Trial Chaos BFG fleet [1000]

[minigun762]

Trying my hand at a BFG fleet again. After doing a lot research, I think I have a novel idea of not including a battleship and using those points for more Cruisers instead.

 

Styx Heavy Cruiser x 1 (flagship)

Slaughter Cruiser x 1

Murder Cruisers x 3 (squadron)

total 950 points

 

My plan is fairly simple.

The Styx hangs back and provides fighter/comber cover for the fleet while helping snipe things from 60cm away. I say away from the main action and slowly circle my opponent. Distance is my friend here.

The Murders are the heart of the list. Aim them towards the enemy battleship and start blasting with 6 lances until I'm up close and I can unload all those batteries.

The Slaughter will be my escort killer as he's fast enough and has more then enough firepower to knock them out. He'll also help protect the Styx if something nasty tries to close with it.

[Kythnos]

In my experience, not using a battleship at 1000 points isn't such a novel idea - at least I can't rarely justify its points at this level, even if it is a relatively cheap Desolator class. That said, I would think about, if you do really need a squadron of three Murder Cruisers, because I see them as rather inflexible, as they have to close with the enemy, to bring their real firepower to bear. And considering the rest of your fleet, you more or less only rely on lances for long range firepower, which might bring you into trouble when it comes to fighting Eldar and their darker brothers.

 

With that reasoning, I would actually think about switching one of the Murders to a Carnage class cruiser, to give you some more wepon batteries for longe range firefights or for catching fast enemies. You'd still have 6 lances with 60cm range in the list, which dosn't sound to bad and have more options, when it comes to different opponents in my opinion. The Slaughter, I'd mostly use as a guard for your Styx and as an interceptor for faster ships, which want to mess up your battleplan. Don't let him be led too far away from your Styx, even more, when your other cruisers are engaging with the enemie.

 

At least these are my thoughts so far. Let's hear what Vaaish has to say, as he has a lot more experience than I have :teehee:

[Demoulius]

have no experience with or against chaos vessels so take my advice with a grain of salt (like Kythnos said Vaaish is the voice of experience here :P im sure he will pop up sooner or later :D)

 

at 1000 points your carriers seems to be the right choice (barring the despoiler) devastations are also nice and cheaper but have less carrier capabilities. they are better at defending themselves (only just barely though) but having one for a flagship seems like the right choice :)

 

im not sure if the slaughter plays to the chaos' fleets strengths. its weapons are only 30 cms range and its basicly a downgraded IN Lunar (no torpedoes and armoured prow) but it is quite cheap. might be nice to catch escorts i guess....

 

the 3 murders im also not to sure about. the vessels themselves are pretty nice but i question if the number 3 is the right choice for a squadron (specialy at 1000 pts)

add the 50 pts warmaster to your fleet (as hes mandatory) so your fleet comes at 1000 pts.

 

no clue what you can do with the murders. having to face your front to fire at your opponents is a danger id rather avoid. the 60 cms nulifies this to an extend but generally only for 2 turns or so and your opponent will have bridged the distance gap and your suddenly getting bombarded into obvlivion...

 

Acheron heavy cruisers for example have 2 lances on each broadside (60 cms as well) AND have front/left/right lances of 2 and batteries with front/left/right fire arcs. they do cost 20 points more but all bring more firepower... in my mind they fit the strengths of the chaos fleet more as you can keep the distance with your opponent for longer, bombarding them with the lances firing from your broadsides at 60cms and when they do close the distances can add batteries to that. (difference with the murders beeing that they cant fire lance and batteries at the same foes) youd have some 130 points left or so at this point. ypou could use the points for 3 infidels i guess for some fast torpedo carriers.

 

but like i said earlier i have no experience with chaos so take my advice with a grain of salt ;)

[Vaaish]

From my experience, the murders are rough opponents. I find them far more difficult to deal with than carnage and they always tend to do better than the theoretical damage the carnage does. With 3 of them you have flexibility to squadron against opponents where WB are more effective and run them like carnages or leave them as singles to dive in and pick away with the lances.

 

I can understand why you are taking a styx, but at 1k points I think you would be better served with a devastation and use the points elsewhere since it'll help when you move up to 1500 points.

 

The single slaughter won't work very well. I've seen my usual chaos player run those things in about every possible configuration and style and especially a single slaughter is just asking to get toasted and move too fast to really hunt down escorts well since they still have a 45cm turn. You really need to have 90` turns for it to work as an escort killer. That said, chaos usually doesn't have problems with escorts to begin with since they can just launch AB to intercept much more effectively.

