The Don'ts of Traitor geneseed

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

You forgot the phrase "Shameless self-promotion aside.." ^_^

 

Shameless self-promotion aside, I tend to envision chapters from the inside out. In other words, start with the mindset and outlook of your chapter, and then decide on the superficial aspects; the homeworld, the geneseed, the colour scheme. Of course, these things are important, but if you are making the character fit the homeworld, then you're doing something wrong. For instance, when I was planning the Iron Tigers, my current project, I wanted them to be so stiff even the rod up their arse has a rod up its arse. So they are Ultramarines descendants.

 

The main problem with using traitor geneseed is that it is unnecessary. I still cannot think of a single instance where the character of a chapter could be enhaced only through the use of traitor geneseed.

To the last bit, agreed.

 

The only two reasons I continue with my own traitor geneseed chapter is because I wanted to realisticly see how a chapter with traitor geneseed would survive, and how it would affect their traditions, heraldry, and things of that nature. The other reason was because I wanted to enhance the the idea of brotherhood between the chapter and another.

 

So, I geuss I disagree :tu: But yes, the vast majority of the cases, you can simply have Flesh Tearer or Ultramarine geneseed, and it will suffer much less.

[Cadorius]

The main problem with using traitor geneseed is that it is unnecessary. I still cannot think of a single instance where the character of a chapter could be enhaced only through the use of traitor geneseed.

 

Traitor geneseed (even the hint of it) can uniquely affect how others view the chapter, and/or how the chapter views itself.

 

Personally I think that it if wasn't there to be used, then it wouldn't be there at all. Storytelling 101.

[Octavulg]

Mordray

I remember a chapter... oh yes Ace's Stone Bound. They are white scar's successors but everyone was demanding a fairly extensive explination as to why they weren't obsessed with bikers.

 

That was because they were trained by a White Scars successor who had been trained by the White Scars, not because their geneseed was that of the White Scars. Chapters in 40K often use similar strategies and adopt similar philosophies to their progenitors. This is environment, not heredity.

 

Personally, I don't care if you want to use traitor geneseed so long as you use the blatantly obvious built in points in the universe where it can be used - the Dark Founding and the Cursed Founding. Once you step outside of that, you start needing better explanations.

 

Ecritter

I would suggest just the opposite. It was a hard won battle to get them done and in the Librarium ... I'd even go so far as say some members seem to hate hold animosity towards me bacause of it ... not that I care that much. All in all I'd say I'd not try it again.

 

The disagreement with the White Hand had more to do with a lack of subtlety in their presentation and a lot of questions as to why the Imperium would do some of the things that were done in the IA than anything else. It was problems with execution, rather than with concept.

[Walter Payton]

The main problem with using traitor geneseed is that it is unnecessary. I still cannot think of a single instance where the character of a chapter could be enhaced only through the use of traitor geneseed.

 

Traitor geneseed (even the hint of it) can uniquely affect how others view the chapter, and/or how the chapter views itself.

 

How? There are plenty of more efficient ways to make them self-questioning or distrusted.

 

The only two reasons I continue with my own traitor geneseed chapter is because I wanted to realisticly see how a chapter with traitor geneseed would survive, and how it would affect their traditions, heraldry, and things of that nature. The other reason was because I wanted to enhance the the idea of brotherhood between the chapter and another.

 

The uniqueness factor of traitor geneseed is completely overrated. It comes from the perception that chapters are tied into the tactics or character of their primogenitor Legion. People seem to flip that on its head and decide the only way to make a pyschological warfare chapter (for instance) is to make them the secret Night Lords offshoot. In fact, if someone is skilled enough to pass traitor geneseed off believeably they are probably skilled enough to get exactly the same effect through conventional means.

 

Of course, it seems to have become an end in itself to design a traitor chapter successfully merely because the guide says not to.

 

So, I geuss I disagree :P But yes, the vast majority of the cases, you can simply have Flesh Tearer or Ultramarine geneseed, and it will suffer much less.

 

Not Flesh Tearer. You'd have to come up with a really convincing reason for the High Lords to use geneseed from such a deviant chapter.

[Ace Debonair]

So....what's the point of using any geneseed other than Ultramarine then? Why use Imperial Fist or White Scar geneseed if the only difference between the chapters is training?

 

Politics, perhaps?

Look at it from the point of view of a High Lord:

 

Even if you and your High Lord amigos go 'hey, the ultramarines are really good and we should make lots of little Ultras', also using the geneseed from the other Legions shows that you actually have some faith in them and think they're worthwhile too.

 

Nobody wants more grumpy First Founding Legions and their kin getting all upset and feeling disrespected, after all.

 

From a writer's point of view, it lets us accent the personality of our Chapters by giving them a Primarch with some similarities (or differences, mayhaps) from our Chapter.

 

Mordray

I remember a chapter... oh yes Ace's Stone Bound. They are white scar's successors but everyone was demanding a fairly extensive explination as to why they weren't obsessed with bikers.

 

That was because they were trained by a White Scars successor who had been trained by the White Scars, not because their geneseed was that of the White Scars. Chapters in 40K often use similar strategies and adopt similar philosophies to their progenitors. This is environment, not heredity.

