Vibro Cannon

[Thantoes]

Just want to get some opinions. Played Eldar yesterday who had some support weapons armed with Vibro Cannons.

 

One of the rules for it states

"Any unit which the line passes through suffers D6 hits - C:Eldar pg 45"

 

Does this effect his own units if shooting through them as he had was firing through a squad of wraith guard and 2 wraith lords?

 

I ask as it doesnt specify "Enemy" units.

[JasoX]

if that is how the wording goes - i say yes, it will hit everything in the line.

[SeattleDV8]

Eldar FAQ

Q. Can vibro cannons affect targets out of line of

sight? Friendly units? Units locked in combat?

A. Yes, they are rather indiscriminate weapons.

[Leonaides]

Which also meas that they cant shoot you if they would have had to fire through their own troops. that caught out my local Eldar bud the first time he used a Vibro-cannon battery. The second time he put it on his front line and it got pasted first turn. He has yet to use it again in anything other than apoc.

[Hellios]

Which also meas that they cant shoot you if they would have had to fire through their own troops. that caught out my local Eldar bud the first time he used a Vibro-cannon battery. The second time he put it on his front line and it got pasted first turn. He has yet to use it again in anything other than apoc.

 

Vibro-cannons are great in Cities of Death or when the board is so full of terrain you can't see anything... Otherwise they suck like the other support platforms.

[Captain Idaho]

Which also meas that they cant shoot you if they would have had to fire through their own troops. that caught out my local Eldar bud the first time he used a Vibro-cannon battery. The second time he put it on his front line and it got pasted first turn. He has yet to use it again in anything other than apoc.

 

Hold on a moment? Why would they be able to hit their own models if they are unable to fire if they will hit said troops? The rules clearly state the Vibro Cannon doesn't need to pick a target, so it is like the FAQ says; an indiscriminate weapon. It targets areas of the board in a straight line, affecting anything under that line.

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

Which also meas that they cant shoot you if they would have had to fire through their own troops. that caught out my local Eldar bud the first time he used a Vibro-cannon battery. The second time he put it on his front line and it got pasted first turn. He has yet to use it again in anything other than apoc.

Oh, they can. Nominate a direction, extend a straight line 36 inches, everything under that line is hit. Everything. Friend or foe alike, close combat, in cover or in the open.

[Leonaides]

the point being that because it would hit everything along the line, it cannot fire along that line if there is an eldar model under the line. You cannot shoot a weapon at a target if it would hit your own troops - like blast weapons, or flamers even. Scattering onto your own troops is one thing, but deliberately firing upon them is not allowed.

[dswanick]

the point being that because it would hit everything along the line, it cannot fire along that line if there is an eldar model under the line. You cannot shoot a weapon at a target if it would hit your own troops - like blast weapons, or flamers even. Scattering onto your own troops is one thing, but deliberately firing upon them is not allowed.

Except by RaW, the prohibition on targeting your own troops with a shot is not a general rule. It is a specific rule for Blast and Template weapons, unless the Vibcannon has a similar prohibition?

[Leonaides]

is it specific to them, or just written in that section because thats generally the only time its relevant? A flamer for example hits every target, friend or foe between the firer and its max range in whatever direction you fire it. I seem to recall similar psychic powers that are everything along a line- a warlock power maybe?- that is the same...

[dswanick]

is it specific to them, or just written in that section because thats generally the only time its relevant? A flamer for example hits every target, friend or foe between the firer and its max range in whatever direction you fire it. I seem to recall similar psychic powers that are everything along a line- a warlock power maybe?- that is the same...

The prohibition on targeting your own troops is written in the Template section of the BRB, Pg.29 and Blast section, Pg.30. So unless the Vibcannon rule has a similar prohibition then I am unaware of any general rule preventing you from targeting your own troops and thus firing it through a friendly unit.

[Leonaides]

and the rules for armour saves are written in the shooting section- does that mean there are no rules for how to take a save against a dt test, or a cc wound. I overexagerate, but i hope understandably. The rule is there because ordinarily, those 2 attacks would be the only times you could hit your own troops with a shot.

[dswanick]

and the rules for armour saves are written in the shooting section- does that mean there are no rules for how to take a save against a dt test, or a cc wound. I overexagerate, but i hope understandably. The rule is there because ordinarily, those 2 attacks would be the only times you could hit your own troops with a shot.

Both DT and CC refer you to the shooting section for the rules on taking Saves, does the Vibcannon refer you to the "no targeting friendlies" rule in the Blast or Template section of the rules?

 

But if your logic were to hold true, psychic shooting attacks like Jaws of the World Wolf and Blood Lance wouldn't be allowed to be used if any part of their effect targeted friendlies, and yet the rules FAQs imply otherwise.

