Primarchs are made from Chaos

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

Page 201: "Magnus nodded, and Ahriman saw how pale his skin had become. His long red hair was matted with sweat, and Ahriman thought he could see the writhing veins and pulsing organs beneath the primarch’s skin. That was a lie, for Ahriman had seen into the heart of Magnus, and there was nothing so mundane as liver, lungs or kidney within that immortal frame."

 

 

After recently finding out that the primarchs aren't made of flesh and blood, like previously assumed, they are made of Chaos energy, I started to wonder.

 

This would explain a lot of things - for example, why Magnus was so powerful, why all the primarchs had some psychic power, why the primarchs don't age (beyond a certain point), how the primarchs plan on ressurecting themselves, how Guillemanns is healing, and why the primarchs themselves seemed to be representative of a single emotion.

 

However, this also raises several questions -

 

1) How is it possible that Fulgrim is possessed?

 

2) How can geneseed work?

 

3) What exactly was the Emperor bio-engineering, if not the primarchs, as its stated that he's done?

 

4) How did Khan get in the Commoragh?

 

5) Why didn't the primarchs dissapear after a year or so, considering the amount of Warp energy they would require to be mantained in the materiel universe? Although this would explain howthe Empror planned it all, too - The Emperor set them up to completely unite the galaxy, within a certain time limit, and when their allotted time ran out, so too would their Warp energy run out and they would simply disappear.

 

 

So, what do you guys think?

 

EDIT: My brain worked faster than my typing.

[Legatus]

Page 201: "Magnus nodded, and Ahriman saw how pale his skin had become. His long red hair was matted with sweat, and Ahriman thought he could see the writhing veins and pulsing organs beneath the primarch’s skin. That was a lie, for Ahriman had seen into the heart of Magnus, and there was nothing so mundane as liver, lungs or kidney within that immortal frame."

After recently finding out that the primarchs aren't made of flesh and blood, like previously assumed, they are made of Chaos energy, I started to wonder.

I hope the quote you have given is not what you base that on, since it is obviously not meant to be taken literally, and Ahriman is merely expressing how grand a Primarch is. There are several references to the enhanced metabolism of a Primarch in the Horus Heresy series, how their wounds are starting to heal, how during a fight between two Primarchs one heart will be punctured, etc. There is also the issue of the Space Marine Legions being based on the genetic material of the Primarchs.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

Page 201: "Magnus nodded, and Ahriman saw how pale his skin had become. His long red hair was matted with sweat, and Ahriman thought he could see the writhing veins and pulsing organs beneath the primarch’s skin. That was a lie, for Ahriman had seen into the heart of Magnus, and there was nothing so mundane as liver, lungs or kidney within that immortal frame."

After recently finding out that the primarchs aren't made of flesh and blood, like previously assumed, they are made of Chaos energy, I started to wonder.

I hope the quote you have given is not what you base that on, since it is obviously not meant to be taken literally, and Ahriman is merely expressing how grand a Primarch is. There are several references to the enhanced metabolism of a Primarch in the Horus Heresy series, how their wounds are starting to heal, how during a fight between two Primarchs one heart will be punctured, etc. There is also the issue of the Space Marine Legions being based on the genetic material of the Primarchs.

There are two sides to that argument.

 

1) This could merely be what the Primarchs and their Legions see, not knowing it was actually the daemonic nature of the Primarchs themselves, and so thought and assumed it was due to their metabolism. This woud have been reinforced by the secular nature of the Imperium.

 

2) What you said, and the writer merely used poor wording. However, I do not think this is the case, because typically with 40k if it's not normal (mundane), it's chaotic.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

I'm wondering where you got the notion that they were made "from Chaos energy" or that they aren't "flesh and blood", as I can recall no such statements having been presented throughout the HH series.

[Don the Oiler]

I'd be really concerned if my liver started pulsing

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

I'm pretty sure the quote just meant they have more advanced, bizarre organs, not that they completely lack organs. Consider that a.) they bleed, and b.) during the Horus Heresy, Horus underwent some amount of (unsuccessful) surgery after being poisoned on Davin. While their bodies are enhanced via warp energy, they aren't completely constructed out of the stuff. They're more akin to psykers than daemons.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

I'm wondering where you got the notion that they were made "from Chaos energy" or that they aren't "flesh and blood", as I can recall no such statements having been presented throughout the HH series.