 

I'd think about perhaps dropping the slaughter for a devastation or/and drop the styx for a hades which will work great with the murders.

[minigun762]

Thanks for the advice everyone. Here was my thinking.

 

With the Styx instead of Devastation, I like the added firepower I can put out at 60cm and the extra 2 waves of ordnance. However swapping a Styx/Murder for a Hades/Devastation might be a worthwhile idea but should I be worried with the reduction in ordnance? On a related note, is 4/6 launch bays enough ordnance to use offensively or should I be on torpedo duty?

 

With the 3x Murders, I was actually going to use them as my main long range firepower, supported by the Styx's firepower. Is 8x 60cm lances not enough long range firepower? Its enough to strip the shields from another Cruiser and typically remove 1-2 points per turn. I had thought about the Carnage but I'm not sure that 10 batteries @ 60cm is better then 2 lances. Giving the likely scenario against an IN Cruiser closing in, I'm rolling 5d6 vs 6+, that is less then 1 hit on average while the 2 lances should average 1 per and against Eldar I'm still packing 10 batteries @ 45cm.

 

With the Slaughter, I agree that just one of them isn't that much of a threat but the sheer volume of firepower they can bring just keeps calling me. I guess I could replace it with either a Devastation (for more ordnance) or a Carnage (to help strip shields for lances) but that leaves my Styx more exposed.

 

Am I really missing out on not running either a battleship or escorts and just relying on the cruisers to carry the day?

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

Chaos' biggest strengths are in its cruisers. I'd definitely dump the Slaughter for a Devastation, personally. Between the Dev and the Styx, you've got fighter screen for every ship in your fleet, and the Murders can be your bruisers with the Styx to back them up.

[Vaaish]

Typically 8LB is the gold standard for a 1500 points game. 4 and 1k should be fine against all but the most ordnance heavy fleets. Outside of interception duty you probably won't even miss the extra two LB from the styx and your devastations still have 2x 60cm lances to support with. Effectively the only difference between the styx and devastations is +2 LB and 60cm on the Styx's WB.

 

Conventional wisdom builds the chaos fleet around 2x devastation for ordnance and 2x carnage for firepower. Mathematically the carnage should outperform the murder in all but the 60cm bracket, however I've never seen the carnage perform well at range and once you get to 30cm, the slaughter has more firepower.

 

The basic application is the carnage can sit abeam and fire without needing to close for maximum concentration of firepower while the murder has to present both its soft nose and get closer to the enemy. Hence the Hades works best with murders and Acherons work best with carnage. The styx is usually left out because 2x devastation is more economical than a styx and another carrier.

 

Typically escorts are left behind for chaos and AC is used in the escort role although infidels are taken from time to time for their torpedoes.

 

In practice, especially against a heavy IN fleet with Ac parity (empy and two grand cruisers), I've seen the murder perform much better than either the carnage or the slaughter. At 1k points, you won't miss the BB as few players want to suck down 1/3 of their points in a single ship. At 1500, the desolator is typically used because it is fast and cheap but doesn't have much more firepower than an acheron so it is used as a tank to force command checks and absorb enemy fire.

 

It looks like this comes out to 1k exactly:

1x Devastation

3x Murder

1x Hades

Warmaster+ mark of Tzeentch 80 OR

Warmaster (+2ld from armada) 100

 

It gives you a good base to upgrade to 1500 by building a second devastation (you will have an extra hull anyway since you get 2 per box) and thinking about a CG like the repulsive, escorts or a pair of slaughters. You've even got points to try out swapping two murders for a couple carnage if you wanted.

 

If you wanted really ordnance heavy you could do this:

2x Devastation

2x Murder

1x Hades

Warmaster+ mark of Tzeentch 80

 

which would probably work out to a better fleet overall since the devs could support each other.

[Demoulius]

dont mean to threadjack but since this is about a chaos fleet il add a question if you guys dont mind. (think its abit excessive to start a new thread for this)

 

what are your thoughts on the repulsive GC Vaaish? ive been looking at the chaos fleet myself and it seems like a nice vessel to have but i cant really find something to squadron it with aside from another Repulsive, which would mean it could be downed rather easily in case your opponent would focus fire on it...and it only has 2 shields ;) like its firepower, 3 turrets and 10 hitpoints though....

 

thought on this? a good flagship for 1000 points?

[Vaaish]

The repulsive is a good ship. There was a mistake in printing though, it can take a 3rd shield for 15 points. With that and the range upgrade it makes an excellent little ship :P

[Demoulius]

The repulsive is a good ship. There was a mistake in printing though, it can take a 3rd shield for 15 points. With that and the range upgrade it makes an excellent little ship :pinch:

wait what? it can? where can i find this? its not in the book or the pdf thats on the GW website :lol:

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

The repulsive is a good ship. There was a mistake in printing though, it can take a 3rd shield for 15 points. With that and the range upgrade it makes an excellent little ship :pinch:

wait what? it can? where can i find this? its not in the book or the pdf thats on the GW website :lol:

 

It's in the FAQ, page 27.

[Demoulius]

ah :lol: my group prefers things official sadly....were kinda waiting for GW to give an all-out ok and ware waiting for them to place it on the website....

[Vaaish]

The repulsive upgrades ARE official. they've been official since before 2007, but for some reason GW didn't get the info up on the site when they changed to the new design.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

ah ^_^ my group prefers things official sadly....were kinda waiting for GW to give an all-out ok and ware waiting for them to place it on the website....

 

Well, if they want to hold themselves back, so be it. :lol:

 

As it is, you could always opt for a Retaliator or Executor if you're really needing a GC that's "official"; I'd go with Retaliator for the launch bays, personally, and use Devs to screen it as well as provide even more ordnance. Take Foebane and you get the improved thrusters for free, so it could potentially keep pace with Slaughters for escorts if you want to get in close and dump assault boats or bombers at point-blank range into someone's flotilla. It's a little more expensive and doesn't pack quite the personal punch of a Repulsive, but I think the speed and its launch bays make up for that.

[Demoulius]

well i dident think up the "its needs to be official" **** but the guys want to keep with the rules on hand. learn those first. then maybe when we have known them for a while look for expansions (such as the faq) but to be fair the second i learn GW has put them on the web im pointing it out and we will use the damned rules! :P

 

but ive been threadjacking enough for now... sorry bout that minigun :)

[Grey Mage]

I think the point was.... GW did put them on the web.

 

They forgot to keep putting them on the web- but its still the official GW FAQ.

[minigun762]

Chaos' biggest strengths are in its cruisers. I'd definitely dump the Slaughter for a Devastation, personally. Between the Dev and the Styx, you've got fighter screen for every ship in your fleet, and the Murders can be your bruisers with the Styx to back them up.

 

I like this idea. Just from a background view, I like the Devs/Styx and Murder/Hades cruisers better then the rest so I'm hoping that a fleet built mainly from those would be effective.

 

How does an ordnance heavy Chaos list compare to one with more batteries and lances?

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

Chaos' biggest strengths are in its cruisers. I'd definitely dump the Slaughter for a Devastation, personally. Between the Dev and the Styx, you've got fighter screen for every ship in your fleet, and the Murders can be your bruisers with the Styx to back them up.

 

I like this idea. Just from a background view, I like the Devs/Styx and Murder/Hades cruisers better then the rest so I'm hoping that a fleet built mainly from those would be effective.

 

How does an ordnance heavy Chaos list compare to one with more batteries and lances?

 

The ordnance builds tend to frustrate fleets that place a lot of reliance on torpedoes, and it forces them to wonder what your bays will be dumping out so that if they're used to dealing with fighter/bomber/assault boat-less enemies it tends to put them off their game. Lance and battery builds are basically shock fleets that you hope can stay alive long enough to deal damage to the enemy before the shields collapse, the armor buckles, and the structure damage starts to add up. Chaos is decent at this due to the longer ranges of their guns compared to Imperial ships, but the Imperial ships have better armor so it doesn't always work out. There's benefits to both, and a balanced fleet can do both to decent results if your dice are hot.

[Vaaish]

I would say ordnance heavy chaos would work alright but not as reliable as your standard tournament fleet. This is partly because a failed SO check can leave you without most of your striking capability and because enemy fleets will eventually get close to your carriers which don't have the strongest weapons for a knife fight. You also run the risk of losing your AC waves if you fly through BM or dust clouds and bombers can be relatively useless against ships with 4+ turrets. Against torpedo heavy fleets you will probably end up launching more fighters to deal with torpedo waves although few players rely on long range torpedo fire (unless you are tau) since it can be easily intercepted. Instead they are more likely to use small salvos of torpedoes to strip CAP from ships and fire within 30cm so there is no chance of dodging or interception before the torpedoes hit. Either way, if you decide to go ordnance heavy, you would be better served with two devastations than with a devastation and styx. Two devastations are cheaper and provide a better base to work with for larger fleets.

