Falcons vs halberds mathhammer

[bl00d bath76]

Overall i have seen very few GK players field falcons prefering to use the I6 halberds. In this post i will review whether falcons really are that bad as well as when to field them.

 

Firstly for the purposes of this post falcons are +2 attacks. (I mean would GW seriously make you pay the same points for a deamon hammer or for just one extra attack? Anyway lets try and leave that debate out of this article....

 

So price wise you are paying 5 extra points (10 in total) for falcons on all units except purfiers which is 3 extra points (5 in total) and terminators which is 5 extra points (5 in total). This can make your squads very expensive if you are not carefull.

 

I will use purfiers in this example and have a squad with halberds(1), a squad with a 50/50 mix(2), and a squad with falchons(3). (unit of 10) To start with we will assume the attacks are against a unit of 10 terminators with lightning claws. I4 is the most common Initative you will have to face and the purifiers shouldn't roll over them. Purfiers will get the charge of as well as hammerhand.

(1)

purifiers will kill 6.666666666 terminators so lets assume 6 are killed.

Terminators will kill 4.5 purfiers so lets assume 4 are killed.

Next assault phase the purfiers would kill 2.666666 terminators so lets assume thats 3.

Remaining terminator would kill 1.25 purifiers so lets assume thats 1.

Next assault phase purifiers kills the remaining terminator.

Overall half the purifier squad will die.

 

(2)

Purifers will kill 3.333333 terminators so lets assume thats 3

Terminators will kill 7.875 so lets assume that 8

Falcons will kill 5.5555 so lets assume thats 6.

you would keep the halberds and kill 0.888888 terminators.

Overall 8 purfiers would die.

 

(3)

Purifiers and Terminators strike at the same time

Purifiers will kill 11.11111 terminators which is the whole squad.

Terminators will kill 11.25

Both squad kill each other in one assault phase.

 

Conclusion from that is obvious which is that the I6 provided by the halberds is effective and outclasses the falcons. Of course the dice can go either way.

 

Theory behind why halberds are better and why falcons are worse:

 

Halberds kill the opponent before they can strike so less damage is done back to the squad. It doesn't help having one or two falcons in the squad as you want to kill as many as possible so you get hit less back.

 

Lets see what will happen agaisnt an I5 enemy. For this example i will use a unit of 5 assault terminators which has got the red rage for I5 and furious charge charging a unit of 10 purifers with 5 halberds and 5 falcons:

(1)

Purifiers will kill 4.44444 terminators which will count as 4.

Terminator will kill 1.777777 purfiers which we will count as 2

Purfiers finsh the last terminator of next phase.

2 purifiers die as a result but takes an extra assault phase.

 

(2)

Purifiers with halberd kills 2.2222 terminators which i will count as 2.

Terminators and priest will kill 5.333333 purifiers which i will count as 5.

Falcons will now strike back killing 4.444444 terminators killing the squad.

5 Purfiers die as a result.

 

(3)

Unit with all falcons will get rolled over in this case.

Terminators will strike first killing 8.8888 purfiers which we will count as 9.

Purifier will kill 0.4444 terminators and get whipped next turn.

All 10 purfiers die and the terminator squad is all but unharmed.

 

Overall halberds are still a lot better although taking an extra assault phase. You should not take falcons here.

 

Lastly lets see how purifiers will do against an I6 enemy. Lets take genesteelers and have a unit of 12 with scything talons assaulting 10 purfiers. Purifiers will use hammerhand although in reality you would use cleansing flame.

 

(1)

Purifiers will kill 6.66666 which we will count as 7.

Genesteelers will kill 10.370370370 which is the entire squad.

Overall all the purifiers die and 7 genesteelers are killed

 

No need to do the rest as each time the squad will get killed at I6 so falcons will never get to strike. In this case purifiers are much better.