Very first thing on the start of the topic. I questioned the thought too.

 

Rev. - Interesting. That may be possible, it explains the inconsistencies of fluff and how Fulgrim was possessed as well as the rest of the questions.

 

However, I think it would be more akin to neutrally possessed than psykers, with the way you're describing it - their bodies are natural but enhanced by daemonic energy?

[Clewz]

I'd question them all having psychic power. I'm pretty sure in Fulgrim, Fulgrim comments that he has no powers of that kind

[Billuriye]

I'd question them all having psychic power. I'm pretty sure in Fulgrim, Fulgrim comments that he has no powers of that kind

 

They are all warp infused though.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Yep, they're supposed to be infused with Warp energy, and enhanced by it, but they aren't manifested daemons. The reason Magnus can do what he can though is because he's reached such a high level of psychic ability, and is able to restructure his body so totally, as well as utilising warp energy to do so, that he can technically turn into whatever form he desires. He's the ultimate Biomancer, but still flesh and blood "beneath" it all. The other Primarchs don't have this level of psychic ability, and so are "just" super-advanced beings, having been genetically engineered to near perfection.

[Legatus]

That was a lie, for Ahriman had seen into the heart of Magnus, and there was nothing so mundane as liver, lungs or kidney within that immortal frame.

I think that like is simply an expression of reverential denialism. For example, this could be a line from an Ultramarine:

 

"He saw the bolt puncture Calgar's armour and his Chapter Master sinking down. But he knew his eyes must be playing tricks at him, for he knew that no simple bolt could harm the great Marneus Augustus Calgar. He was made of pure awesome."

[stuckinbermuda]

When they were being created in their vats how were they described? I don't remember them being anything like a fetus or embryo etc. but more like swirling energy. Perhaps what the emperor did was distill warp energy into seperate elemental parts, which is why each Primarch embodies a particular aspect and naturally about half of them would embody the potential to turn to evil. In addition to the four (5?) known chaos gods, the emperor was essentially creating his own pantheon of chaos demi-gods with him set up as their overall ruler, very much like the ancient Greek pantheon under Zeus. If the Emperor "Cracked" chaos warp energy down into 20 or so separate states and then infused those states into bio-engineered flesh golems it would explain the process to some degree and also their weakness and predestined return to their natural base destinies. At one end of the spectrum there would be one for ultimate order and another for ultimate chaos, one for absolute love and beauty and another for absolute hate. The emperor should have experimented more and only made the ones with potential for good :D Sure he harnessed amazing force and drive with Horus but he should have seen the writing on the wall that it was going to end in disaster, it is the emperor's fault for being over confidant in his creations.

[GooseDaMoose]

When they were being created in their vats how were they described? I don't remember them being anything like a fetus or embryo etc. but more like swirling energy.

 

Actually I found a description in the First Heretic:

 

A child slumbered within the gestation pod, curled up in foetal helplessness, its eyes closed. It turned slowly in the amniotic milk, half-formed limbs moving in somnolent repose.

 

...and are generally described as "child" and "foetus" in every other book where the Primarch babies are mentioned. Dark Apostle Thirst I think you might be taking the sentence too literally.

[stuckinbermuda]

page 284 of False Gods

 

"Horus turns from Sejanus and marched along the walkway, stopping periodically to peer through the glass of the tanks. He saw something different in each one, light and form indistinguishable, organisms like architecture, eyes and wheels turning in circles of fire. Power like nothing he had known was at work, and he could feel the potent energies surrounding and protecting the tanks, rippling across his skin like waves in the air."

 

This is while they were being created and before they were cast out across the galaxy. It sounds very much like the emperor was creating them out of warp energy.