 

Yeah, the Stonebound are probably a textbook example of how to not do it right.

I'm sure I'll work them out properly one day. :P

 

 

Anyway. My perspective on the traitor geneseed thing is that it's a lot more fun to make Loyalist-geneseed equivalents who behave in the way you want. It saves all the reasoning, hassle, complicated and unlikely explanations and debates that come with such a controversial decision.

 

Although if you absolutely had to do it, I'd say 13th or 21st Founding would be your best friend, and I'd certainly hint that the geneseed had been somewhat tampered with.

 

EDIT:

Of course, it seems to have become an end in itself to design a traitor chapter successfully merely because the guide says not to.

I actually always attributed that to the fact most of the pre-heresy traitor legions were much cooler than the post-heresy traitor legions.

[Walter Payton]

EDIT:

Of course, it seems to have become an end in itself to design a traitor chapter successfully merely because the guide says not to.

I actually always attributed that to the fact most of the pre-heresy traitor legions were much cooler than the post-heresy traitor legions.

 

That too.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

The only two reasons I continue with my own traitor geneseed chapter is because I wanted to realisticly see how a chapter with traitor geneseed would survive, and how it would affect their traditions, heraldry, and things of that nature. The other reason was because I wanted to enhance the the idea of brotherhood between the chapter and another.

 

The uniqueness factor of traitor geneseed is completely overrated. It comes from the perception that chapters are tied into the tactics or character of their primogenitor Legion. People seem to flip that on its head and decide the only way to make a pyschological warfare chapter (for instance) is to make them the secret Night Lords offshoot. In fact, if someone is skilled enough to pass traitor geneseed off believeably they are probably skilled enough to get exactly the same effect through conventional means.

 

Of course, it seems to have become an end in itself to design a traitor chapter successfully merely because the guide says not to.

Um, false :pinch: I made it because I wanted to se how they would react, and how their tactics and heraldry would change based on that reaction, not on who their proginetor was. Indeed, in the discussion about which traitor geneseeed to use I was quite willing to change it because the actual geneseed doesn't matter - the chapter's reaction did.

[Ecritter]

Actually I saw the story as more important.

[Ferrata]

With reference to the Liber Guide, I always like to point out the intention of the Guide is to highlight all the key pot-holes that people fall down when making a chapter. Traitor gene-seed chapters can lead to reasonable chapters, but it does take a large amount of experience of writing chapters and if you are new to the game, it is very easy to lose your chapter down there.

[Valkyrion]

No one seems to have broached this subject yet;

 

The 20 Legions were all created with a specific role in mind.

With the missing legions and the 9 traitors, the imperium has had a 50% reduction in the potential capabilities of it's space marine chapters.

 

I get that environment has more of an effect than geneseed, but the geneseed allows specific training in a more specialised field to stand a greater chance of success.

 

If you have a vacancy in a role in your shop selling washing machines you could get any old bod in off the street and train them, or you could hire someone who already sells washing machines.

My point is that if you want a savagely brutal shock chapter with stable geneseed you could train up a salamanders successor to be that. But if you have access to the World Eaters then why not use them?

[NightrawenII]

If you have a vacancy in a role in your shop selling washing machines you could get any old bod in off the street and train them, or you could hire someone who already sells washing machines.

The crux of the matter is that you don't want someone, who sells washing machines, because the washing machines are just evil and outright wrong.

 

*cough*

 

Joking aside.

The question of traitor gene-seed boils down to simple fact; The 9 Traitor Legions have fallen from the grace.

What was the reason for their fall? The enviroment? Primarchs teachings? Primarchs genetic heritage? Well, Imperium doesn't know, and what is more important it doesn't want to know, and thus the decision is, "It's better safe than sorry." and all the remaining genetic material is held in vault with time-lock.

[Quixus]

The question of traitor gene-seed boils down to simple fact; The 9 Traitor Legions have fallen from the grace.

What was the reason for their fall? The enviroment? Primarchs teachings? Primarchs genetic heritage? Well, Imperium doesn't know, and what is more important it doesn't want to know, and thus the decision is, "It's better safe than sorry." and all the remaining genetic material is held in vault with time-lock.

Why are they stored? To be safe the geneseed could just as well be destroyed. Why don't they do that? Without geneseed no desperate warbands would try to raid the stores.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

Try raid Mars...

 

Maybe because the Emperor said 'seal it until I can deal with it' then he gets wasted and ascends to the Throne...

 

Who has the power to revoke his decisions? No one. Thats my view, so its stasis lock to keep it secure. Oh, and did I mention that its on Mars?

[Quixus]

Try raid Mars...

It's 1000000:1 chance, it just has to work :D

 

Maybe because the Emperor said 'seal it until I can deal with it' then he gets wasted and ascends to the Throne...

 

Who has the power to revoke his decisions? No one. Thats my view, so its stasis lock to keep it secure. Oh, and did I mention that its on Mars?

