Captain/command squad Question

[altair2195]

Have a quick question, is this a good loadout for my captain and his command squad? and what should they rided in?

 

Captain- Relic Blade/storm shield

Command squad- 4x Storm shields

 

Thanks,

Altair

[DarkGuard]

Durable, very durable, with that 3++ save and FnP. However, it's not legal, sorry. You've got 5 storm shields there, which implies you've given the Apothecary one. Unfortunately, the Apothecary cannot take any upgrades, he only gets to decide between a regular close combat weapon and a boltgun to complement his bolt pistol, I find the former to be better.

 

So knock one storm shield off, and it's legal. However, it isn't very killy. 4 relic blade attacks and 16 normal attacks won't do much. I used to use a combat squad with thunder hammer and company champion with relic blade Captain. More power weapons than your unit, but wasn't that killy.

 

If you want to keep it combat, and aren't afraid to splash the points for it, stick a power fist on one, and lightning claws on the others. If you want it to be a little cheaper, consider putting the power fist in on one, possibly with a storm shield, giving one guy either just one lightning claw or company champion, one guy a SS and lightning claw, and the other just a storm shield. Allows you to play wound allocation, you've got plenty of power weapons, and some invulnerable saves there.

 

Of course, the big favourite is the quad-plasma squad, taking four plasma guns on the Vets. Relatively cheap, and FnP mitigates Gets Hot! These guys will take out elite units and MCs easily. I find this to be the better choice, as in terms of combat killing power I find the Honour Guard to be superior, although more fragile.

[altair2195]

Ok, I will take off a storm shield. I was considering giving them lighting claws but I thought that might be too expensive.

 

Edit- still need a transport for them

Thanks Altair

[DarkGuard]

Too expensive? What is too expensive? I'd say Hammernators in a Raider is too expensive. At 465pts+, including a character, then that's a lot of points, over a third if playing 1500pts. The Command squad have the good fortune of being able to ride in a Rhino or Razorback, therefore meaning they can afford the luxury of LC/SS. It comes down to what you want really.

[altair2195]

Ok maybe not too expensive but too many points riding on them.

 

Thanks Altiar

[Koremu]

I never personally found that 4 Storm Shields was worth it; it always seemed better to go with one or two Storm Shields and rely on wound allocation for the rest. You don't often get absolute hails of AP3/deny FNP shots.

[McFisty]

Land Raider all the way! Even in 1500 point games, I say a LR is better than the Rhino or Razorback. AV 11 isn't reliable enough to deliver the uber squad to their destination. I hope my 2 cents worth helps.

 

For The Emperor,

 

McFisty

[DarkGuard]

I never personally found that 4 Storm Shields was worth it; it always seemed better to go with one or two Storm Shields and rely on wound allocation for the rest. You don't often get absolute hails of AP3/deny FNP shots.

 

Just tell that to my quad plasma squad ;).

 

But generally I agree with you, it also saves you 30pts, which is pretty much your Rhino.

 

Speaking of Rhinos...

 

Land Raider all the way! Even in 1500 point games, I say a LR is better than the Rhino or Razorback. AV 11 isn't reliable enough to deliver the uber squad to their destination. I hope my 2 cents worth helps.

 

For The Emperor,

 

McFisty

 

I think you're missing the point here. Yes a Land Raider is better for uber combat units. It's tougher, does more damage in shooting, and has an assault ramp. But then, you might as well take Hammernators every time, which are better for their points cost. The big advantage that Command squads have over Hammernators is being able to be put in a 35pt transport, as opposed to needing a 265pt transport.

 

And in the proper army list, a Rhino will outlast a Land Raider. If I put a Land Raider in my list you can bet every bit of enemy melta or equivalent will single out that Land Raider and it'll die soon, I know that's what I'd do. On the other hand, with a Rhino you can fit more units that provide target saturation, and it's easier to hide. Have you tried hiding a Land Raider behind a Rhino? No because it's hard. You'll probably get a cover save, but you're still getting shot at. Rhinos can hide behind other Rhinos and deny shots, rather than just have a cover save.

 

I use an Honour Squad in Rhino at the moment (yes, I shamelessly copied Idaho). Their Rhino has only been popped once. All other times it's survived. Normally it sits behind my other Rhinos and Vindicator, preventing it from being shot at. If people come close to my midfield formation they get out and counter-charge. If I need to advance more they'll do so behind a unit. I could use a Land Raider, and it'll be fun to do so one day. But then I need to drop other units and it doesn't fit my play style.

 

I'm not saying the Land Raider is bad, or worse than a Rhino, because it's not, it's one of our best tanks. All I'm saying is to give the humble Rhino (or Razorback) a little more respect, especially when it comes to combat unit. They can do the job more than adequately, they just have to be used right.

[Gunslinger87]

That many storm shields (when legal) may make the command squad very survivable, but then what kind of damage are you expecting from them without even a single power weapon etc. You're just making more survivable marines and putting all of the pressure on the captain. Better to have each guy different and with the same point cost be able to allocate wounds and dish out much more of a punch. (a power weapon here, lightning claw there etc) perhaps with one assault weapon? melta, flamer?

[Mysticaria]

The problem with that many storm shields is that the they only help against a few weapons. Storm shield doesn't increase resiliency against bolters, lasgun, devourers, shootas, etc... Against most weapons in the game these guys are going to die because of their 3+ save. I can't see spending so much to get them all storm shields, when the squad can benefit just as much by having only 1 or 2 of them in there.

 

-Myst

[ShinyRhino]

The one situation I can see a lot of stormshields being very useful in is taking down a monstrous creature or walker. One powerfist, three shields, and the mandatory Apothecary allows you to absorb a lot of punishment from MC or walker attacks, while still hammering it in the head with the powerfist.

[facmanpob]

I use:

 

1 Company Champion

1 Vet with PF

1 Vet with SS

1 Vanilla Vet

1 Apothecary

 

riding in a Razorback

 

not too expensive (same as a 10 man Tac Squad with Rhino basically), and good variation for wound allocation. I use it mainly for fluff purposes, but its an OK unit to accompany my Captain. :huh:

[Commander Sasha]

If you want to keep it combat, and aren't afraid to splash the points for it...

PF SS, LC SS, LC, SS, Apoth

Of course, the big favourite is the quad-plasma squad, taking four plasma guns on the Vets. Relatively cheap, and FnP mitigates Gets Hot!

I'm dabbling with a bike command squad, to accompany either my standard bike captain (Relic, SS, Combi-plas), Or Khan.

 

Would you endorse the above load-out, with 4 added plasma guns, but instead on bikers? Relentless Plasma and T5 3++ sounds lovely, if expensive.

 

365, plus 175 for Capt or 205 for Khan.

[DarkGuard]

Quad plasma is always good, but I feel that if you're taking bikes, and therefore the inherent 12" movement of being a bike, you might as well take combat weapons. You've got an 18" charge range from the beginning of the turn, as opposed to having the halt the Razorback and charge 14" out of it. However, plasmas could be fun to do as you stay 24" away using the bike's movement and fire. It comes down to the rest of your army. If you're using bikes everywhere else, then combat. If you've go another combat unit or say another elite shooty unit that's decent in combat (like Sternguard and Tactical Terminators) then plasma could work well.

[facmanpob]

If you want to keep it combat, and aren't afraid to splash the points for it...

PF SS, LC SS, LC, SS, Apoth

Of course, the big favourite is the quad-plasma squad, taking four plasma guns on the Vets. Relatively cheap, and FnP mitigates Gets Hot!

I'm dabbling with a bike command squad, to accompany either my standard bike captain (Relic, SS, Combi-plas), Or Khan.

 

Would you endorse the above load-out, with 4 added plasma guns, but instead on bikers? Relentless Plasma and T5 3++ sounds lovely, if expensive.

 

365, plus 175 for Capt or 205 for Khan.

I worked it out as 265 for Command squad, bikes and plasma. 365 would add in 3 storm shields, 2 LC and a PF - not sure why you'd want to do that though? :)

 

Also, the Captain you mentioned above - relic blade, storm shield and combi plas isn't possible I don't think. Looking at the codex it says that the Captain has to replace bolt pistol and/or chainsword to get each of those options, so he could only get 2 of them before he ran out of things to swap. the command squad is different as they can add in a storm shield without swapping anything. That's how I read the entry anyway :)

[Koremu]

I wrote this about Biker Command Squads 2 years ago. It's still true;

 

 

There are two real divisions in how you look to set up a Command Squad - they can be broadly characterised as "Cataphract" and "Heavy Dragoon". The former exploits the Heavy-Cavalry-esque traits of the Command Squad - the availability of Storm Shields, the presence of Feel No Pain, and wielding Power Weapons - to form a hard hitting strike unit to act as a primary strike force on the battlefield. Doing this requires a hefy investment of points.

 

Heavy Dragoon setups meanwhile exploit the ability of the Command Squad to pack multiples of the same special weapon. This is generally the cheaper of the two Biker Command Squad setups, but is not by any means weak, as it is able to apply a devastating amount of firepower onto a wide area of the table at will. However, it does rely on either the Captain or a "Defender" Veteran to provide for and protect against enemy assaults.

 

It is possible to do both of the above in a single unit - there's nothing stopping you from arming all four veterans with Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield and Plasma Gun as well as a bike if you want - but it will generally be prohibitatively expensive (445 points, not including the Captain, for the above mentioned 5 man squad). Once you are at the point where you can buy 5 Assault Terminators *and* a Land Raider for the points cost, you might want to rethink your cunning plan.

[Hyaenidae]

Sorry for jumping in mid-discussion, but I have a few questions to those who've ran the SS/PW command squads in the past, as I'm thinking of building one. Do you perfer a Rhino, or a Razorback? And how well has this type of close quarters unit survived that first round of pounding gunfire when you first disembark, having little to no counter-fire itself? Perfered targets? Any other tidbits 'tactic-wise' from personal experience would be appreciated too, please. Thanks in advance.

 

 

Edit: Also, if a razorback is perfered, what weapon loadout is optimal?

[DarkGuard]

I don't really think it matters much between the Razorback and Rhino, if you're keeping the Razorback cheap it's only a 5pts difference, or the same if you use dozer blades on your Rhino. The top hatch doesn't matter much here, as you're not a shooty unit, and the heavy bolter on the Razorback can make a better impact than the storm bolter on the Rhino, although it will get the Razorback noticed more. I'm pretty sure though that if your opponent can only see the gun of a vehicle he can't shoot at it, and as the gun is higher than a Rhino you can hide a Razorback like that.

 

As for shooting casualties while you sit around after disembarking after moving your vehicle, I get precisely none. Because I don't get them out after moving the tank. You can still assault out of any vehicle provided it hasn't moved. So you move the Rhino to the desired location, keep your guys inside, safe. Next turn, disembark 2", move 6", and then charge 6" into assault, 14" charge, and your unit hasn't taken any casualties. Golden.

 

EDIT: Razorback preference is up to you. Heavy bolter is low key, while las/plas and assault cannon will see more shots being fired at them. The assault cannon in particular is king of midfield, and can be good if you're using the Command squad to protect midfield units. If you're just moving forward to your opponent's side of the field, then a Rhino would be better, or heavy bolter as you're not paying points for it. Heavy flamer could be interesting in this situation as you'll be in his backfield anyway.

[Hyaenidae]

I don't really think it matters much between the Razorback and Rhino, if you're keeping the Razorback cheap it's only a 5pts difference, or the same if you use dozer blades on your Rhino. The top hatch doesn't matter much here, as you're not a shooty unit, and the heavy bolter on the Razorback can make a better impact than the storm bolter on the Rhino, although it will get the Razorback noticed more. I'm pretty sure though that if your opponent can only see the gun of a vehicle he can't shoot at it, and as the gun is higher than a Rhino you can hide a Razorback like that.

 

Thank you, good sir. I already have two other Razors in the works for my Sternguard, a third might be able to blend in the field. Probably go with the Razor, then.

 

As for shooting casualties while you sit around after disembarking after moving your vehicle, I get precisely none. Because I don't get them out after moving the tank. You can still assault out of any vehicle provided it hasn't moved. So you move the Rhino to the desired location, keep your guys inside, safe. Next turn, disembark 2", move 6", and then charge 6" into assault, 14" charge, and your unit hasn't taken any casualties. Golden.

 

*headslap* Wow, I think I need another cup of coffee, lol. Simple, but effective...thanks!

 

EDIT: Razorback preference is up to you. Heavy bolter is low key, while las/plas and assault cannon will see more shots being fired at them. The assault cannon in particular is king of midfield, and can be good if you're using the Command squad to protect midfield units. If you're just moving forward to your opponent's side of the field, then a Rhino would be better, or heavy bolter as you're not paying points for it. Heavy flamer could be interesting in this situation as you'll be in his backfield anyway.

 

Again, the Sternguard Razors were gonna have Hvy Bolters, so probably go with the same so I can hide in plain sight. The Hvy Flamer option is reeeaaaaaly tempting though, lol. Thanks for all your help.

[War Angel]

what mode of transportation is best for quad plasma squad?

[TyrionTheImp]

I'd go with the Rhino, the hatch lets you fire out 4 shots at 12" from the safety of its hull while still moving 6" if you wanted to. Razorback restricts that, but adds extra firepower and makes it more of a target, unless you're razor spamming.

[War Angel]

i thought only two models can fire out of the hatch. what about a drop pod? direct access to high points meq

[TyrionTheImp]

4 Shots = 2 models double tapping.

 

Drop Pods are a one hit deal, so after you get out then what? You kill maybe one unit (most people are smart about their deployment to avoid that even) and get shot up. Also, most people play mech, so you'll be shooting at transports most likely, not actual targets, which S7 can probably blow up, but again, then what? You die.

[DarkGuard]

The other transport is of course the Razorback, in particular the las/plas Razorback. I find you'll almost always fully disembark the quad plasma squad in order to get all their shots in at that elite unit that has to die. If using a las/plas Razorback, in particular one that hasn't moved more than 6", you can add another couple of plasma gun shots that don't overheat and are twin-linked. If you're using a Captain with combi-plasma, then you could get 12 shots in a turn, that Hammernator squad is in trouble.

[TyrionTheImp]

If you're using a Captain with combi-plasma, then you could get 12 shots in a turn, that Hammernator squad is in trouble.

 

Not as much trouble as you when those Hammernators charge you next turn. ;) 12 plasma shots won't cut it against them.