The Don'ts of Traitor geneseed

[Valkyrion]

It was always traditionally accepted that you shouldn't use traitor geneseed in your DIY chapter, but I'm wondering if more recent fluff, namely the HH series, has opened it up for debate?

 

I know that the traitors turned to chaos, some of them anyway, but so have loyalist chapters since, yet we still use Imperial Fists and Ultramarine geneseed, so the threat of corruption is still as relevant now.

 

During the HH only the Word Bearers actually openly turned to chaos worship, they were the first, and everything else that followed was simply circumstance.

The HH was a rebellion, not everyone turning to chaos.

 

Angron and the World Eaters used implants, so presumably the geneseed was relatively sound.

The Death Guard turned to nurgle as a result of events after the HH, and Garro is clearly sound.

The Alpha Legion haven't turned to chaos.

The Emperors Children had a daemonically possessed Primarch, but the primarch was invaded by it, not inviting it in, before Fabius modified them.

The Night Lords hate the emperor. Maybe that is a geneseed issue, maybe it's just the way they are.

The Iron Warriors were again rebelling, not overtly worshipping chaos.

 

The purity of some of the traitor legions went into the founding of the purest of the pure chapter ever.

 

So the way I see it is that only the Word Bearers, the Thousand Sons (inherent mutation) and Black Legion geneseeds should be outlawed.

 

Isn't the curse, and therefore the geneseed, of the Blood Angels post Heresy not worse than that of the Alpha Legion or mind altered World Eaters?

 

I accept that there are probably massive stocks of proper geneseed and the need to use traitor geneseed would be minimal, but is it not more possible now than it has been in the past?

[The 13th Goat]

All very valid points. If I had enough stamps, I'd post it to the High Lords ASAP. ;)

[Ferrata]

You arguement would be sound in a logical universe, however the Imperium is not a logical univere :D

 

Speaking seriously, whilst the gene-seeds of the traitor legions might be pure they are tainted by the fall of the Primarch. Whilst Ultramarines and successor chapters have fallen, Guilliman never did. The Imperium believes that the gene-seeds are very strongly linked to the primarchs, so if Fulgrim fell what is to stop chapters of his seed fall? The link between gene-seed and Primarch can be seen with the Blood Angels, so it is actually quite likely the Imperium is right that the traitor gene-seed would be the most easily corrupted.

 

It really does boil down to sins of the father :D

[Valkyrion]

I was thinking more for the creation of specialist chapters.

I know there are lots of chapters who excel at one thing over another, but 98% (random high figure plucked from the air) are codex adherent. There's only really the Space Wolves of the original loyalists who haven't picked up the codex methods. Maybe the Iron Hands, though I don't know a lot about them, neither of which spawn any/many successors.

 

If you want a Flesh Tearers that isn't dying, use World Eaters geneseed.

If you want a dedicated siege/fortification chapter, use Iron Warriors.

If you want a dark angels implaccability without the chance of hotfooting out of there on any whim and whisper then use Death Guard.

 

That sort of thing.

 

I know there will be a stigama/guilt by association thing with using traitor geneseed, but if only the HLOT know then they won't get grief from other chapters.

[Epistolary Exander]

It really does boil down to sins of the father :D

 

Then why would Malcador probably have chosen geneseed of the Emperor on the Grey Knights? The Emperor has had more than his fair share of blonde moments, compared to most of the Primarchs. The last thing you would want from a force such as a Grey Knights is them making bad judgement quite often, that would be more damaging than having the Grey Knights fighting the Daemons.

[Epistolary Exander]

I was thinking more for the creation of specialist chapters.

I know there are lots of chapters who excel at one thing over another, but 98% (random high figure plucked from the air) are codex adherent. There's only really the Space Wolves of the original loyalists who haven't picked up the codex methods. Maybe the Iron Hands, though I don't know a lot about them, neither of which spawn any/many successors.

 

If you want a Flesh Tearers that isn't dying, use World Eaters geneseed.

If you want a dedicated siege/fortification chapter, use Iron Warriors.

If you want a dark angels implaccability without the chance of hotfooting out of there on any whim and whisper then use Death Guard.

 

That sort of thing.

 

I know there will be a stigama/guilt by association thing with using traitor geneseed, but if only the HLOT know then they won't get grief from other chapters.

 

It is rumoured that some of the cursed and/ or dark founding chapters may have partially used some of the traitor geneseed. For example Imperial organisations are wary of the similiarity between the Sons of Anteus & the pre-heresy Death Guard, as the Sons of Anteus are remarkably hard to kill even by marine standards.

 

There is a negligible chance that traitor geneseed has been used for creating chapters. The most likely reason for it would either be a High Lord being a bit crazy & discretely odering the use of traitor geneseed or one of Mechanicum priests working founding the new chapter got bored or researching loyalist geneseed & so somehow got his hands on traitor geneseed & used that on the new chapter.

[Ferrata]

You cannot doubt the Emperor, for that path only leads to death and heresy :D

 

Whilst the HH books are really making the Emperor come across as the lowest ranked possibility for the Dad of the Year award, and past IAs have shown that he wasn't always the most human of people, for defence against Chaos there is only one choice - Him. If you think about how long the Emperor had been alive, certain things that seem massive deals to use become rather trivial, so it stands to reason he made some bad moves. Also, blonde moments does not mean evil moments. I much rather have my Grey Knights stupid and fighting for me then clever and fighting against me :P

 

Specialism doesn't come from genetics, it comes from training. You could take a Raven Guard successor and make them disdain stealth if you gave them the right teachers. You could make an Imperial Fist successor akin to the Alpha Legion with the right leaders. The traitor gene-seeds have been proved to be weakened when it comes to the whispers of Chaos (in the eyes of the Imperium) and no matter how much we can justify it, it is akin to us suggesting we make a son of [insert evil dictator of choice] because they were really good at inspiring people. :D

[Epistolary Exander]

You cannot doubt the Emperor, for that path only leads to death and heresy :D

 

Whilst the HH books are really making the Emperor come across as the lowest ranked possibility for the Dad of the Year award, and past IAs have shown that he wasn't always the most human of people, for defence against Chaos there is only one choice - Him. If you think about how long the Emperor had been alive, certain things that seem massive deals to use become rather trivial, so it stands to reason he made some bad moves. Also, blonde moments does not mean evil moments. I much rather have my Grey Knights stupid and fighting for me then clever and fighting against me :P

 

Specialism doesn't come from genetics, it comes from training. You could take a Raven Guard successor and make them disdain stealth if you gave them the right teachers. You could make an Imperial Fist successor akin to the Alpha Legion with the right leaders. The traitor gene-seeds have been proved to be weakened when it comes to the whispers of Chaos (in the eyes of the Imperium) and no matter how much we can justify it, it is akin to us suggesting we make a son of [insert evil dictator of choice] because they were really good at inspiring people. ;)

 

Lol I dont doubt the Emperor, I think he conspired with the chaos gods to create the End Times just so he could turn into a Warp God & try to over throw them.

 

Yea Lorgar, Magnus, Russ had blonde moments about them to & werent evil when they did them.

 

Specialism can come from genetics. Look at polar bears & pandas, they wouldnt survive long if you swapped each species environments because they are so adapted to the original environments. If you extend this point to the legions it does hold aswel. Thousand Sons were the most powerful psykers amongst the legions because they had the geneseed of Magnus. While the Iron Warriors probably have the most naturally gifted intelligence of all the legions, this is what made them so good siege specialists as they could out think the enemy fortications etc. Look at the Death Guard, they were known to be naturally hard to kill by Astartes standards even before they gave into Nurgle to become Plague Marines. So the choice of geneseed can be a very important factor if your are intending to create a niche military organisation. The Imperium has even done this with the choice of geneseed for the Grey Knights, because they knew everything would need the best of the best at being anti chaos in order for the Grey Knights to be the sucsess they are.

[Valkyrion]

Specialism doesn't come from genetics, it comes from training. You could take a Raven Guard successor and make them disdain stealth if you gave them the right teachers. You could make an Imperial Fist successor akin to the Alpha Legion with the right leaders. The traitor gene-seeds have been proved to be weakened when it comes to the whispers of Chaos (in the eyes of the Imperium) and no matter how much we can justify it, it is akin to us suggesting we make a son of [insert evil dictator of choice] because they were really good at inspiring people. :D

 

So....what's the point of using any geneseed other than Ultramarine then? Why use Imperial Fist or White Scar geneseed if the only difference between the chapters is training?

 

I'm genetically like my parents and even if I were removed from them at birth I would still share a degree of similarity with them.

 

The use of geneseed should make a chapter more like their primarch, and as the primarchs were each created with a specific role in mind, we currently have 9 specific roles that aren't being fulfilled even though we could do.

[Ferrata]

Specialism can come from genetics. Look at polar bears & pandas, they wouldnt survive long if you swapped each species environments because they are so adapted to the original environments.

That is a flawed argument as Polar Bears and Pandas are two seperate species that have evolved to be specialised in their own environments and their specialisms are based upon physical attributes. We are talking about preferences in war, which is not a physical attribute but a mental one.

 

Look at the Death Guard, they were known to be naturally hard to kill by Astartes standards even before they gave into Nurgle to become Plague Marines.

Do we have a reference that this was a physical matter? This has typically been described as a doctrination result - the Death Guard were indoctrinated to keep themselves going, possibly spending time to increase the resilence to pain.

 

So....what's the point of using any geneseed other than Ultramarine then? Why use Imperial Fist or White Scar geneseed if the only difference between the chapters is training?

The Imperial Fists have fewer organs, the White Scars are known to be slightly more savage. We know there are genetic differences between them, but none that says a White Scars chapter have to like bikes. And why use other chapters? Because it makes a more interesting universe and story for us all to play in. Not everything has to make sense in the 40k universe.

 

I'm genetically like my parents and even if I were removed from them at birth I would still share a degree of similarity with them.

I think there is being confusion between being genetically similar to ones parents and to having a similar character. Lets downgrade a preference of taking to battle to what you enjoy doing in your spare time. Some of us would have inherited our love of this hobby from our parents - but it wasn't in our genetics that this was transfered (there isn't a wargaming gene :lol:) but in our up-bringing. Others will have a love of a football team, again this would be due to our upbringing. For a chapter, yes they might have pale skin and black hair (Raven Guard) but that doesn't mean they will walk around in shadows. Just because you are a son of Lorgar, it doesn't mean you are going to be a preacher unless you are brought up like that.

 

The Traitor Gene-seeds are not used because even if there was a genetic link between gene-seed and preference and style of battle, and the Imperium really wanted a sneaky-sneaky chapter (Alpha Legion), in the eyes of the HLoT, the Traitor gene-seeds are tainted by Chaos. How early were the samples taken from the Legions? The tendrils of Chaos were hidden for a long time, it is unknown what affect on the gene-seed this could have had.

[InquisitorHayn]

I think that there is a major point that is missing from this discussion, and that is what exactly the geneseed does. Utilizing geneseed is like playing with DNA. Your DNA defines more of who you are than what you do. That said, individuals with certain genetic traits may have certain predilections or natural aptitudes, but these things dictate how well they can perform certain tasks or how easy they learn them. Your genetics make you predisposed to excellence in given areas, but you must still learn those tasks to discover that aptitude.

 

Take, say, the Deathwatch RPG. Perhaps the character you generate has a high strength score, but low perception. Is he going to fail every roll to see or hear, making him functionally blind and deaf? Of course not. Does he have a much better chance to win an armwrestling match (especially if he's a DA :lol: ) with a Space Wolf? Absolutely. But say he then wishes to throw said Wolf into a garbage chute across the room. By rights, his great strength should allow him to do this but if (in a realistic situation) he never played Gothic basketball as a youth, he may have some difficulty hitting his mark as he never learned that particular skill.

 

Bottom line, Loyalist geneseed has a lesser potential for its recipients to fall to Chaos. Perhaps a certain Traitor line's natural aptitudes would be more beneficial than a Loyalist's in certain situations, but the risk of creating new Traitors by ignoring the aforementioned fact is far too great.

 

Oh and by the way,

Specialism can come from genetics. Look at polar bears & pandas...

Not even the same species. That's just apples and avocados, my friend.

[InquisitorHayn]

Haha. I've been ninja'ed by that sneakiest of sneakers, Ferrata. :lol:

[Guest Mordray]

The biggest draw I can see with traitor gene-seed is that you don't have to explain so much to the audience.

 

 

I remember a chapter... oh yes Ace's Stone Bound. They are white scar's successors but everyone was demanding a fairly extensive explination as to why they weren't obsessed with bikers.

 

The People of this forum and the hobby at large tend to only think of chapters as renamed, recolored, slightly different but tactical/strategy based copies of their gene-seed. If you need an example just look at how many biker list based chapters are white scars successors or how often the reviewer/helper pushes the author to go with WS gene-seed rather then their origianally chosen gene-seed.

 

Also look at all the sally diy successors... damn near everyone is a dragon inspired/based chapter...

[Leonaides]

Thats because the audience there were being foolish because they dont actually understand what they're going on about...

 

Its simpler for someone to think "Oh, White Scars=bikers" than "White Scars = Primarch who grew up on a plains nomad life, in a society that was akin to mongol (so horse warriors, etc, where war is about raiding, speed, hit-and-run tactics...) and chapter are still there coming from the same society, bringing the same ideals to the chapter and reinforcing it......"

 

A chapter using Khans geneseed strain might find that they might 'enjoy' the thrill of high speed combat maybe, but they wouldnt be as extreme as the original chapter unless they had the same teaching and background.

[Ecritter]

It really does boil down to sins of the father :teehee:

 

Then why would Malcador probably have chosen geneseed of the Emperor on the Grey Knights? The Emperor has had more than his fair share of blonde moments, compared to most of the Primarchs. The last thing you would want from a force such as a Grey Knights is them making bad judgement quite often, that would be more damaging than having the Grey Knights fighting the Daemons.

 

I'm sorry did I miss something? Did the new C:GK tell who their geneseed came from?

[Nemesor]

I think the character of a Successor Chapter really depends on gene-seed and training/environmental issues equally.

 

Think about it. The gene-seed of a Primarch is like inheriting parental genes. It's already stated that lots of marines change to resemble their Primarch quite a bit as they are transformed into an Astartes. It doesn't seem that difficult to believe that certain mental characteristics could be inherited from the Primarch's gene-seed too.

 

That said, gene-seed is only the groundwork for a Successor's identity. A lot of their development will depend on the kind of battles they are successful in early in their career, who trains them, and what their homeworld is like.

 

So, for example, maybe a Iron Hands successor is created. Their gene-seed might arguably infect their members with the usual desire for self-improvement and loathing of their own weaknesses common amongst the Iron hands themselves. But perhaps they were not trained by members of the Iron Hands. And as such, they are perhaps not forced to undergo limb-replacements and so on. Already they are diverging from their Primogenitor Chapter.

 

Then, for the sake of argument, let's say they see a lot of success in boarding actions and drop-pod-assaults. This shapes them into a more space-loving Chapter. Maybe they also don't have such good relations with the Adeptus Mechanicus because the Chapter destroyed some precious tech or something.

 

Already you can see that we have a very different Chapter from the Iron Hands. They may share the hatred for their own weakness, but they don't swap their flesh for bionics. They don't get on so well with the AdMech, and they're very heavily fleet-based.

 

So you see, Gene-seed only goes so far, but it does have an influence.

 

In response to the OP: I'd say that those are valid reason, but there is a great stigma and superstition surrounding the gene-seed of the Traitor Primarchs. The Imperium would never let it fly, especially not since they have plenty of pure gene-seed from the guys who didn't turn traitor. So, if it has happened, it happened in secret, and it wouldn't be common. Plus if word ever got out, you can bet they'd be exterminated.

[Ecritter]

I would like to point out that, though B&C regulars push people away from using Traitor Geneseed it does happen and can be reluctantly accepted. My White Hand are an example.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

I would like to point out that, though B&C regulars push people away from using Traitor Geneseed it does happen and can be reluctantly accepted. My White Hand are an example.

 

You forgot the phrase "Shameless self-promotion aside.." :mellow:

[Ferrata]

I would like to point out that, though B&C regulars push people away from using Traitor Geneseed it does happen and can be reluctantly accepted. My White Hand are an example.

One would ask where, outside of the 21st Founding, do we have evidence of the use of Traitor Gene-seed?

 

I would suggest that purely because a chapter with traitor gene-seed is in the Librarium does not mean it is a good idea nor that it occurs within the Imperium.

[soddinnutter]

The 13th founding

 

Also whatever founding was responsible for the Blood Ravens

[Hasoroth]

I really hate reading "Oh you have Imperial Fist geneseed? You must be good at siege lololol"

 

The geneseed ensures that all successors to Rogal Dorn have certain genotypes and phenotypes. It does not mean they are made with +5 to Siege Warfare.

 

 

Geneseed dictates what special organs you might be missing, what minor mutations you might have. To a lesser extent it dictates your Chapter's traditions and culture (although not always true, look at the Mortificators and how different they are to the Ultramarines). It does not mean that your marines are intuitively created with the same aptitudes for certain forms of combat as their predecessors.

[Ecritter]

I would suggest that purely because a chapter with traitor gene-seed is in the Librarium does not mean it is a good idea nor that it occurs within the Imperium.

 

I would suggest just the opposite. It was a hard won battle to get them done and in the Librarium ... I'd even go so far as say some members seem to hate hold animosity towards me bacause of it ... not that I care that much. All in all I'd say I'd not try it again.

 

I just mentioned it (not to say anything about CJJs comment) that it can be accepted here at B&C.

[robot530]

I think asking this question in a chaos forum might have lead to some different replies. Loyalists will of course be against this happening. Under Imperial policy it wouldn't really happen outside of possible cursed foundings. But if we allow that there is corruption at high levels within the Imperium then there is room to play. Perhaps Alpha Legion has created a program for creating a loyalist chapter with traitor genseed within Imperial structures. They have motive for such an action. To create chaos within the Imperium. Whether it is possible to infiltrate this high up into loyalist stuctures would be a matter of what side of the rebellion you stand with. Loyalists would hate the idea and traitors would find it devious if the details were filled out properly and modelled with irony. On the tabletop I can imagine fanatic loyalists looking to crush this heretical force. And the rewards for winning with such a force would be to see the failure of the Imperium to stop such a heresey. As a loyalist I would enjoy crushing such a force. It is a war...factionalism and divisions probably exist and would be exploited.

[Quixus]

The 13th founding

Actually we do not know if traitor Geneseed was used as all records were lost. maybe it was Geneseed form the II and XI Legion :teehee:

 

Also whatever founding was responsible for the Blood Ravens

Heads Up:"A Thousand Sons" all but states

that the Blood Ravens are of Magnus' Geneseed. I don't think the chapter was created after the heresy but that they are simply (part of) the Corvidae.

 

 

If traitor geneseed is off limits for new loyalist chapters iven in-universe, why does the Mechanicum even keep it? Just burn it and be done with it.

[Walter Payton]

You forgot the phrase "Shameless self-promotion aside.." :tu:

 

Shameless self-promotion aside, I tend to envision chapters from the inside out. In other words, start with the mindset and outlook of your chapter, and then decide on the superficial aspects; the homeworld, the geneseed, the colour scheme. Of course, these things are important, but if you are making the character fit the homeworld, then you're doing something wrong. For instance, when I was planning the Iron Tigers, my current project, I wanted them to be so stiff even the rod up their arse has a rod up its arse. So they are Ultramarines descendants.

 

The main problem with using traitor geneseed is that it is unnecessary. I still cannot think of a single instance where the character of a chapter could be enhaced only through the use of traitor geneseed.