As far as we know the Emperor also decreed that the SM will neither have Librarians nor use sorcery. We don't know (yet) if he or someone else revoked the first part. Rules and fluff for the 41st millennium tells us that there are indeed librarians in most Space Marine chapters.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

True, Ill admit thats an odd one. but Sorcery is still outlawed (do not quote GK codex fluff. Doesnt count. Its Ward). All we have is librarians.

 

Also, geneseed doesn not dictate the way a Legion works. WS: Bikers, yes, but whats their background? Nomad riders and raiders.

 

DA: Knights who are obsessed with secrecy and quests, a result of geneseed or the Order on Caliban? I think the Order

TS: Ok, genetically modified sorcerors, ill give you that, but is that a result of Prospero and Magnus, or full geneseed?

WE: Implants made them craz...ier than they were.

Geneseed does not make a Chapter 'fill a niche', its the upbringing. What would have happened had the Lion been raised from birth as a human warrior and Knight? Or cruze. Dorn/Peturabo were seige masters yes, but was that all due to genetics? Ill agree, they all had talents, which they passed ontp their 'children' but the upbringing plays a huge role (look at the Ultras, not every successor is a mini Guilliman or calgar

 

Geneseed affetcs the skills of said Marine, but is NOT the only reason for the way they act, unless its linked to mutation.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

(do not quote GK codex fluff. Doesnt count. Its Ward). All we have is librarians.

 

Sadly, bad "canon" is still "canon".

 

Also, geneseed doesn not dictate the way a Legion works.

 

This is the crux of the problem.

 

The original writers only had to say "These Space Marines are great at siege warfare, they are Imperial Fists..." without ever having to really delve into the deep and figure out why - though certain cases are the exception, like Kurze.

[Epistolary Exander]

Try raid Mars...

 

Actually the geneseed is meant to be stored in 2 secret locations, known only to the mechanicum. Keeping a geneseed store on Mars would be of an obvious thing to do & going against the point of keeping it in a secret unassuming location. Storm of Iron is about one of these locations being raided by the Iron Warriors. In it that base to store the geneseed was chosen for it being kept out of the way in a world of value. Its the same kind of logic that the psychic settlers chose Prospero for. So basically if you find out where the Admech keep some of the geneseed you could probably successfully raid the facility with a powerful enough force, Id imagine 2000 marines would be more than sufficient :D.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

... I'd imagine 2000 marines would be more than sufficient.

 

I doubt that, when the Mechanicum can call upon Titans, Skitarii and Tech-Guard.

 

Two thousand seems like a horde, in force terms for the Astartes, but against even a few Warhounds they haven't much to touch the Titans.

[Octavulg]

Warhounds aren't so bad. It's once you start getting into Warlords and Reavers that there are problems. Of course, the Traitors can call on Titan Legions, too.

 

Still. It wouldn't exactly be a pushover.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

Warhounds aren't so bad. It's once you start getting into Warlords and Reavers that there are problems. Of course, the Traitors can call on Titan Legions, too.

 

Still. It wouldn't exactly be a pushover.

 

Warhounds aren't so bad, against even Marine infantry even one would do a good impression of a slaughter.

 

Traitors can call on Titans, yes, but few forces have the pull or logistical capacity to get them on side.

 

Don't forget, also, that however hidden there will be a horrendous amount of defensive firepower - concealed or not.

[Arkangilos]

And a force of 2000 Chaos Marines and enemy Titans would be noticed before it got there. So there are plenty of opertunities for reinforcements.

[Octavulg]

...Why?

 

Chaos forces pop out places they shouldn't all the time. Armageddon springs to mind.

[NightrawenII]

(do not quote GK codex fluff. Doesnt count. Its Ward). All we have is librarians.

 

Sadly, bad "canon" is still "canon".

Loose canon is canon, which can be happily ignored. :devil:

 

And a force of 2000 Chaos Marines and enemy Titans would be noticed before it got there. So there are plenty of opertunities for reinforcements.

Well, considering unpredictability of warp and unreliability of astrotelepathy...

[Walter Payton]

Warhounds aren't so bad. It's once you start getting into Warlords and Reavers that there are problems. Of course, the Traitors can call on Titan Legions, too.

 

Still. It wouldn't exactly be a pushover.

 

Warhounds aren't so bad, against even Marine infantry even one would do a good impression of a slaughter.

 

Traitors can call on Titans, yes, but few forces have the pull or logistical capacity to get them on side.

 

Don't forget, also, that however hidden there will be a horrendous amount of defensive firepower - concealed or not.

 

Further remember that the Imperium is defending something that they cannot use but that Chaos can. In such circumstances our hypothetical attacking Chaos forces would have to be stealthy enough to approach unseen yet strong enough to destroy the Adeptus Mechanicus defenders and strong enough to capture the geneseed before the Imperium engaged failsafes and destroyed it.

[Banelord]

Warhounds aren't so bad. It's once you start getting into Warlords and Reavers that there are problems. Of course, the Traitors can call on Titan Legions, too.

 

Still. It wouldn't exactly be a pushover.

 

 

Don't forget the Imperator Emperor Class Titian :) and if the Legio Ordo Sinister get involved, well they got 12 of them :devil: