How to counter Plague Marines

[Demitra]

Brothers, I come to you a beaten man. I've had four games against my friend's Plague Marines and have gotten stomped each time. While I have made a little progress in each game, my best performance this afternoon resulted in about half his army dead and mine, once again, wiped out. I see there's a tactics forum, and this may belong there, but considering my problems are tied to playing Blood Angels I thought this might be a better place.

 

We've both run the same list each time, with the occasional very minor modification. I use a list very much like one of Kirby's Bloodhammer lists with a Librarian, Sanguinary Guard, 3 Assault Squads with 2 meltaguns and power fist, a pair of Sanguinary Priests for the assaulting part of the army, and a firebase of 2 Devestator squads with missile launchers and a Sanguinary Priest to babysit them. I'm facing two Daemon Princes with Warp Time, four squads of 7 Plague Marines with a mix of special weapons and power fists, and three pairs of Obliterators.

 

I've been of the mind that I have the tools I need. Missiles should be able to pop Rhinos, insta-kill Plague Marines, and reliably whittle down the Princes. The Sanguinary Guard are great when they hit something they can kill, and there should be enough bodies and attacks with the Assault Squads to torrent through whatever they come up against. All this is great in theory, but in practice it falls apart. My dice have been less than helpful lately, but they haven't been bad enough to be the root of the problem and I don't want to blame my dice for my own failings.

 

The problem I'm having is match-ups. I don't have a good answer for the Daemon Princes. While shooting them with missiles is a grand idea, in practicing it doesn't happen. My opponent is good at keeping them behind Rhinos so I don't get a shot at them on the way in, and once they're in combat then it's all over anyway. I had some success charging one with the Guard today, but the squad was gutted in the process. The Princes have a higher initiative and reroll everything on the table (provided Warp Time goes off), so they generally kill as many of my marines as they have attacks. Combined with the high toughness, rerollable armor saves, and multiple wounds these are pieces I have a hard time dealing with. I would look at just avoiding them, but with wings they can engage most anywhere and quickly.

 

The Plague Marines are a similar problem. They're as good or better than my assault squads at anything they care to do, save that their initiative is lower. Their defensive grenades blunt any charges they receive while their equipment means they're adept at shooting while still being as effective as my own troops in melee. We both have FNP, but the Plague Marines is baked in, whereas mine is tied to a single model that can be picked out for extra love. The extra toughness is the killer here. Normally I feel good on a charge, but losing the extra attack hurts and wounding on 4s means that my charging marines are on par with his standing marines. The Sanguinary Guard can run through these squads, but they can't be everywhere and often only get the one charge in before being swallowed in counter-assaults. I can, and have, thrown multiple assault squads at them to no effect, resulting in a slap fight that lasts for a few turns before my troops are ground down to dust.

 

The Obliterators are nasty, but nothing overwhelming. In the end I think the failing here is my core: assault squads. They don't do much to the Princes, don't do much to the Plague Marines, and would probably be just as ineffective against the Obliterators. They're essentially power fists with ablative wounds, and my fists have been giving me the finger when it's time for them to get to work. I don't think that either Death Company or Tactical squads are the answer, but at this point I'm prepared to make some sweeping changes in hopes of better results.

 

With all that said, what advice do you have? I have a decent collection of Blood Angels and am not averse to adding to it. Flamestorm Baals are intriguing against the Plague Marines, while dakka Baals seem just as intriguing against the Princes. Vindicators could work too. Much as I'd like to dial up an assault termi deathstar, I'm not convinced they would roll through the Princes, plus the amount of points sunk into that one unit is prohibitive at 1750, which is what we play at. I don't think DoA lists would fare too well in this scenario, but a mech list might. I'm really at a loss here. I have a couple battle reports up on my blog (you can find a link in my sig) and the game from this afternoon should be up in the next day or two. I hate to netlist people, but this is what I've come to. Your aid is appreciated.