 

Typically, chaos goes for the gunnery because that's what they are best at. Most chaos fleets can easily pack between 12 and 20 60cm lances which provide a bruising amount of firepower since you can typically lock on when using them. That works out to anywhere from 6 and 10 hits on a bad day and more like 9-15 from the lances alone which is enough to make most ships brace or be crippled. That can be preceded by battery fire to strip shields. Very few fleets can match that level of outright firepower from so far away.

 

Chaos is decent at this due to the longer ranges of their guns compared to Imperial ships, but the Imperial ships have better armor so it doesn't always work out.

I have to say I disagree with this statement. Chaos is decent because they can bring so many long range lances which ignores the IN armored prow outright allowing them to damage IN ships as they close. IN ships are designed so that they have little disadvantage presenting a closing aspect which allows them to close without getting toasted by battery fire before they get in range. Basically an IN ship will take approximately the same number of hit whether they are closing or abeam against WB. That is the extent of the effect of the prow armor since the remaining facings have the same 5+ armor as chaos.

[minigun762]

I would say ordnance heavy chaos would work alright but not as reliable as your standard tournament fleet. This is partly because a failed SO check can leave you without most of your striking capability and because enemy fleets will eventually get close to your carriers which don't have the strongest weapons for a knife fight. You also run the risk of losing your AC waves if you fly through BM or dust clouds and bombers can be relatively useless against ships with 4+ turrets. Against torpedo heavy fleets you will probably end up launching more fighters to deal with torpedo waves although few players rely on long range torpedo fire (unless you are tau) since it can be easily intercepted. Instead they are more likely to use small salvos of torpedoes to strip CAP from ships and fire within 30cm so there is no chance of dodging or interception before the torpedoes hit. Either way, if you decide to go ordnance heavy, you would be better served with two devastations than with a devastation and styx. Two devastations are cheaper and provide a better base to work with for larger fleets.

So for Chaos, ordnance is defensive for the most part with some offensive punch against 1-2 turret ships like escorts and cruisers. I can get behind that.

I know the Styx isn't the best buy but if I choose to go with it, would I use it the same way I would a Devastation and how badly am I hurting myself to do this?

 

Typically, chaos goes for the gunnery because that's what they are best at. Most chaos fleets can easily pack between 12 and 20 60cm lances which provide a bruising amount of firepower since you can typically lock on when using them. That works out to anywhere from 6 and 10 hits on a bad day and more like 9-15 from the lances alone which is enough to make most ships brace or be crippled. That can be preceded by battery fire to strip shields. Very few fleets can match that level of outright firepower from so far away.

This works just fine for what I'm aiming for. Murders/Hades supported by Devastations and/or Styx will provide alot of 60cm lances firing.

 

Once I get to 1500 or higher I had considered adding either a grand cruiser or battleship. My first thought is the Desolator because its cheap and enhances the overall fleet strength of long range firepower. Does that seem reasonable or am I missing a better option? Part of me does like the idea of keeping the cruiser only theme and I could get 2 cruisers for 1 battleship almost.

[Vaaish]

So for Chaos, ordnance is defensive for the most part with some offensive punch against 1-2 turret ships like escorts and cruisers. I can get behind that. I know the Styx isn't the best buy but if I choose to go with it, would I use it the same way I would a Devastation and how badly am I hurting myself to do this?

 

Not so much defensive as you have to have a rather high ordnance superiority to really make a go of it. Most fleets take around 8 launch bays at 1500 points with some like IN being supported by torpedoes. That 8 AC cancels out your own AC most of the time and even if you have marginal superiority like 10 ac vs 8 ac, you have very little making it past turrets and even less attacks. You need something like Tau with upwards to 20 launch bays and at least as many torpedoes to be really effective with ordnance. That said, Chaos is better than IN in the AC war since everything can launch assault boats making it easier to kill escorts because once the assault boats make it past turret fire they kill the escort on a 4+.

 

The Styx is by no means a bad ship and it would work well for you, however, it's not going to scale as well when you go up to the standard 1500 points unless you really build the fleet around it and a devastation. What that amounts to is you pay 70 points for 2ac more than 2x devastation. Those 70 points can help you out considerably in terms of what you can fit into the list. I'ts just better for future expansion to use the devs or plan out fully what you are going to do if you really want the styx there.

 

My first thought is the Desolator because its cheap and enhances the overall fleet strength of long range firepower. Does that seem reasonable or am I missing a better option?

 

The Desolator is the ONLY choice many people take. I'd dare say a majority of chaos players. Either that or the PK.

[minigun762]

If I wanted to mix things up with escorts, what is the current thinking on which is best?

I like the Iconoclast simply because its cheap and easy to use but something tells me that the 4+ armor is too much of a weakness leaving me to choose between a lance or some torpedoes.

