Strike squads

[number6]

I must admit this is the first time I've heard of multiple folks not agreeing with my interpretation and that of my game group! ;)

 

I guess this really is a case where GW's clarifications are not.

 

Perhaps best to discuss with opponent? I would definitely prefer to have it play out as others have explained it. But it's so ingrained in my group otherwise that shy of crystal clear language from GW, it will be beyond my reach no matter what I think of it! :lol:

[TyrionTheImp]

Of course I would discuss it with my opponent first, however I am extremely inclined to go with my interpretation and would certainly offer my explanations and text from the rulebook and codices that support it. Maybe you should try the same? I did list the pages and quotes from them for a reason. ;)

[number6]

Of course I would discuss it with my opponent first, however I am extremely inclined to go with my interpretation and would certainly offer my explanations and text from the rulebook and codices that support it. Maybe you should try the same? I did list the pages and quotes from them for a reason. ;)

You definitely have quality logic on your side. :tu:

[worloch]

I had some success this past weekend with the 5 man w/ 1 MCHammer on Justicar and 1 Psycannon in Razorback w/ Psybolt ammo Strike Squad.

 

Cheap enough for me to take 4x of that squad make up @ 2000 points, and still have points left over for some cool stuff. Strength 6 Twin-Linked Heavy Bolters can actually be quite threatening at 42" effective range (36" + 6" move) and having 4 of them available means you can focus or spread fire as needed.

 

Same goes for the GK's in the SS. You can keep them in to move 12" and go for objectives, or get them out to shoot or possibly (if the odds are in your favor) assault. Focus or Spread as required, especially the Psycannon shots.

 

Psybolt Ammo on the squad is too expensive if you're going MSU though, so skip that, and the weapon upgrades generally aren't worth it w/ only 1 attack base.

 

Personally, I wouldn't run my SS's as Deep Strike unless I could have a high level of assurance of bringing them all in on the same turn. That means at least 1, if not 2 HQ's on the board with Psychic Communion (which means no Librarian, which I like to have).

 

 

I have also tried the 10 man w/ 1 MCHammer on Justicar and 2x Psycannon in Rhino, which provides more options in that you can combat squad, and psybolt ammo for the squad can be arguably worthwhile.

 

 

I think these will be the only 2 ways I will run my SS's, personally.

[TyrionTheImp]

Personally, I wouldn't run my SS's as Deep Strike unless I could have a high level of assurance of bringing them all in on the same turn. That means at least 1, if not 2 HQ's on the board with Psychic Communion (which means no Librarian, which I like to have).

 

I would never recommend having them ALL deep strike, but a single squad of 10 that combat squads can be a great late game objective grabber if you use psychic communion.

[worloch]

Personally, I wouldn't run my SS's as Deep Strike unless I could have a high level of assurance of bringing them all in on the same turn. That means at least 1, if not 2 HQ's on the board with Psychic Communion (which means no Librarian, which I like to have).

 

I would never recommend having them ALL deep strike, but a single squad of 10 that combat squads can be a great late game objective grabber if you use psychic communion.

 

I don't want to get in to the great "Deep Strike w/ Combat Squad" debate, but I can concede that perhaps having a single SS of some sort DS as an objective grabber could work providing you've got Psychic Communion available.

[Fred Johnson the 3rd jr]

You deploy a unit into Reserves instead of deploying them on the table.

 

Sorry, this is 100% incorrect. The rulebook does not say this, and you are adding language to get to this result. What the rulebook says, on pg 94, is:

 

"...players may choose not to deploy one or more of the units in their army and instead leave them in reserve."

 

 

The reasonable interpretation here is certainly not the one you give as the rulebook clearly says they are not deployed, but instead left in reserve. Later on in the same page, after reserve rolls are explained, the player "picks any one of the units arriving and deploys it." Only then is the unit deployed, according to the rules.

[Fred Johnson the 3rd jr]

I would never recommend having them ALL deep strike, but a single squad of 10 that combat squads can be a great late game objective grabber if you use psychic communion.

 

Sounds good to me. Although I reckon someone can make a decent DS list where more of the army is deep striking than not. Although I feel like in most cases in a list like that it is probably better to keep your SSs at 10 men.

[Master Toddius]

This Friday I'm going to try out my 5th edition GK's for the first time. My 2k list includes 2x Laserback 6 man Strike squads. 4x Halberds, Hammer, and Psycannon each. I know its 40 pts to make them I6 but it also means I can wipe out equivalent marine squads in CC before they can hit back. I6 is so crucial to GK success IMHO. Because at the end of the day they're simply T4 3+ marines.

 

The rest of the list is Draigo, 6 Palies, 6 GKT's, Jump-Dreadknight w/GS + HP, and LRC. 80pts for ranged anti armor is a steal for grey knights. I'll probably look at psyrifle dreads in the future but for now I want to play with the new toys.

 

Every Squad in the force is armed with Halberds Hammers and Psycannons. I6 FTW!!

 

And i'm facing DE, by the way. Should be fun. :)

[DarkGuard]

Against MEQ you'll be hard pressed to wipe out the entire squad on the charge with just one power weapon attack, even with storm bolters and Hammerhand. Remember, most MEQ squads run at 10 man. If your opponents use MSU though then you should do OK, but only on charge. For that reason I prefer swords though, halberds are too pointy, and that's 40pts you've given up that could be spent elsewhere.

 

I like the rest of your list though, when I get round to Grey Knights I'm thinking of a Terminator heavy force, bored of Rhinos :ph34r:.

[Inquisitor Fox]

Units that have purchased a dedicated transport and are mounted in it (true for any unit in a transport it can start the game in) are rolled for as a single unit. If the unit is not riding in the dedicated transport, it's 2 units, because the Dedicated Transport and the unit it was purchased for count as 2 units. One unit riding in a transport counts as one unit for the sake of reserves. This also means a dedicated transport can start in reserve, and the unit can start on the board, or vice versa, and they can arrive through different means.

I disagree here... a dedicated transport and the unit which purchased it are still a single force org choice, and you roll for reserves by force org choices. The precedent here is Codex: Imperial Guard, where an entire platoon comes on at once (with attached specialists and/or heavy weapons as well as transport vehicles). The portion about a unit riding in a transport IMO is more for a unit riding in an un-dedicated transport, such as a unit embarked in a Land Raider, rather than a dedicated transport which is considered part of the unit it was bought for until it really hits the table where other units can now ride in it. It's worth a seperate kill point, but for deployment and reserve purposes it's one unit along with it's corresponding infantry choice.

 

That's always been my understanding anyway.

 

EDIT: I suppose it's not really entirely by force org choices.. rather that a unit with a dedicated transport is one unit, which is worth two kill points. It takes a single force org choice, is a single roll for reserves, do not have to be deployed at the same point (the transport can deploy several feet away from its unit should it desire), and once it hits the table the transport can transport anyone. The transport may not begin the game with any unit embarked other than it's own however.

[Inquisitor Fox]

As a bit of clarification, I thought I'd rattle off some various combinations as well as my understanding as to how you would deploy / roll for them via reserves.

 

* Single Strike Squad: 1 reserve roll, could then deploy by walking on or deep striking as either one single unit or two combat squads.

 

* Single Strike Squad with dedicated transport (Rhino or Razorback): 1 reserve roll, could then deploy by walking on as a single unit along with transport vehicle (which does not have to deploy in the same spot), as a single unit embarked in said transport, or as two combat squads with one embarked in transport and the other walking on from the same and/or different point, or as two combat squads walking on in addition to said dedicated transport all from the same and/or different points of your deployment table edge.

 

* Single Strike Squad embarked in a Land Raider: 1 reserve roll deployed from table edge embarked in the transport.

 

Note, this unit cannot be deployed disembarked, because disembarked they are actually 2 reserve rolls.

 

* Single Strike Squad with attached Character, embarked in a Storm Raven that is also carrying a Dreadnought: 1 reserve roll, deployed as one unit all embarked in transport.

 

If these units were NOT in the transport, it is actually 3 reserve rolls all seperate (unless you un-attach the Character from the Strike Squad, in which case it is 4 reserve rolls)

 

 

The transport being dedicated makes it part of the unit, which makes it a single reserve roll whether or not the unit is embarked. The embarked status only makes a difference for undedicated transports. This is also why a dedicated transport may only begin the game with it's dedicated unit embarked and no others.

[TyrionTheImp]

I wholly disagree about Dedicated Transports coming in with the unit they were purchased. The rulebook clearly states that they do not use a Force Organization slot, but are counted as separate units otherwise, and under Reserves it says "roll for each unit" nothing about Force Organization slot. Platoons are an exception as it is stated in the Codex: Imperial Guard, but I would not apply it to any other unit in that book, nor any other books as it is not anywhere in the BRB.

 

As a bit of clarification, I thought I'd rattle off some various combinations as well as my understanding as to how you would deploy / roll for them via reserves.

 

* Single Strike Squad: 1 reserve roll, could then deploy by walking on or deep striking as either one single unit or two combat squads.

 

Correct.

 

* Single Strike Squad with dedicated transport (Rhino or Razorback): 1 reserve roll, could then deploy by walking on as a single unit along with transport vehicle (which does not have to deploy in the same spot), as a single unit embarked in said transport, or as two combat squads with one embarked in transport and the other walking on from the same and/or different point, or as two combat squads walking on in addition to said dedicated transport all from the same and/or different points of your deployment table edge.

 

Unless the whole unit is embarked onto the Transport, it is 2 reserve rolls as they are each individual units. You cannot have a combat squad embarked onto the transport because that would imply breaking into Combat Squads in reserve which is according to the C:SM FAQ illegal. If you combat squad, neither can start in the transport, and the transport must be rolled for separately. However, each unit can be placed in a different spot for Deep Strike, or walking in from board edge, but both must arrive through same means whether walking or deep striking.

 

The transport being dedicated makes it part of the unit, which makes it a single reserve roll whether or not the unit is embarked. The embarked status only makes a difference for undedicated transports. This is also why a dedicated transport may only begin the game with it's dedicated unit embarked and no others.

 

It doesn't make it "part of the unit" it's clearly stated that Dedicated Transports don't use any Force org slots, but count as separate units.

[Inquisitor Fox]

Alright, so having gotten a chance to peer through my rulebook extensively (well really looking for the two sections to try and clarify this in my brain) it appears I was wrong and TyrionTheImp has the right of it. I guess I must plead edition change getting me all mixed up!

 

In the skinny Black Reach Book (which is what I use cause it was cheaper and came with a slew of Marines) on page 67 under Dedicated Transports it specifies that it is selected with the unit, and that it does not use up a slot on the Force Org Chart (no change here). The kicker is on page 92 under Deploy Forces then Multiple Unit Choices:

 

"Note that occasionally the Codexes allow the player to include several units in his army at the cost of a single force organisation slot (like dedicated transports, etc.). Apart from being bought as a single choice, these units operate and count as separate units in all respects."

 

This I remember as being markedly different than past editions, so... yeah, my examples are partially incorrect. Apparently I'll have to check the books more carefully when edition changes happen again next!

[DevianID]

Without getting too OT about the deepstrike thing, I wanted to put my 2 cents.

 

When deepstriking, you place a single model, roll scatter, and then deploy the deepstriking unit around the initial guy. At this point is when you should combat squad IMHO. So your 2 strike squads would look like one big 10 man squad, but you would denote which models were combat squadded off.

 

If you take the opinion that both the 2 squads deepstrike in seperate locations, then you have in fact combat squadded them BEFORE deployment I belive. Deployment for deepstrike comes after the initial model is placed, correct? The Nova FAQ, which I abhor, allows a 10 man combat squading unit to deploy in 2 locations, instead of 1 place as 10 models that you then seperate out. This means half the squad, on mishap, can go back in reserve, leaving you with the same issue of having half a combat squad in reserve and half deployed on the table. (they also let you split the squad before deployment for dawn of war, putting half on the board and half walking on turn 1.)

 

Anyway, onto the OT. I dislike strike squads, despite them not being bad. They are like tacticals in many ways, not terrible but not exceptional. If you are taking strikes it is usually because you have not taken one of the HQs that give you better troops--Coteaz/Crowe/Draigo. In that case, I second what others have said, 10 with 2 pcannons in a rhino or 5 with a pcannon in a razorback. I dislike the heavy bolter razorback, I think either the assault cannon with psy ammo, or the lasplas/twinlas are better options. Always take a hammer. I recommend never mastercrafting the hammer, instead pay 5 more points and buy another hammer. Even on 5 man squads 2 hammers I feel is the way to go instead of mastercrafting 1 hammer. First, if you perils you dont lose your only hammer. Second, with 2 hammers + hammerhand you can hit 2 seperate vehicles with s10 autopens.

 

As for s5 bolters, they can be great on a deepstriking unit. Dropping in on av10 side/rear armor really lets those bolters flex their muscles. Like, say versus chimeras. 24 inch threat means you can drop in a safe zone 15 or so inches away and still be shooting at 100%, plus you are basicly immune to counterassault if you dont scatter forward.

[Captain Idaho]

I wholly disagree about Dedicated Transports coming in with the unit they were purchased. The rulebook clearly states that they do not use a Force Organization slot, but are counted as separate units otherwise, and under Reserves it says "roll for each unit" nothing about Force Organization slot. Platoons are an exception as it is stated in the Codex: Imperial Guard, but I would not apply it to any other unit in that book, nor any other books as it is not anywhere in the BRB.

 

If you read the Reserves special rules, page 94, it states and I quote:

 

"Similarly, the player must specify if any transport vehicle in reserve is carrying any of the infantry units and/or independent characters in reseve. If they do, the unit and transport will be rolled for together and will arrive together."

 

So any unit inside a transport, even ones not dedicated to them, are rolled for once and then arrive on the table as normal. What you have done I fear is read the first part of the reserves rules and not continued reading... :lol:

[DantonTH]

Exactly!

 

Come on guys. Let's read the rules. Ergh, dedicated transports need separete reserve roll than their unit.... sure :P

 

Anyways. I play my strike squads with hammer, psybolts (if big enough squad) and couple of Halberds, just to remind multi-wound IC's (and some other like dreadknight :D ) that there is change I can take you out!!!

I would use Psycannon/-s if I had any. I use my old metal models for strike knights and so lack cannons. I really did not like psycannons on previous codex. I had this problem that i think most of us have, old metal models have halberds mostly. But i think using couple halberds per squad of 10 is not that bad for cost of +10 to +15 points. Keeping mind that hammer costs 10 pts and it is just in case also!

 

Little bit over the subject:

Why Grey Knight box has five legs that one has this skirt integrated on it (Meaning one has to be always justicar)!!! It is good thou, that Space marine legs is the most Left over piece so I can use normal legs and just decorate them.... ^_^