it better and almost as good at anti-infantry as a plain HB Razorback for support, and it is better than the one shot missile because hopefully the rhino will be near the tactical squads targets and not needed the longer range and the tactical squad has enough anti-tank to deal with any nearby threats.

 

Input greatly valued, but my goal is always to try and build an army that is versatile and that is what will be built around these squads.

[DarkGuard]

That's pretty much the Tactical squad I took to my first tournament, minus the additional storm bolter on the Rhino. And it's also similar to the Tactical squad I'm currently using, although I have changed them a few times since.

 

Now, to comment on your squad. Plasma gun and multi-melta matches up really well, especially out of the top hatch of a Rhino. Both have similar targets, namely elite units, light tanks and MCs, and both have dissimilar targets, with the plasma gun being better vs MEQ thanks to shots in rapid fire range, while the MM is better against all tanks in general thanks to additional strength, melta and AP1. Both operate at 24" range with the boltguns, so if you're forced to disembark your bolters match up with them in range, and both have a best range of 12".So no arguments there. Plasma and MM deal with elite units and vehicles, boltguns deal with infantry, a good all rounder. But then we get to the power fist.

 

You know, I used to really like the power fist. And I still do, but not on Tactical squads. For 25pts you can give your Sergeant a power weapon that doubles his strength but makes him strike at I1. And as he's a unit upgrade he's "hidden", in that you need to take out everyone else before you can stop his fist. Used to think it was so good. But then we get down to the facts. Yes he's S8 and ignored armour saves. He's also WS4 with only 2 attacks. Most of the metagame tends to be flooded with MEQ, so if you didn't charge, and with plasma guns it's unlikely you did, you can only expect to hit once. You can expect to drop the dude you hit, but you'll only get. And if you have my luck you'll a 1 for that anyway.

 

So a 25pt upgrade making back roughly 15pts a turn, not impressive in my mind. Especially when you consider it doesn't add much. Now consider the following. You get charged by Hammernators. You're lucky and drag one down in your first initiative step. You might take another with the power fist if your opponent is unlucky. But you're still going to lose most of your squad, if not most of them. The power fist hasn't done much. Or Honour Guard, Idaho Pattern. 10 relic blade attacks and 20 power weapon attacks on the charge. That's at least 10 kills. Your normal attacks will be lucky to cause damage, again maybe one dude. And your power fist didn't swing. Waste of points.

 

Of course, it's a deterrent though. But not for those big units. I tell you I have no qualms about putting my Chapter Master in base contact with your power fist. You'll only get one wound, I've got a 3++, and you're not swinging anyway because I slaughtered the entire squad beforehand. Dreads though, good against them? I watched my friend the other day wail on my Dread with a WS5 thunder hammer (Death Company). My Dread survived. Again, in a Tactical squad, one hit, and you need a 4 to glance. If you pen you need another 5 or 6, not amazing odds.

 

And then lets go to the other end of the spectrum. Imperial Guard. You do the sensible thing and assault their 20 man squad. Power fist surely helps here doesn't it? Thing is, again it doesn't add much. Sure you can kill 1-2 guys easily with it. But thanks to their T3 and 5+ save your normal attacks will likely have the same effect, regardless. 10 bolt pistol shots, followed by 21 S4 combat attacks hitting on 3s, wounding on 3s, and saving on 5s will mess squads up, you don't need the power fist.

 

So what I'm trying to say, is that you do not need the power fist. Against the big stuff it won't change anything. Against the small stuff it doesn't make a difference. It has a niche, and even then it's not amazing for that niche. And that niche and the idea of deterrence is not worth 25pts a model I'm sorry. You've said that you're including 2 of these squads, well that's 50pts right there, better spent elsewhere. Tactical squads don't want to be in assault with the big stuff. Use combat tactics and pull yourself out of there, followed by rapid firing the unit you just ran from.

 

As for the additional storm bolter. I don't rate them. I know some do, but I don't. I'm moving my Rhino, and few are the times when I wished I had an extra two boltgun shots. You can still only fire if you moved 6" or less, and ideally it'll go 12" move, pop smoke. Then midfield shooting from top hatch, or move another 12" and disembark, likely followed in later turns by Rhino dying. You don't need it, but if you have 10pts left over it's something you can add, but not a staple.

 

As for the squad I use that is similar? 10 men, combi-plasma, plasma gun, multi-melta, Rhino. Comes in at 225pts. I use two in 1000pts to 1750pts (and likely 2000pts), meaning it costs 450pts. I saved 50pts from those power fists, handy for upgrading my MM ABs to MM/HF Speeders. By the way, I don't claim invention for this squad, I lay that at the feet of Mysticaria, who uses this squad a lot for the firepower they can dish out.

 

The other midfield squad that can sort of handle anything is another favourite, basically the above but trade out plasma for flamer, combis and all. 10pts left, and 2 flamer templates will cause a lot of wounds that need saving. The plasma variant is steadier, but doesn't have the raw destructive potential of the flamer variant. I could easily kill 3 guys with plasma fire, but my opponent could fail 4 saves from the 10 I gave him from 2 flamer shots, you get the idea. Either does well as a basic building block, depends on what you face often, and what your army needs. Mines got plenty of anti-infantry, so it's plasma pattern for me. If I use less anti-horde and more anti-MEQ at some point it'll switch back to flamer pattern.

 

Sorry for the long wall of text, but I hope it's helped.

[Mysticaria]

If it absolutely has to be 250 points... trade the storm bolter for a combi-plasma. Then you have the standard Plasma pattern tactical squad (225 points) plus a powerfist. Multimelta, plasmagun, combiplasma is a good loadout for a midfield tactical squad.

 

-Myst

[stuckinbermuda]

I've already built these squads but haven't ordered the extra parts to make the extra storm bolters yet and I still need to remove the pistols and replace them with bolters, so I have some wiggle room to make some changes, while I'm at it I have a third tactical squad which is currently set up with a PF/Flamer/HB/Rhino.

 

Switching to PW/Combi-Plasma, Dropping the extra SB and adding melta bombs for anti dreadnought help and throwing the remaining 5pts on a dozer blade keeps it at 250

 

The PW/Combi-Plasma combo is actually what I chose for my sternguard :lol:

[minigun762]

I agree with Darkguard that Power Fists are kinda wasted on Tac squads. I like the Power Weapon instead because its cheaper and helps to bulk up the fairly weak assault abilities of the Tac squad against other infantry. I use the reverse logic for my CSMs because the base 2 attacks is enough to handle infantry so I bring the Fist for the big nasties or to support the 2x Meltaguns for busting tanks.

 

EDIT: Vanilla Marines also get the chance to fall back from a combat that they can't win (like against a Wraithlord) instead of being stuck in.

[TyrionTheImp]

Definitely get the Combi-plasma. 1 shot with it doesn't seem like much, but most of the time it makes its points back. I don't like getting double storm bolters, or any Rhino upgrades to be honest. Rhinos are there block shots against my Tacticals as long as they can (and with 4 rhinos it can be a lot), and die, hopefully becoming cover/terrain.

 

Powerfists are great if you're using a Special Character that gives Stubborn instead of Combat Tactics. With Combat Tactics you can break out of Close Combat (or at least try to), so having that Power Fist isn't essential, and simply won't help you that much. With Stubborn however, you're almost impossible to break in combat, so you want your Pfist to take down as much as you can before it dies, or possibly even turn the tide in your favor.

 

When I make tactical squads I tend to avoid making them "do everything" simply because 250 points is not something I want to spend on a troops choice.

[stuckinbermuda]

I am going to try it out in a 1000pt game, will post list in this space... but basically using a Librarian, CC scouts in storm + sniper scouts with Telion, Thunderfire, tactical squad and tactical terminators. I'm trying to use elements I don't usually use to get better at using them and also try new tactics that I hope will work better in 5th, heck I never even used a librarian in either 3rd or 4th editions :)

[DarkGuard]

I can't see power weapon/combi-plasma being too amazing. I always thought that the main advantage of a power weapon was less it's chance to strike at initiative order, but rather the fact that paired with a bolt pistol it gives +1A, which can make a difference. If you could take a lightning claw I'd understand lightning claw/ combi-plasma in Tactical squads, and possibly be tempted to try it myself.

[minigun762]

I can't see power weapon/combi-plasma being too amazing. I always thought that the main advantage of a power weapon was less it's chance to strike at initiative order, but rather the fact that paired with a bolt pistol it gives +1A, which can make a difference. If you could take a lightning claw I'd understand lightning claw/ combi-plasma in Tactical squads, and possibly be tempted to try it myself.

 

+1 to that. You take a Combi-Weapon with a Power Fist because you can't get that +1A anyway.

[stuckinbermuda]

I can't see power weapon/combi-plasma being too amazing. I always thought that the main advantage of a power weapon was less it's chance to strike at initiative order, but rather the fact that paired with a bolt pistol it gives +1A, which can make a difference. If you could take a lightning claw I'd understand lightning claw/ combi-plasma in Tactical squads, and possibly be tempted to try it myself.