 

As for the ordnance, it is beginning to sound like its not that important for a Chaos fleet because your turrets will handle a moderate amount while a huge amount will overwhelm both turrets and fighter protection.

[Vaaish]

Typically, if escorts are taken, it's the infidel because it gets you torpedoes which is something chaos usually lacks.

 

on ordnance: not exactly. Ordnance is important if nothing just to counter enemy ordnance. A fleet with 4 lb will do worse than a fleet with 8 lb most of the time since most of your ships have 2 turrets. It's not that your turrets handle a lot of things, is that higher turret values mean bombers need to roll higher to get many attacks at all. Having 3 turrets means any surviving bombers need to roll a 4+ to even attack.

 

Basically you need enough AC to counter enemy AC to whittle them down enough to keep from taking damage. It's more complicated than that, but you will learn more how to deal with it as you play.

[Grey Mage]

If I wanted to mix things up with escorts, what is the current thinking on which is best?

I like the Iconoclast simply because its cheap and easy to use but something tells me that the 4+ armor is too much of a weakness leaving me to choose between a lance or some torpedoes.

 

As for the ordnance, it is beginning to sound like its not that important for a Chaos fleet because your turrets will handle a moderate amount while a huge amount will overwhelm both turrets and fighter protection.

The Infidel is actually pretty golden for a Chaos Fleet, especially if your doing the odd heavy carrier build. The torpedo broadsides from these guys are impressive for the price, 10 torpedos for 200pts is pretty respectable, and lets you put out a couple decent salvos each turn. The weapon batteries give them a decent deterrent against faster light cruisers and something you can use to hunt down Eldar.

 

Use them to funnel your enemy into certain paths, to give you better shots or break his formations so you can hunt parts of them down with your superior speed.

 

The Iconoclast Id mostly use to dump damage onto from more valuable escorts, or as a cheap suprise. They really do just die quickly...

 

At the same time, you get what you pay for eh? The Idolator is just awesome. 45cm weapon batteries and a lance on a fast moving platform is golden for flanking operations and protecting fleet carriers or the back end of battleships. A trio of these gives about the same power as an Imperial broadside...

 

Most peoples problem with escorts is that relatively speaking they are fragile. And theyre right- if youve got nothing but bruiser style cruisers in your fleet you might as well skip them because the bombers are going to wipe them quickly. If you have a decent cap flying around though theyll often get you battleship level firepower for a third of the price.

[Demoulius]

i agree. escorts can dish out alot of firepower but they simply cant take it...

 

to make a small comparison with space marines ship escorts and an IN cruiser here (maybe not the most accurate example but i play space marines, so use them for comparisons sake...):

Lunar cruiser costs 180 pts. has 6 batteries and 2 lances towards each broadside and 6 torpedoes to the front

 

2 nova frigates and 2 hunter destroyers have 6 batteries front/left/right. 2 lances front/left/right and 4 torpedoes to the front. also costs 180.

 

you gain mobility but you lose durability. firepower towards 1 side is almost identical. most escorts are however specialised in 1 type of firepower and in that regard they outshine their bigger cruiser buddies

 

2 gladius frigates also cost 90 points and give you 8 firepower on your front/left/right batteries but nothing else. very fast and agile though. 2 turrets so they can (to some degree) survive AC but otherwise not very durable sadly.

3 hunter destroyers cost 120 and have 6 torpedoes to the front and 3 firepower (almost nill) to the front/left/right.

2 nova frigates cost 100 points and have 2 lances front/left/right and 4 batteries front/left/right.

 

the thing with escorts is that compared to cruisers they have alot of firepower. but each loss of a vessel makes the unit as a whole lose firepower. cruisers and other capital ships only lose firepower when theyre critically hit (and a certain part of their firepower is effected),are crippled or use a special order that reduces firepower in which case escorts also lose firepower btw since critical hits kill ships and SO reduce their firepower as well :D

 

in my fleet i use a few gladius frigates (battery firepower 4 for each) to strip shields off enemy cruisers and/or hunt other escorts. that way my heavier strike cruiser (with bombardment cannons) dont lose that many shots when they would otherwise need to fire through shields. escorts tend to also obsorb fire very well since your opponent loses alot of shots when he fires at them (even more wehn theyre abeam) mind you if no other targets are close they will still fire on them ;) but if i can choice i prefer not to waste my cruisers firepower on them....

 

generally escorts are used as a distraction i think. and a place where excess points go towards. they have their uses, but theyre not a fleets backbone. (specialy not for a chaos fleet)