 

So, in conclusion , all purifiers should have every model with a halberd if you are likely to be against a I4,5,6. In every case its better to have the halberds with you killing more and losing fewer models. The ONLY advantage to falcons when against enemies at this Initative is you will get the assault over quicker. This means you will lose a lot more models but will be one phase shorter than if with halberds. You also pose the risk of losing the combat entirely. Unless you have a very specific need for finishing a combat a phase earlier then go all out on the halberds. Only if you want to finish that assault quicker should you put in a few falcons. However Falcons can be worth it if you have a unit of paladins or terminators against an I4 squad that can do little in retaliation but cannot be killed by your unit in a turn. For example a unit of tactical marines. In this case it does not matter about having I6 because you are very unlikely to take any wounds so you might as well have the extra attacks to finish of the combat quicker rather than get bogged down.

 

No mathhammer needs to be done against opponents with I7 or higher and I3 or lower. Against these the I6 is pointless and you would be much better of with the falcons. If you will play against guard or orks for example it is worth it to equip a few falcons to get you through huge blobs of infantry but this would only happen if you are tailoring an army to play against them. You also have to remember the added cost of falcons. Purfiers you only pay an extra 3 points for the upgrade. I would therefore suggest trying to add a lot more falcons to purfiers if you are going to be playing guard or other armies which contain a lot of I1, 2, 3, 7 ,8 ,9 ,10.

 

Overall, unless you are tailoring against orks and guard i would always take the halberd over falcons. Its cheaper and more effective.

 

Hope this post was usefull, but also usefull to show that even if falcons are +2 attacks they are nowhere close to being overpowered.

[Custodian Athiair]

thats a shame i was really excited by the new weapons of Falchions. and it seems that they are a bit of a waste.

 

of course i've always loved the Halberds and i'm looking forward to fielding them.

 

mind you i never spam weapons anyway - i stick to the old fluff where each Grey Knight had his own preferred weapon choice (and his own personal weapon actually). and thats why in each of my squads i have random combinations of weapons.

ok it could get annoying for the opponents me rolling lots of different times - for lots of different weapons. but hey it's my army and they have to live with it. I'm a fluff gamer not a power gamer :)

 

but thanks for all this information, it is useful just to see the comparison :)

 

Athiair :)

[XaClocKWorKoX]

i think this is a bad choice of showing. was CF even taken into this. cause i believe CF would hose the Geanstealers before even blows starts plus it also changes alot of things too

 

this is more of a strike squad

[bl00d bath76]

cleansing flame doesn't give an advantage to either halberds or falcons so there is no point including it... If it would have any effect on which weapon is better then please can you point it out to me because i cannot think of anything.

[Zeratil]

Putting halberds and falchions on strike squads is almost never worth it, they're just not good enough in close combat to be worth the points. But the point about cleansing flame is a very valid one. I think halberds are almost always the better choice, particually for an all comers army. Although there are a few occasions where you will wish you had falchions (wyches, TH/SS termies - any unit where you just need a bucketload of dice). Halberds are better against the most common opponent, various flavours of space marine.

[XaClocKWorKoX]

the CF will make all the difference in a unit that attacks first against you.

 

12 GS kill 10+ models in the assault phase.

 

theoryhammering lets just say CF goes off and Kills half the models your GS models kill will be halved and now you will have a second round of fighting. and well if the hammerhand goes off its worth it.

 

i understand they they carry all power weapons. and the NFW is really only used for mulit wound models without EW

[stephane4985]

Good job on the analysis. I was contemplating the idea of using Falchion on the next squads I build, but seeing that I think I will stay with halberds on my purifiers and terminators.

 

And I agree that adding CF in the mix is irrelevant for this comparison. Sure it will make a difference from the unit point of view, but not in the weapons efficiently. And it is only applied to purifiers anyway.

 

And strike squad should be left with sword and keep away from assault.

[XaClocKWorKoX]

I understand where the point of the weapon efficienty is coming from but the point is that a normal strike squad could do all the same with this rather than a purifier squad which is what the CF is used for which makes them the CC monsters.

[Release]

I understand where the point of the weapon efficienty is coming from but the point is that a normal strike squad could do all the same with this rather than a purifier squad which is what the CF is used for which makes them the CC monsters.

 

That and the extra base attack

[Brother Captain Kezef]

I find that Falchions are effective in interceptor squads but wasted on most other units. I can't comment on Purifiers as I don't use them, but for terminators the Halberd is the way to go.

[Gunslinger87]

What you need to keep in mind is that most of the time you don't face full squads (neither is yours full) but halbers are better the bigger your advantage over your opponent. If you're going to face down the last 3 guys in a squad, you can go in comfortably expecting not to lose anything. With falchions, even if your killing power was greater, you would still risk being hit back. Would you ever charge your I1 thunder hammer termies against the last sergeant in a squad with a power fist? You probably would kill him, sure, but why risk the retaliation?

 

If you take large squads, keep several halberds to do the dirty work, plus different equipment on everybody else for wound allocation. Same foes for all types of GK.

[Tybrus]

Overall i have seen very few GK players field falcons prefering to use the I6 halberds. In this post i will review whether falcons really are that bad as well as when to field them.

 

Firstly for the purposes of this post falcons are +2 attacks. (I mean would GW seriously make you pay the same points for a deamon hammer or for just one extra attack? Anyway lets try and leave that debate out of this article....

 

So price wise you are paying 5 extra points (10 in total) for falcons on all units except purfiers which is 3 extra points (5 in total) and terminators which is 5 extra points (5 in total). This can make your squads very expensive if you are not carefull.

 

I will use purfiers in this example and have a squad with halberds(1), a squad with a 50/50 mix(2), and a squad with falchons(3). (unit of 10) To start with we will assume the attacks are against a unit of 10 terminators with lightning claws. I4 is the most common Initative you will have to face and the purifiers shouldn't roll over them. Purfiers will get the charge of as well as hammerhand.

(1)

purifiers will kill 6.666666666 terminators so lets assume 6 are killed.

Terminators will kill 4.5 purfiers so lets assume 4 are killed.

Next assault phase the purfiers would kill 2.666666 terminators so lets assume thats 3.

Remaining terminator would kill 1.25 purifiers so lets assume thats 1.

Next assault phase purifiers kills the remaining terminator.

Overall half the purifier squad will die.

 

(2)

Purifers will kill 3.333333 terminators so lets assume thats 3

Terminators will kill 7.875 so lets assume that 8

Falcons will kill 5.5555 so lets assume thats 6.

you would keep the halberds and kill 0.888888 terminators.

Overall 8 purfiers would die.

 

(3)

Purifiers and Terminators strike at the same time

Purifiers will kill 11.11111 terminators which is the whole squad.

Terminators will kill 11.25

Both squad kill each other in one assault phase.

 

Conclusion from that is obvious which is that the I6 provided by the halberds is effective and outclasses the falcons. Of course the dice can go either way.

 

Theory behind why halberds are better and why falcons are worse:

 

Halberds kill the opponent before they can strike so less damage is done back to the squad. It doesn't help having one or two falcons in the squad as you want to kill as many as possible so you get hit less back.

 

Lets see what will happen agaisnt an I5 enemy. For this example i will use a unit of 5 assault terminators which has got the red rage for I5 and furious charge charging a unit of 10 purifers with 5 halberds and 5 falcons:

(1)

Purifiers will kill 4.44444 terminators which will count as 4.

Terminator will kill 1.777777 purfiers which we will count as 2

Purfiers finsh the last terminator of next phase.

2 purifiers die as a result but takes an extra assault phase.

 

(2)

Purifiers with halberd kills 2.2222 terminators which i will count as 2.

Terminators and priest will kill 5.333333 purifiers which i will count as 5.

Falcons will now strike back killing 4.444444 terminators killing the squad.

5 Purfiers die as a result.

 

(3)

Unit with all falcons will get rolled over in this case.

Terminators will strike first killing 8.8888 purfiers which we will count as 9.

Purifier will kill 0.4444 terminators and get whipped next turn.

All 10 purfiers die and the terminator squad is all but unharmed.

 

Overall halberds are still a lot better although taking an extra assault phase. You should not take falcons here.

 

Lastly lets see how purifiers will do against an I6 enemy. Lets take genesteelers and have a unit of 12 with scything talons assaulting 10 purfiers. Purifiers will use hammerhand although in reality you would use cleansing flame.

 

(1)

Purifiers will kill 6.66666 which we will count as 7.

Genesteelers will kill 10.370370370 which is the entire squad.

Overall all the purifiers die and 7 genesteelers are killed

 

No need to do the rest as each time the squad will get killed at I6 so falcons will never get to strike. In this case purifiers are much better.

 

So, in conclusion , all purifiers should have every model with a halberd if you are likely to be against a I4,5,6. In every case its better to have the halberds with you killing more and losing fewer models. The ONLY advantage to falcons when against enemies at this Initative is you will get the assault over quicker. This means you will lose a lot more models but will be one phase shorter than if with halberds. You also pose the risk of losing the combat entirely. Unless you have a very specific need for finishing a combat a phase earlier then go all out on the halberds. Only if you want to finish that assault quicker should you put in a few falcons. However Falcons can be worth it if you have a unit of paladins or terminators against an I4 squad that can do little in retaliation but cannot be killed by your unit in a turn. For example a unit of tactical marines. In this case it does not matter about having I6 because you are very unlikely to take any wounds so you might as well have the extra attacks to finish of the combat quicker rather than get bogged down.

 

No mathhammer needs to be done against opponents with I7 or higher and I3 or lower. Against these the I6 is pointless and you would be much better of with the falcons. If you will play against guard or orks for example it is worth it to equip a few falcons to get you through huge blobs of infantry but this would only happen if you are tailoring an army to play against them. You also have to remember the added cost of falcons. Purfiers you only pay an extra 3 points for the upgrade. I would therefore suggest trying to add a lot more falcons to purfiers if you are going to be playing guard or other armies which contain a lot of I1, 2, 3, 7 ,8 ,9 ,10.

 

Overall, unless you are tailoring against orks and guard i would always take the halberd over falcons. Its cheaper and more effective.

 

Hope this post was usefull, but also usefull to show that even if falcons are +2 attacks they are nowhere close to being overpowered.

 

I have no clue what is better, I was to busy trying to find how to arm my GK's with Falcons and could only find Falchons. :)

[Doomaflatchi]

Nice examination! However, one aspect you forgot to take into account was how well each squad does against an I3 (or less) opponent, which is kind of a big point, since that's where falchions really shine. You've shown the stats on Halberds in their prime territory, but haven't given the Falchions equal consideration in that regard. You're also assuming the enemy is armed with power weapons, which again falls in the "circumstances that innately favor Halberds" camp.

 

My main point is that your situations are hardly comprehensive, and basically only look at where the Halberds are best anyway. Try expanding the range of options so we can see what situations make Falchions worthwhile - this will help us understand how to use the two weapons together in an army.

 

Also, I totally want Grey Knights with attack Falcons! :) Alas, all I could find was Coteaz's cyber eagle! :D

[stephane4985]

Nice examination! However, one aspect you forgot to take into account was how well each squad does against an I3 (or less) opponent, which is kind of a big point, since that's where falchions really shine. You've shown the stats on Halberds in their prime territory, but haven't given the Falchions equal consideration in that regard. You're also assuming the enemy is armed with power weapons, which again falls in the "circumstances that innately favor Halberds" camp.

 

My main point is that your situations are hardly comprehensive, and basically only look at where the Halberds are best anyway. Try expanding the range of options so we can see what situations make Falchions worthwhile - this will help us understand how to use the two weapons together in an army.

 

Also, I totally want Grey Knights with attack Falcons! :lol: Alas, all I could find was Coteaz's cyber eagle! :lol:

 

 

From the very first post:

 

No mathhammer needs to be done against opponents with I7 or higher and I3 or lower. Against these the I6 is pointless and you would be much better of with the falcons.

[Chengar Qordath]

One other factor that might need to be accounted for is Morale/No Retreat.

[number6]

Firstly for the purposes of this post falcons are +2 attacks. (I mean would GW seriously make you pay the same points for a deamon hammer or for just one extra attack? Anyway lets try and leave that debate out of this article....

Of course they would! :D I'm not arguing one way or another on the rules. I'm just talking from experience here. Example: GW is either makes plasmas cost the same or more than melta guns! It's like they don't even understand their own game, a game where meltas are clearly the superior weapon in the majority of tactical battlefield situations that actually occur in actual games. ;)

 

So yes, they could totally think that giving even just +1 attack with Nemesis Force Weapons would have to cost more than giving +2 Init to models equipped with NFWs. They are silly like that.

 

But this doesn't really matter in the end. If you don't actually know that having better initiative is superior to having more attacks ... what game have you been playing?! ;) This has been a truism since practically forever. A new codex doesn't change this simple fact of 40K.

 

No mathhammer needs to be done against opponents with I7 or higher and I3 or lower. Against these the I6 is pointless and you would be much better of with the falcons.

Actually, neither falchions nor halberds would matter in both of these cases.

 

There are no I3 and lower units I can think of that require bonus power weapon attacks to eliminate. Even basic GKs with swords should be capable of taking these units down. You need neither extra attacks nor I6 to help you out. GKs should be winning these fights no matter what.

 

And every unit that is I7 or better is not a unit you ever want to assault or be assaulted by no matter what unit in the GK codex you are. All units we have are vulnerable to being wiped out by these badasses. Avoid them. You shouldn't be assaulting them anyway. You should be shooting them dead and avoiding assault by roadblocking them with vehicles or tossing little combat squads into their way to slow them up so you can shoot them some more.

[bl00d bath76]

That is done at the end of the assault phase so it doesn't matter if you strike at I4 or I6...

[yperihitikos]

You did it wrong. You will calculate the squad equipped as if you were fielding it and you will calculate it against squads that cost the same points if you want to prove anything.

 

The squad will shoot at least one time against the incoming assault. In close combat against terminators they will hammerhand. Every sane player would include at least 2 psycannons and most players 4. Otherwise, they will have psybolt ammunition. Psycannons mean less force weapons, less attacks. Obviously, you should get some falchions to counter this. No competitive player would field 10 terminators full with lightning claws and not combat squad them to attack multiple enemies.

[Chengar Qordath]

That is done at the end of the assault phase so it doesn't matter if you strike at I4 or I6...

But considering things like total wounds inflicted for purposes of combat resulution is certainly worth doing, not to mention that the mathahmmer in the OP does allude to the possibility of combats that occur over multiple assault phases.

 

Also, in the Falchion's favor, Codex:GK does have options for boosting your initiative/decreasing the enemy's besides using halberds. Falchions become a bit better if you regularly plan to field a Librarian with Quicksilver...

[number6]

Also, in the Falchion's favor, Codex:GK does have options for boosting your initiative/decreasing the enemy's besides using halberds. Falchions become a bit better if you regularly plan to field a Librarian with Quicksilver...

Psyker powers are not reliable enough to be counted upon. In particular, most armies have numerous ways of shutting them down. If your army really needs Quicksilver in order to function properly in the Assault phase, you're doing it wrong.

 

Beyond that, Quicksilver only functions in your player turn. When your opponent's half of the turn comes round, you won't ever have the boosted Init. And, of course, it is in your opponent's turn that furious charging Death Company will come in to kick your butt ... unless you are always at Init 6 to at least make him think about the very real risk you present before committing.

[DarkGuard]

Are not falchions worth considering on Terminator squads? Unless you're going up against an enemy unit with lots of power weapons then surely the falchions would be better for Terminators over Purifiers. If the Terminators strike the same time as most MEQ units, then they won't take many casualties thanks to their Terminator armour, and falchions will put out a horrific amount of attacks to lay the unit low. Of am I just being silly?

[number6]

How will you guarantee that your termies won't be fighting units with power weapons? How will you know you can keep them against opponents with I4 or less? Unless you can control who your opponent is, what's in his/her army list, and how he/she plays said army list....

 

Yes. You're being silly. ;) Halberds >> falchions. Especially on Terminators and Paladins. They're free. You have to pay for falchions. :D

[bl00d bath76]

There are no I3 and lower units I can think of that require bonus power weapon attacks to eliminate. Even basic GKs with swords should be capable of taking these units down. You need neither extra attacks nor I6 to help you out.

 

Im thinking of big units of imperial guard and 30 man ork units. The extra attacks would help a LOT in these cases.

 

You did it wrong. You will calculate the squad equipped as if you were fielding it and you will calculate it against squads that cost the same points if you want to prove anything.

 

Firstly have you ever had a combat gone of with each sides having the same number of points invested in them? No this rarely happens. I am only including a unit such as this as it is hard to get killed in one round of close combat and so easier to compare these two pieces of wargeer. For example every single grey knight squad would kill a squad of 5 marines with no serg easily without any casualties.

 

The squad will shoot at least one time against the incoming assault. In close combat against terminators they will hammerhand. Every sane player would include at least 2 psycannons and most players 4. Otherwise, they will have psybolt ammunition. Psycannons mean less force weapons, less attacks. Obviously, you should get some falchions to counter this.

 

NO as shown by my post this is not the case. Just because you have psycannons this does not change the fact halberds in that squad will kill more as well as gettting less of your squad killed in return. It makes no difference. Also may i ask what the point is in including shooting. No matter if you have falcons or halberds you will kill the same number so when comparing falcons and halberds there is no point in this being factored in.

 

Also, in the Falchion's favor, Codex:GK does have options for boosting your initiative/decreasing the enemy's besides using halberds. Falchions become a bit better if you regularly plan to field a Librarian with Quicksilver...

 

Yes i agree with this. If you plan on using a libarian with quicksilver i would say falcons are very much worth it. However as stated by 'number6' its not to be relied on. I would take a 50/50 ratio in this case. Just to make sure.

 

Are not falchions worth considering on Terminator squads? Unless you're going up against an enemy unit with lots of power weapons then surely the falchions would be better for Terminators over Purifiers. If the Terminators strike the same time as most MEQ units, then they won't take many casualties thanks to their Terminator armour, and falchions will put out a horrific amount of attacks to lay the unit low. Of am I just being silly?

 

It depends, i would say not really because you can still roll that 1 and power weapons are all the rage. Against a unit where you are less likely to have casualties they will help you kill more in fewer assault phases.......However i would always take halberds as the chances of a unit like this getting into the assault with this is very small.

[DarkGuard]

Fair enough, I can imagine that if you wanted extra attacks the Brotherhood Banner would be a better buy, as you keep most of your models with halberds. One final, silly falchion question. At the moment me and my friend see the sword as being the better option for the Grand Master and Brother Captain. A 3++ in combat, and it's free, not bad. With I5 we don't think the halberd is as needed, although I imagine I7 is nice when going up against Eldar and Nids. Anyway, if the falchions are +2A when the FAQ comes out, would the falchions be the weapon of choice for a GM or BC? 5-6 attacks depending on charge at S5 seems very good, especially when they're most likely all hitting on 3s. And the model would look epic as well IMO.

[bl00d bath76]

Depends on his role in your army. Personaly i would say:

 

Warding staff - not worth it don't bother with this piece of wargeer

Deamon hammer - you should never take this as he can get picked out in close combat so will die before he can strike.

Sword - Personaly i don't think this is that amazing and wouldn't take it. Its not too bad 3++ is nice but its better to strike first so you never have to make that save in the first place

Halberd - At I7 i would say halberd is a good option however he only has one more attack than a simple purifier. I7 is not much different to I6 and this difference will only benefit you on a few occasions.

falcons - This is where the falcons belong personaly. I5 is much better than I4 so you will normaly strike first anyway making the halberd obsolete.

 

Conclusion:

I would go for the falcons as the majority of the time you will strike first anyway. However in character battles the halberd would be more usefull.