 

Be nice to have more options for sure, especially Lightening Claws for sergeants. I feel very constricted for options in squads and for upgrades in general, even more so for my HQ choices. Missing the days of paying for grenades :lol:

 

48pts. Power Fist/Bolter = Good shooting at range, rapid fire, 2 S8 no save attacks at I1 but a good chance of hitting a dread in CC using WS and two attacks against vehicles with good chance to do something + good for Death or Glory.

 

(if adding a Combi-Plasma it would be 58 as well but I think a a bolter is enough with less risk since a plasma gun and its risk are on a regular, cheaper marine)

 

58 pt. Power Weapon/Plasma Pistol + Melta Bombs= Really Good shooting at close range but risk of getting hot, 3 S4 no save attacks at I4, only hit a dread on a 6 in CC unless immobile, one chance to hit vehicles but good chance to do something.

 

(Did not do PW/Combi because it would not get extra attack)

 

Anyone know how to work out the "mathhammer" for the sergeant options to price ratio?

[DarkGuard]

Take the plasma pistol out and you have two of the most overused, cost-ineffective Tactical squad Sergeant load out. People just don't use plasma pistols anymore. 15pts for one shot before you charge, and of course the risk of frying your expensive model with a power sword? No thanks.

 

Both of these Sergeants are just too expensive for what they do. Consider 26pts for a Sergeant with boltgun and bolt pistol. Bog standard, and suplements that which Tactical squads do best, close range shooting. Or, 26pts for a Sergeant with bolt pistol and chainsword, this time he trades a bolt shot for being slightly more effective in combat, the first option is better though.

 

Or, 36pts for a Sergeant with combi-weapon of choice, either making up a weakness that the Tactical squads have, or matching the special weapon they have, making them twice as effective for that one turn only. Well worth it for the damage they can dish out in one turn.

 

IMO, once we're looking at 50pts for a single wound model with only power armour, we've done something wrong. Even Terminators are only 40pts, and they're much better protected than a Tactical Marine. Sergeant with power weapon and bolt pistol costs 41pts? Awesome, my Honour Guard model costs 35pts. The best cost-effective choice is the combi-weapon, but power fists aren't bad in that odd squad, just not in all of them.

[minigun762]

Take the plasma pistol out and you have two of the most overused, cost-ineffective Tactical squad Sergeant load out. People just don't use plasma pistols anymore. 15pts for one shot before you charge, and of course the risk of frying your expensive model with a power sword? No thanks.

The plasma pistol is pretty damn horrible. Its never a competitive option outside of maybe assault marine squads. If it was 10 points like the IG one, I think I could see taking it maybe.

 

Or, 36pts for a Sergeant with combi-weapon of choice, either making up a weakness that the Tactical squads have, or matching the special weapon they have, making them twice as effective for that one turn only. Well worth it for the damage they can dish out in one turn.

 

This is probably the best option overall, especially if that combi-weapon is a melta or flamer. 0% chance to hurt yourself and both weapons are short ranged which means you probably will only get to fire them once anyway. Plus the destruction of a piece of heavy armor or the mass thinning of a large horde squad (what melta and flamers do respectively) is usually important to the survival of that Tac squad and/or your overall plans.

 

IMO, once we're looking at 50pts for a single wound model with only power armour, we've done something wrong. Even Terminators are only 40pts, and they're much better protected than a Tactical Marine. Sergeant with power weapon and bolt pistol costs 41pts? Awesome, my Honour Guard model costs 35pts. The best cost-effective choice is the combi-weapon, but power fists aren't bad in that odd squad, just not in all of them.

I wouldn't say that the power weapon is bad. Point for point comparison is difficult when the Sarge has up to 9+ wounds that you have to eat up prior to dying, so thats a fair chance for doing some extra damage and it does help boost the weak assault capabilities of the Tac squad. When you figure that the other 9 Marines will only kill 0.75 MEQs in close combat and the Sarge himself will kill 0.75 MEQs you can see that the power weapon effectively doubles your ability to hurt other Marines. True its less significant against Orks/Wyches but it helps even more against Terminators. It might not be optimal, but its far from bad, I guess thats my point.

[stuckinbermuda]

I guess my reasoning for being PF happy is that I never seemed to have them when I needed them in the past, plus I'm building an IF sucessor chapter and a PF just look cool too. The "hidden" PF does have its charms.

 

As it stands I'm going to test out the PW/Combi-Plama/Melta bomb sergeant first, in 1000pts, and then try PW/BP/Melta bomb sergeants in all three tactical squads in a bigger game and see how they perform. I just want to settle on the best options before I start painting details and commit to the wargear. I'm hoping to lean more towards a shooty playstyle since I've had poor luck with CC and there are a lot of ork, eldar and nid players in my group besides MEQs.

[TyrionTheImp]

Plasma Pistols and Power Weapons simply are just too costly. For 15 points you could buy something in other places that would be more beneficial. If they cost 10 points each, I'd consider them more often, but as is, no way.

 

I really wish Tactical Sarges could take Lightning Claws. Lightning Claw + Combi-weapon would be perfect together for them, even if it is costly.

[DarkGuard]

@ stuckinbermuda, if you're taking a combi-weapon and combat weapon, stick with the power fist. You lose the attack anyway, and that's the advantage of taking a power weapon, an extra attack. And cheapness I suppose.

 

@ TyionTheImp, truthfully I'd never run the numbers beforehand on the effectiveness for a power weapon, and it's quite interesting to see it doubles damage output. Of course, when the damage is that low, I'm not sure if its worth it still. Definitely in Combat Tactics armies falling back is the better option.

[stuckinbermuda]

Ah, probably should mention I have already converted a Pedro Kantor model to use later as my Chapter Master, eventually in larger games, so eventually my army will lose combat tactics at which point the power fists might be more required.

 

But as I was just thinking... With the cost being more than a terminator (40pts.) to have a PF and SB (58pts.) it would really suit the army to have the sergeants kitted out to match Pedro to some degree, and if the sergeants were veterans with terminator honors they might prefer the standard terminator weapon systems... just from a fluff perspective anyway, but a PF/SB (thinking of using the SBs from the new Grey knights that look a bit like Pedro's) would be a pretty useful set up, going to have to try it out as well I guess <_< Three trial games to play now...

[DarkGuard]

Well if you're using Pedro you could get some use out of power fists. I wouldn't equip them like him, as in power fist and storm bolter, you'll get better use out of a power fist and combi weapon, close up you have the same amount of shots, and you can hit more infantry, take out a tank, smoke some Marines.

 

Actually, I do believe that Pedro might actually make power fists on Tactical squads worth it. You can't run from combat and with Stubborn Ld9 you won't be breaking for a while, so having a power fist is handy. And if Pedro is central to the rest of your army you've got that +1A aura, meaning your Tactical Marines get double the attacks, and your power fist has 3 attacks, 4 if it charges. A couple of plasma pattern Tactical squads, plus a Sternguard unit or two with Pedro in one of them could be a good solid midfield firebase, it won't go anywhere, and it'll do damage in both shooting and assault. Could be worth playing around with.

[stuckinbermuda]

So far I've only built one 10 man stearnguard squad with all bolters and a sergeant with a PW/combi-plasma, if I drop the sergeant model to make room in pod for PK then I could use him on one of my tacticals instead of a fist, in the squad with flamer/HB.

 

I kinda envisioned bringing PK and stearnguard in by pod with a locator and then DS terminators to them if needed or my suicide storm with a MM and CC scouts with combi-melta and fist. I have gone overboard with elite choices and already have the termies, stearnguard, a venerable dread and two regular dreads. I figure it is good for variety and also for planetstrike and apocalypse games. So far just over 3500 built and primed and about half basecoated so far.

 

From the feedback I think I'm going to be keeping the fists and adding stormbolters (the Grey knight ones). This keeps the squad at 250pts when embarked I can fire the rhino's SB, the sergeant's SB and the plasmagun which is not bad and still have the melta option, then when disembarked and stationary I will have a serious amount of firepower at 24"

[DarkGuard]

I would seriously reconsider the storm bolters. While looking cool, they are the same points as a combi-weapon, which offers far, far more than a storm bolter. Chances are you'll be in rapid fire range much of the time, so both the boltgun and the storm bolter will have two shots. But the combi-bolter also has that extra shot. A combi-plasma would go much better with your plasma gun/MM squad than a storm bolter.

[Project.2501]

PW/BP/Melta bomb sergeants in all three tactical squads in a bigger game and see how they perform.

 

I use 3 tac squads with Sgts that have the exact same wargear and stand behind their effectiveness.

 

 

As to the 'most versatile 250pt tac squad:

 

10man Tac squad

Flamer

Lascannon

Sgt. w/Pwr Wpn

Sgt. w/BP

Sgt. w/MB

Rhino

Hunter-Killer

Dozer Blade

 

All IMO.