[Billuriye]

I think that like is simply an expression of reverential denialism. For example, this could be a line from an Ultramarine:

 

"He saw the bolt puncture Calgar's armour and his Chapter Master sinking down. But he knew his eyes must be playing tricks at him, for he knew that no simple bolt could harm the great Marneus Augustus Calgar. He was made of pure awesome."

 

 

It's not reverential denialism. Your example is weird though i'm not sure how did you come up with that. It's not like Ahriman can't believe that his primarch's spine's just broken.

[Legatus]

It's not reverential denialism. Your example is weird though i'm not sure how did you come up with that. It's not like Ahriman can't believe that his primarch's spine's just broken.

I think that's exactly what it is. Mainly because we have seen other evidence of such points of view from other Marines or even Primarchs. Here is one from "The Lightning Tower", though it is not nearly as exaggerated:

 

"This should never have been necessary. I search the Limits of my imagination, and still I can conceive of nothing that begins to explain this war. Pride and ambition, insult, jealousy? They are not enough, not nearly enough, not for a primarch. They are too petty and mortal to drive a primarch to such extremity."

 

And that was Rogal Dorn speaking, himself a primarch.

 

In the case of the quote with Ahriman and Magnus from the original post in this thread, it is clearly Ahriman observing the marks of physical strain on his Primarch, but then denying that this could be possible.

[GooseDaMoose]

It sounds very much like the emperor was creating them out of warp energy.

 

True, but we have to take what Horus sees with a pinch of salt considering that he was tripping balls. But no, true enough, it does seem to be pretty universally agreed that the Primarchs were created through some shifty onorthodox means and probably with a bit of help from the Gods. It's suggested that the Emperor thought he could outwit the Gods and struck a deal with them to make the Primarchs. But we don't really know what it's all about.

 

But that is a FAR cry from them being beings made out of Warp-stuff. For one, we don't know for a fact that Guilliman is healing, it is merely believed that he is by certain Ultramarines and, considering the fact that he is in a stasis field where it would be physically impossible for anything to happen at all, I don't put much stock in that theory. Secondly, if Primarchs were pure, unadulterated Warp-stuff why would they start their lives as babies anyway? And dude, I'm sorry, but Primarchs representing a single emotion is a gross oversimplification and I didn't even understand the thing about Primarchs resurrecting themselves lol

 

For the most part though, you're assuming that quote means what you thinks it means and then bring up 5 points (4 good ones - Khan being in Commaragh is just another theory) that completely debunk said theory. Could you perhaps elaborate on why, despite the evidence against it, you still think that's the case?

[Don the Oiler]

You can interpret that quote any way you want. "Had seen into the heart of Magnus" would mean he does at least possess something as mundane as a heart if you take it literally. Maybe Primarchs don't have livers and kidneys, for they have superior organs performing these functions. Since at least some Primarchs are recorded to wear helmets, i'm pretty sure they breathe, so they probably have at least something similar to lungs.

Last but not least, what Ahriman observed *could* have been a sign of the coming ascension (or descent?) to daemonhood, although the book didn't seem to imply it at that point.

Personally, i don't take these words literally, they contradict too many other things described in other novels. But this is 40K after all, its hard to find two sources that *don't* contradict each other.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

But that is a FAR cry from them being beings made out of Warp-stuff. For one, we don't know for a fact that Guilliman is healing, it is merely believed that he is by certain Ultramarines and, considering the fact that he is in a stasis field where it would be physically impossible for anything to happen at all, I don't put much stock in that theory. Secondly, if Primarchs were pure, unadulterated Warp-stuff why would they start their lives as babies anyway? And dude, I'm sorry, but Primarchs representing a single emotion is a gross oversimplification and I didn't even understand the thing about Primarchs resurrecting themselves lol

 

For the most part though, you're assuming that quote means what you thinks it means and then bring up 5 points (4 good ones - Khan being in Commaragh is just another theory) that completely debunk said theory. Could you perhaps elaborate on why, despite the evidence against it, you still think that's the case?

I believe it, simply because it explains so many things, especially what the Emperor's plan was.

 

Oh, and the primarchs somehow believe they can ressurect themselves - Vulkan, for example, says he will 'come back' after all the objects have been found, and the Wolf, in his dying breath, states that he will come back 'beyond even the gates of death'. I think there are a couple other examples of this - I think Dorn has some prophecy where he gets to participate in the final battle, I'm not sure, and Corax is... where?