[Leonaides]

absolutely. But both of them state that they dont affect friendlies. So the problem doesnt exist. If however, they did affect friendlies then you couldn't fire them on a line that would hit friendly models.

[dswanick]

absolutely. But both of them state that they dont affect friendlies. So the problem doesnt exist. If however, they did affect friendlies then you couldn't fire them on a line that would hit friendly models.

Actually Blood Lance specifies "enemy units", but Jaws doesn't - it can hit friendly models.

[Leonaides]

My bad - havent had to think about JotWW for a while... But yes, in that case if there was afriendly model between the Rune Priest and the specific model he targets then I'd say thats an illegal target selection.

[BOBMAKENZIE]

Are we all ignoring the fact that the FAQ specifically states that you may first it through friendlies?

[Leonaides]

And wehre does it say that? I've just been reading thru the Eldar FAQ/Errata and I cant see that. It does say that it affects any eldar under its path, but that could just be to indicate that unlike a Blood Lance, friendly models affect where you can draw the line.

[ShinyRhino]

The FAQ clearly states that the Vibro Cannon can affect friendly units. Since the cannon isn't a blast or template weapon, you're free to target an enemy unit that has a friendly unit standing between it and the cannon. You're not targeting the friendly unit, you're targeting the enemy unit. Hits on the friendly unit are a side effect of targeting the enemy.

[Captain Idaho]

You don't even target an enemy unit. You roll to hit for each Vibro Cannon, if even a single one hits you get to a draw a line from a single Vibro Cannon a full 36" in any direction and affecting any unit that falls under the line.

 

It even specifies you do not need to pick a target. So as you aren't picking a target it isn't even an issue whether you can target a friendly unit.

 

And like the FAQ says; you can affect friendly units. If you can affect your own units, you clearly can fire it if you do hit your own units too.

[Leonaides]

Still doesnt actually say that you can fire it like that - it just means that if you were to target that particular model, any friendly model between the two would be affected. Blast weapons affect any model touched by the template - friend or foe - you still cant target that enemmy model if it would also hit a friend.

 

If JotWW is the same mechanic as a vibro cannon, then does this have any relevance?

 

A. As a psychic shooting attack, Jaws of the World Wolf

requires line of sight. The Rune Priest must have line of

sight to the first model that the power affects – in effect he

is treated as the target model; the power just happens to

hit everybody else on its way through!

 

So if your eldar model is the first one hit then its an illegal target.

 

Unlike blood lance, wehre it specifically states that friendly models are not affected.

[ShinyRhino]

Still doesnt actually say that you can fire it like that - it just means that if you were to target that particular model, any friendly model between the two would be affected. Blast weapons affect any model touched by the template - friend or foe - you still cant target that enemmy model if it would also hit a friend.

 

If JotWW is the same mechanic as a vibro cannon, then does this have any relevance?

 

A. As a psychic shooting attack, Jaws of the World Wolf

requires line of sight. The Rune Priest must have line of

sight to the first model that the power affects – in effect he

is treated as the target model; the power just happens to

hit everybody else on its way through!

 

So if your eldar model is the first one hit then its an illegal target.

 

Unlike blood lance, wehre it specifically states that friendly models are not affected.

 

Using Idaho's clarification, no, the quote has no relevance. Apparently, Vibrocannons don't target anything at all, they're just a line effect in any direction.

[dswanick]

Using Idaho's clarification, no, the quote has no relevance. Apparently, Vibrocannons don't target anything at all, they're just a line effect in any direction.

Exactly. Blast and Template weapons prohibit firing the weapon if the marker will cover a friendly model. Blood Lance has no prohibition, perhaps because it specifically doesn't affect friendlies. Jaws and Lance have been FAQed that the first model affected is treated as if it were the target for purposes such as declaring a charge, but don't specifically prohibit targeting friendlies like Blast and Template weapons. But Jaws and Vibcannons can indisciminately hit friendlies and have no prohibition against doing so. The fact that they are FAQd to verify that they can affect friendlies indicates to me that they can be fired even if they will affect friendlies. Such are the dangers of using these attacks.

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

Codex: Eldar, page 45:

When firing a vibro cannon battery, roll to his (the firer does not need to pick a target). If any of the vibro cannons hit, draw a single 36" line from one vibro cannon in any direction. Any unit which the line passes through suffers D6 hits.

 

Codex: Eldar FAQ:

Q: Can vibro cannons affect targets out of line of sight? Friendly units? Units locked in combat?

A: Yes, they are rather indiscriminate weapons.

 

It's rather cut and dry. Vibro cannons can shoot through (and will hit) friendly units and everything else in a straight line, ignoring any and all terrain.

[Leonaides]

Really? Hmmm that must make them a remarkably unique weapon then. Cant think of any other weapons that function that way.

However, it appears that I'm wrong. Thank-you Idaho and Ezra for providing relevant quotes.