[DreadLift]

I asked a very similar question not so long ago, bloody plague marines just wont stay dead. I was rightly informed that furioso dreads with blood talons eat plague marines for breakfast. My next game I ran a DC with talons and 2 Furioso both with talons. Worked wonders especially on the 2 furioso. With armour 13 on the front and no PF in his groups I just munched my way though his troup choices and then had both his daemon princes for dessert:)

[Cpt. Blood Donator]

Vanguards with power weapons, Sanguniary Guard, the dual meltaguns in RAS, the obligatory power weapon or fist in a RAS. Or something as wild as plasmagun RAS. Crazy.

[1Drop]

A DC dread with blood talons or a furioso with blood talons as they can't touch it!

 

There was a thread on this the other day bro, check it out to get some more advice.

[Demitra]

Quick replies, what service. :D

 

Is this thread in the BA forum or the tactics forum? I looked through the first couple pages of each but didn't see anything. I've been meaning to add some cc Dreads for a while, this might be a good time for it.

[vharing]

I would suggest changing up your list a bit. I would take 2 HQs so you can take 2 honor guards. I would kit them out 4 plasma guns. Furioso's with blood talons of adding enough DC to get a few DC dreads with blood talons may help too. I find the best way to deal with plague marines it lots AP2 weaponry and power weapons. The same things that deny our feel FnP from our priests will kill plague marines just as well.

 

PS: I saw someone using your friends exact list once. He got the worse sportsmanship at the tourny I was at, because he openly admitted that it was his d*** list.

[1Drop]

It was in this forum, it should only be a few pages away!

[Gv0zD]

I would suggest changing up your list a bit. I would take 2 HQs so you can take 2 honor guards. I would kit them out 4 plasma guns. Furioso's with blood talons of adding enough DC to get a few DC dreads with blood talons may help too. I find the best way to deal with plague marines it lots AP2 weaponry and power weapons. The same things that deny our feel FnP from our priests will kill plague marines just as well.

This.

 

Plasmas in HG will provide great ranged supports, and can deal with DPs. I'd also take Furioso (1 or 2) w/Blood Talons and Flamers in DropPods. Furioso, not DC dread, for AV13.

Perhaps, Vanguards with PWs/LCs/THs would work well, but they're pricey. They would be good in dealing with obliterators.

[Leonaides]

We've both run the same list each time, with the occasional very minor modification. I use a list very much like one of Kirby's Bloodhammer lists with a Librarian, Sanguinary Guard, 3 Assault Squads with 2 meltaguns and power fist, a pair of Sanguinary Priests for the assaulting part of the army, and a firebase of 2 Devestator squads with missile launchers and a Sanguinary Priest to babysit them. I'm facing two Daemon Princes with Warp Time, four squads of 7 Plague Marines with a mix of special weapons and power fists, and three pairs of Obliterators.

 

I've been of the mind that I have the tools I need. Missiles should be able to pop Rhinos, insta-kill Plague Marines, and reliably whittle down the Princes. The Sanguinary Guard are great when they hit something they can kill, and there should be enough bodies and attacks with the Assault Squads to torrent through whatever they come up against. All this is great in theory, but in practice it falls apart. My dice have been less than helpful lately, but they haven't been bad enough to be the root of the problem and I don't want to blame my dice for my own failings.

 

The problem I'm having is match-ups. I don't have a good answer for the Daemon Princes. While shooting them with missiles is a grand idea, in practicing it doesn't happen. My opponent is good at keeping them behind Rhinos so I don't get a shot at them on the way in, and once they're in combat then it's all over anyway. I had some success charging one with the Guard today, but the squad was gutted in the process. The Princes have a higher initiative and reroll everything on the table (provided Warp Time goes off), so they generally kill as many of my marines as they have attacks. Combined with the high toughness, rerollable armor saves, and multiple wounds these are pieces I have a hard time dealing with. I would look at just avoiding them, but with wings they can engage most anywhere and quickly.

 

The Plague Marines are a similar problem. They're as good or better than my assault squads at anything they care to do, save that their initiative is lower. Their defensive grenades blunt any charges they receive while their equipment means they're adept at shooting while still being as effective as my own troops in melee. We both have FNP, but the Plague Marines is baked in, whereas mine is tied to a single model that can be picked out for extra love. The extra toughness is the killer here. Normally I feel good on a charge, but losing the extra attack hurts and wounding on 4s means that my charging marines are on par with his standing marines. The Sanguinary Guard can run through these squads, but they can't be everywhere and often only get the one charge in before being swallowed in counter-assaults. I can, and have, thrown multiple assault squads at them to no effect, resulting in a slap fight that lasts for a few turns before my troops are ground down to dust.

 

The Obliterators are nasty, but nothing overwhelming. In the end I think the failing here is my core: assault squads. They don't do much to the Princes, don't do much to the Plague Marines, and would probably be just as ineffective against the Obliterators. They're essentially power fists with ablative wounds, and my fists have been giving me the finger when it's time for them to get to work. I don't think that either Death Company or Tactical squads are the answer, but at this point I'm prepared to make some sweeping changes in hopes of better results.

Well, your list isnt helping you any here and as you've identified neither are you using what you are taking in the best way...

 

Dont take ML's - take heavy plasmas, still wound on a 2+, no PA and no FNP, but a blast marker so you can hit more than 1 - with a good shot you might take out 3 or 4 plague marines in one go.

 

Charge the Princes with a 10-man squad with a PF in it if you have to - by the time he's beaten the ablative wounds to death your PF ought to have had 5 or 7 swings at him.

 

Your SG squad will make mincemeat of plague marines - so use them there. Just because you have Power Weapons and shiny armour doesnt mean you should be going after the big boys.

 

Your assault squads are probably best used defending your devs from DS oblits, and countering/delaying those Princes. Your Plague marine killers are your devs and your SG, your expendables are the assault marines -I'd suggest 1 kept as a 10-man, other 2 split into 5 man teams - both specials (should be plasma btw) in 1 squad, 4 meatshields and Sergeant in the other. Meltaguns are short-ranged overkill for Rhinos, while plasmas are longer ranged and with the 2nd shot better than meltas within 12".

[Coopervisor]

I've had problems along those same lines. Plague marines shrug off anything but PW or Plasma/melta fire. The combo of T5 3+/4+FNP, blight grenades, bolt pistol and CCW means RAS stand no chance in combat. I've had success with las/plas razor backs and SG backed by priests though.

 

I'll certainly give a dread with talons a try though after reading this!

[Firedrake28]

Just a quick thing - Daemon Princes don't get to re-roll their saves with Warptime. Warptime is a power that allows the Prince to re-roll his failed To Hit and To Wound rolls and that's it. If your opponent has been re-rolling everything I'm not surprised that you're having a hard time beating the Princes.

 

As for Talon Dreads, I'd suggest taking them in pairs or not at all. One is far too easy to immobilize or avoid, but two ups your chances of seeing close combat considerably.

[Brother Nathan]

another thought, dont bother with power weapons instead use lightening claws. str 5 reroling to wound on the charge will likely be more devistating to plague marines than an extra powerweapon attack at str5(which is even more more worth while when your fighting deamon princes...). also dont forget they have defensive grenades so fighting them is like 2 heavily armoured things running into each other. or rather an un moveable object and an unstoppable force... so we must hit them harder. dont just go an assault squad vs a plague squad, even if you have 10 men and a priest, get another squad in there too. rember you loose your charging attack so to make up for it you will need another squad.

but yea plague marines are hard. they havent lived 10k years by being soft ya know...

[JamesI]

I've had problems along those same lines. Plague marines shrug off anything but PW or Plasma/melta fire. The combo of T5 3+/4+FNP, blight grenades, bolt pistol and CCW means RAS stand no chance in combat. I've had success with las/plas razor backs and SG backed by priests though.

 

I'll certainly give a dread with talons a try though after reading this!

Remember plague marines are T 4(5), so krak missiles still are double strength and eliminate FNP from them (and armor due to AP3)

[Cpt. Blood Donator]

I've had problems along those same lines. Plague marines shrug off anything but PW or Plasma/melta fire. The combo of T5 3+/4+FNP, blight grenades, bolt pistol and CCW means RAS stand no chance in combat. I've had success with las/plas razor backs and SG backed by priests though.

 

I'll certainly give a dread with talons a try though after reading this!

Remember plague marines are T 4(5), so krak missiles still are double strength and eliminate FNP from them (and armor due to AP3)

 

And as such, I'd take those over plasmacannons any day.

[TheHarrower]

Death Company! Give them a PW and PF led by a Reclusiarch. S5 on the charge rerolling hits and misses is bad ass. Also a DC Dreadnaught with talons will carve them up. The only thing you give up to the Plague Marines on the charge is an extra attack. You still get Furious Charge and if they are already engaged in close combat no defensive grenades. I dunno, Plague Marines have never been a problem for me. You run any vehicles or is this a Deep Strike list? How many points you playing at?

[Redo]

Whilst you have some hard CC unit you have not hammer units that can effectively counter the Daemon Princes. I like to rock a Vanguard Squad with a few Storm Shields and would maube drop the Sang Guard. These chaps also have a Lightning Claw, A power Weapon and a Thunder Hammer. The TH means that if combat goes hopefully to the second round that the VG have the upper hand.

 

I also think a Dread with Talons would be a super idea. I would also consider getting an Honour Guard Squad. Consolidate one of your Sang Priests there and make sure that the unit has a few Power weapons or Lightning Claws and one or two storm Shields. With the Libby those re-rolls with Unleash Rage will also help to negate the lost attack dice and with these Power wepon wielding units PMs stya dead.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I concur.

 

G

[Demitra]

So Furiosos with Blood Talons, I like the sound of that. My only reservation there is that they wouldn't keep up with the rest of the force. My Devs are generally stationary and blazing away while the jumpers head towards the fight. The Dreads wouldn't keep up with the jumpers but would arrive a turn or two after first contact, and by then it'd probably be too late. Dread delivery is then either by drop pod or Stormraven. I love the idea of a Stormraven but have yet to succeed in making a list with one that I'd feel comfortable playing as it's a bunch of points all in one place. Drop pods are a nice idea, but having that initial turn of standing around combined with reserve rolls means they're likely to show up when they please. How do I get these big not-quite-dead guys into the fight in a timely manner?

 

Funny story about Honor Guards and Sanguinary Guards. The SG was going to be an HG, except that the FLGS didn't have the DC box I was going to use for an HG. They did have a SG box though, and they've been in the list since. I had some trouble figuring how to use the unit, but I think I have a better handle on it now. That said, they're still first on the list of things to be replaced. HG loadout has been a sticking point, but I would like one that has ranged punch. I've been running the Libby with Shield and Blood Lance as he doesn't really want to be in combat because he's not too good at it. I did try out Unleash Rage today and found it quite agreeable, but the Libby is still awful squishy. An Honor Guard of 2 LC/PG and 2 PG/SS guys would be a nice mix of everything, but also very expensive. However they're equipped, an Honor Guard is at the top of the 'to add' list.

 

Unfortunately none of this deals with the core of the problem: what do my Troops do? I like the big glob of assault marines, but would a simple swap of melta for plasma be effective? Would I be better off looking to Tactical squads? The lack of effectiveness from my core is the most frustrating part of this. What if I keep the assault squads but take off the jump packs and put them in Rhinos?

 

Thanks for the input (and pointer to the other thread, which I found). You've all given me plenty to mull over. Time to hit the (army) books again.

[daboarder]

I've had problems along those same lines. Plague marines shrug off anything but PW or Plasma/melta fire. The combo of T5 3+/4+FNP, blight grenades, bolt pistol and CCW means RAS stand no chance in combat. I've had success with las/plas razor backs and SG backed by priests though.

 

I'll certainly give a dread with talons a try though after reading this!

Remember plague marines are T 4(5), so krak missiles still are double strength and eliminate FNP from them (and armor due to AP3)

 

but plasma Cannons are AP2 so their not getting FNP from those either and both are wounding on 2+

 

Edit: I don't know why you think RAS with a preist is not effective, I think perhaps your not using them entirely the way you should be. you need to use their speed to gang up on targets. instead of throwing one squad into another squad and matching up along the line, gang up on individual squads with 2 or more of your own ensuring you crush him in assualt. FC from the priests strips him of one of hie biggest advantages against other MEQ's ie: T4(5). if you have to dont deepstrike right on top of him, that only leads to being counter charged in his turn, its a common mistake in DOA and Deamon armies though its less of a problem in a list with Vanguard vets as you can pin his units in combat to prevent this.

[Firedrake28]

I've had problems along those same lines. Plague marines shrug off anything but PW or Plasma/melta fire. The combo of T5 3+/4+FNP, blight grenades, bolt pistol and CCW means RAS stand no chance in combat. I've had success with las/plas razor backs and SG backed by priests though.

 

I'll certainly give a dread with talons a try though after reading this!

Remember plague marines are T 4(5), so krak missiles still are double strength and eliminate FNP from them (and armor due to AP3)

 

but plasma Cannons are AP2 so their not getting FNP from those either and both are wounding on 2+

 

Missile launchers are useful against a wider range of targets, though. They're better against vehicles of all kinds, do well against infantry (either heavy or light due to two ammunition types), have a longer range, don't overheat and so on.

[daboarder]

hmm plasma cannons are good against light vehicles provided you take them in groups IE: devs. their one of those weapons whose tactical effectiveness increase exponentially the more of them you have whereas the effectiveness of rocket launchers is more of a linear relationship. personally I think the point of intersection between the 2 is 4. at 4 or more your better with plasma in my opinion.

[Firedrake28]

personally I think the point of intersection between the 2 is 4. at 4 or more your better with plasma in my opinion.

 

Tell that to Long Fangs. ;)

[Black Memories]

I strangely don't have many issues with chaos at all with my Blood Angels lists, though they're a much more even matchup when compared to some armies. I still feel like BA have a large tilt in our favor.

 

I didn't see anyone mention Mephiston so I will. Mephiston is a POWERHOUSE against chaos armies, specifically plague marines. Also I'm not sure your friend isn't mega cheesing you. Here's why:

 

Warp-time only effects hit and wound rolls, not saves.

 

FNP is base toughness only, chaos marks (nurgle) that add toughness are specifically called out in the rulebook as not modifying the base toughness of the models.

 

He's somehow managing to hide a daemon prince behind a rhino. The Daemon prince is a monsterous creature and requires a model of "accurate size" to represent him on the field. I don't see any way your opponent could possibly hide a daemon prince behind a rhino from your missiles. Even if he is obscured by the rhino, his 4+ obscured save doesn't get any better than it already is.

 

As others have suggested, multiple assault your units. Use assault squads in tandems. If your assault squads with a sang priest w/ a power weapon(or lightning claw) cannot bring down a plague marine squad then use two.

 

Hammer units are also a good idea. Death company with power weapons and assault terminators with characters in them are absolute murderers against chaos lists.

 

Mephiston will absolutely stomp out anything in his army list bar-none. He goes first and hits like a freight train. He cannot be stopped with psychic power checks either (no hoods or 3d6 required). He'll even handle the daemon princes with being able to hood their powers and also if you get a wound or two on the daemon prince before Meph charges, he's almost guaranteed to kill the prince.

[DreadLift]

One thing I was thinking of trying against Plague marine style armies before I posted on here was a trio of vindicators, just the basic loadout. I still think that you could blob the hell out of plague marines with 3 of those templates and while your enemy is trying to take them out your creeping forward with your CC units. I generally play 1250pts but I think for bigger games I will be adding some vindicators next. I went with more dreads because they were a cheaper purchase but I think next time I may splash out.

[JamesI]

I've had problems along those same lines. Plague marines shrug off anything but PW or Plasma/melta fire. The combo of T5 3+/4+FNP, blight grenades, bolt pistol and CCW means RAS stand no chance in combat. I've had success with las/plas razor backs and SG backed by priests though.

 

I'll certainly give a dread with talons a try though after reading this!

Remember plague marines are T 4(5), so krak missiles still are double strength and eliminate FNP from them (and armor due to AP3)

 

but plasma Cannons are AP2 so their not getting FNP from those either and both are wounding on 2+

 

Missile launchers are useful against a wider range of targets, though. They're better against vehicles of all kinds, do well against infantry (either heavy or light due to two ammunition types), have a longer range, don't overheat and so on.

This. I might have extraordinary bad luck with scatter, but I try to avoid small blast weapons as I tend to catch nothing. Missile launchers are better for killing dreads, rhinos, most transports and are more likely (though its not a good %) to kill predators.