 

Like Legatus's argument, so does the Guillemann/stasis field have two sides.

 

1) The Ultramarines could simply refuse to believe that he is slowly healing, because it's believed to be impossible and if they get their hopes up and nothing happens it'll really, really suck, so they simply don't allow themselves to believe at all, even if he is slowly healing.

 

2) Like you said, it is impossible, and the mortal Guillemann is the same as he was when he waqs first interred.

 

 

However, I didn't bring this topic up to argue my point of view - I brought it up to see the debate over it, and to see how that would turn out.

[GooseDaMoose]

I don't understand, what does it explain, especially regarding what the Emperor's plan was?

 

I think the resurrection thing is based on some pretty shifty background knowledge on your part. Vulkan never said that they needed to gather the artefacts and he would return. He just "went away" saying he would return for the End Times, whatever that may mean. Leman Russ is not dead, and also just claimed he would return for the "Great Feast". Dorn is dead, and his skeleton (sans hands) is kept on the Phalanx I think, where have you heard of this prophecy? Corax also just disappeared after what he did to his Legion. But look the point I'm trying to make is that none of these point to them being daemon Warp beasts.

 

I really didn't understand what conclusion you came to with the Guilliman stasis field argument. The fact is that nothing can move or happen in a stasis field. By the very definition of it being a stasis field.

 

And you're not gonna argue for your statement but you won't listen to or even consider any of the many, many valid counter-arguments that have been brought up on this thread? I don't see how you can make such unorthodox and unfounded claims if you have no intention of backing it up, or even argue for it.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

I don't understand, what does it explain, especially regarding what the Emperor's plan was?

 

I think the resurrection thing is based on some pretty shifty background knowledge on your part. Vulkan never said that they needed to gather the artefacts and he would return. He just "went away" saying he would return for the End Times, whatever that may mean. Leman Russ is not dead, and also just claimed he would return for the "Great Feast". Dorn is dead, and his skeleton (sans hands) is kept on the Phalanx I think, where have you heard of this prophecy? Corax also just disappeared after what he did to his Legion. But look the point I'm trying to make is that none of these point to them being daemon Warp beasts.

 

I really didn't understand what conclusion you came to with the Guilliman stasis field argument. The fact is that nothing can move or happen in a stasis field. By the very definition of it being a stasis field.

 

And you're not gonna argue for your statement but you won't listen to or even consider any of the many, many valid counter-arguments that have been brought up on this thread? I don't see how you can make such unorthodox and unfounded claims if you have no intention of backing it up, or even argue for it.

What? :huh: No, false, all of it.

 

The Emperor plan thing was explained in the first post. The Primarchs unite the galaxy, and their organs fail after a certain amount of time, because the Emperor only 'bought' so much Warp energy for them through daemonic pacts. Poof, we have perfect, all human galaxies, and the primarchs can't rise up because they're all dead.

 

The Salamanders believe that Vulkan will return when the nine artifacts are gathered, at least according to the fluff next to Vulkan He'stan's unit description. That's why they even have a Forgefather.

 

I remembered incorrectly for Dorn, then. My bad.

 

Leman Russ, contary to popular belief, is indeed dead -

Listen but closely my brother, for my life's breath is all but spent. There shall come time when our Chapter itself is dying, even as I am now dying, and our foes shall gather to destroy us, Then, my children, I shall listen for your call in whatever realm of death holds me, and come I shall no matter what the laws of life and death forbid. At the end I will be there. For the final battle. For the Wolftime." - Last words of Leman Russ, Primarch of the Space Wolves

Codex, Space Wolves.

 

- And clearly believes he can somehow come back. Ignoring the laws of life and death is standard business for daemonic creatures.

[GooseDaMoose]

You know what, maybe you're right. We really don't actually know what the dealio is with the Primarch so for all we know they might very well be Warp constructs. I would, however, not argue that that quote proves that as a fact and I reacted to how casually you assumed it was. But I really shouldn't have, I guess I was just being the Internet Police.

 

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_EM09PgpXAq4/TSyyqJOV_CI/AAAAAAAAABQ/_U90Aje9w_8/s1600/someone_is_wrong_on_the_internet1.jpg

 

 

Anyway, I'm off! Bye!

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

Rev. - Interesting. That may be possible, it explains the inconsistencies of fluff and how Fulgrim was possessed as well as the rest of the questions.

 

However, I think it would be more akin to neutrally possessed than psykers, with the way you're describing it - their bodies are natural but enhanced by daemonic energy?

I'm not sure if I'd describe it as such. Consider how there are many psychic powers which use warp energy to enhance the user's abilities (Hammerhand, Might of the Ancients etc.) The way I'm reading it, it seems like the primarchs simply had powers such of these unconsciously active at all times, thus granting them their abilities beyond what even pure genetic engineering could lead to.

[Legatus]

I believe it, simply because it explains so many things

The Primarch being warp creatures could explain a lot of things. But so could saying "it was all magicks". There are more probably explanations.

 

 

This would explain a lot of things - for example, why Magnus was so powerful,

Maybe that was because the Primarchs were the most powerful being aside from the Emperor, and because Magnus used his super human intellect to master psionics. This is not at all difficult to fathom.

 

 

why all the primarchs had some psychic power

I don't know that they did. But if they all got a powerful warp presence (like all mortals do), then that would explain latent psychic talents, or simply immunity to warp attacks.

 

 

why the primarchs don't age (beyond a certain point)

Space Marines can get several hundred years old. The Emperor himself is immortal. It is obvious that Primarchs could get older than Space Marines, and might even be immortal like the Emperor. Of course, all non-daemon primarchs are eitehr dead ir have disappeared, so there is no way for us to know.

 

 

how the primarchs plan on ressurecting themselves

They don't plan on doing that. Popular folklore 10,000 years after their disappearance says that they might.

 

 

how Guillemanns is healing

He isn't. Popular folklore says that he might.

 

 

and why the primarchs themselves seemed to be representative of a single emotion.

They weren't. But it is allways fun to see meaning in things and assign a distinct theme, number, animal, emotion, or day of the month to each member of a select group.

 

 

The Salamanders believe that Vulkan will return when the nine artifacts are gathered, at least according to the fluff next to Vulkan He'stan's unit description. That's why they even have a Forgefather.

The Salamanders' legends also tell that the Emperor and Vulkan held a contest for 8 days, one entire day was spent forging a weapon, which the contestants would then use to slay a fire breathing dragon. All the first founding Chapters have their legends. The more tribal based Chapters are a bit more mythical in their accounts than, say, the Raven Guard, Imperial Fists or Ultramarines.

 

 

Leman Russ, contary to popular belief, is indeed dead -

(...)

- And clearly believes he can somehow come back. Ignoring the laws of life and death is standard business for daemonic creatures.

The Space Wolves also have tales of how Leman Russ once catched a kraken whose arms stretched around the entirety of Fenris. IIRC they have tales of how Leman Russ slew the giant wolf in the sky that wanted to devour the sun.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

Rev. - Interesting. That may be possible, it explains the inconsistencies of fluff and how Fulgrim was possessed as well as the rest of the questions.

 

However, I think it would be more akin to neutrally possessed than psykers, with the way you're describing it - their bodies are natural but enhanced by daemonic energy?

I'm not sure if I'd describe it as such. Consider how there are many psychic powers which use warp energy to enhance the user's abilities (Hammerhand, Might of the Ancients etc.) The way I'm reading it, it seems like the primarchs simply had powers such of these unconsciously active at all times, thus granting them their abilities beyond what even pure genetic engineering could lead to.

That works as well, better than my explanation <_< Leaves the Emperor's plan and the primarch's ressurection unexplained, though, but it is much more plausible. It also explains some of the primarchs's stranger powers too

 

Goose - That's cool. I was simply assuming that the primarchs were for the sake of this thread, nothing more, nothing less.

 

Besides, apparently I take the role of the internet police fairly often too :devil: