dreadknight question

[nurglez]

I just take it to be a MC that can move like jump infantry, like how every other MC who gets wings does. keeps things simples and makes sense :lol:

[Daedalus Templarius]

Yea, makes sense. The cost is about on par with wings for Daemon Prince and Hive Tyrant.

[number6]

There is no rule that says Jump Infantry takes away Monstrous Creature status. You can be both. Look at winged Hive Tyrants, Daemon Princes, Bloodthirsters, etc.

There are no units in the game that qualify under two different unit types. All units belong to one and only one unit type. This includes all your examples. None of them take on Jump Infantry status, they only take on the movement rules associated with Jump Infantry units. Hive Tyrants, Daemon Princes, Bloodthirsters, and any other Monstrous Creatures that take Wings (or similar kit that allows them to move as Jump Infantry) remain Monstrous Creatures only.

[Brother Valerius]

Honestly, the MC/JI argument is mainly intended to be a kind of reductio ad absurdum in response to the overly strict interpretation of the personal teleporter rule. If someone wants to go down that road, then I say the dual statements, neither of which states to be a replacement of the other, of the unit being an MC and the unit being JI constitutes explicit permission to be both.

 

It's kind of pointless, though, as I think Grey Mage is right in his realization that a truly strict reading of the rules precludes the teleporter from working on the NDK at all. Not to mention that most players will happily allow you to play with the intended version of the rules.

[Angelis Mortis]

There is no rule that says Jump Infantry takes away Monstrous Creature status. You can be both. Look at winged Hive Tyrants, Daemon Princes, Bloodthirsters, etc.

There are no units in the game that qualify under two different unit types. All units belong to one and only one unit type. This includes all your examples. None of them take on Jump Infantry status, they only take on the movement rules associated with Jump Infantry units. Hive Tyrants, Daemon Princes, Bloodthirsters, and any other Monstrous Creatures that take Wings (or similar kit that allows them to move as Jump Infantry) remain Monstrous Creatures only.

 

Where in the rules does it say a unit can not have two types?

[number6]

There is no rule that says Jump Infantry takes away Monstrous Creature status. You can be both. Look at winged Hive Tyrants, Daemon Princes, Bloodthirsters, etc.

There are no units in the game that qualify under two different unit types. All units belong to one and only one unit type. This includes all your examples. None of them take on Jump Infantry status, they only take on the movement rules associated with Jump Infantry units. Hive Tyrants, Daemon Princes, Bloodthirsters, and any other Monstrous Creatures that take Wings (or similar kit that allows them to move as Jump Infantry) remain Monstrous Creatures only.

 

Where in the rules does it say a unit can not have two types?

I never said the rules prohibit it. I said that there aren't any units with dual citizenship in the game. I don't believe that GW intends for a DK with a teleporter to be the very first of its kind. I don't find any argument that claims that GW really does intend for the DK to qualify as two distinct unit types to be compelling. As implied by Brother Valierus's post just above, asserting this already requires a selectively "strict" reading of the RAW as it is. Ridiculous. Just play the game as the rules are clearly intended to be played.

[veidin]

If you field a Dreadknight with a teleporter and someone states it loses it's MC status, just smile and toss it in a Storm Raven. :D

[Gentlemanloser]

Where in the rules does it say a unit can not have two types?

 

Where it explains how a single mini that's Infantry/Artillery works.

 

Stated to death in the other threads, *if* you can be more than one unit type, you break 40k. It no longer works. You're then playing a different game, where you can well, go nuts and do whatever you want.

 

You're no longer playing the same game as me, and everyone else anyway by then.

 

A MC/JI mini can't work in game. It's rules are at odds with each other.

[Angelis Mortis]

Where in the rules does it say a unit can not have two types?

 

Where it explains how a single mini that's Infantry/Artillery works.

 

Stated to death in the other threads, *if* you can be more than one unit type, you break 40k. It no longer works. You're then playing a different game, where you can well, go nuts and do whatever you want.

 

You're no longer playing the same game as me, and everyone else anyway by then.

 

A MC/JI mini can't work in game. It's rules are at odds with each other.

 

Strange, I don't see that anywhere under where you pointed out. Nor do I see how that "breaks" 40k as a game. As a matter of fact, I've seen it pointed out numerous times where there are MCs(Greater Daemons, Winged Hive Tyrants, Daemon Princes, etc...) that behave as Jump Infantry and believe it or not, the 40k universe didn't come to an end. Onus is still on you to point where it says a unit cannot have two types.

[number6]

As a matter of fact, I've seen it pointed out numerous times where there are MCs(Greater Daemons, Winged Hive Tyrants, Daemon Princes, etc...) that behave as Jump Infantry and believe it or not, the 40k universe didn't come to an end. Onus is still on you to point where it says a unit cannot have two types.

Firstly, "behave as Jump Infantry" is not what you're arguing. You are -- or were, at least -- arguing that your examples were of Monstrous Creatures that are also Jump Infantry. As I pointed out earlier, they aren't. The rules in all your examples clearly state that the units in question only gain most of the rules associated with Jump Infantry status. They don't actually become Jump Infantry.

 

However, I'll indulge you for a moment. OK, so a DK with a teleporter is simultaneously Jump Infantry AND Monstrous Creature. Now you can put it in a Stormraven, right, because it can transport Jump Infantry. I assume the DK takes up 1 slot then? Or ... wait. How many slots in a transport does a Monstrous Creature take up? Do we count it as Jump Infantry only when on the table? Does it count as a Monstrous Creature only when attacking vehicles or we want to embark it on a Stormraven? What about cover? Can it take cover like a Jump Infantry model, or does it's Monstrous Creature status prevent that from happening?

 

Show me the rules that describe how to resolve this situation and then we can debate your point. Outside of that, yes, 40K "breaks" because RAW is no help to us. And therefore, you can't assert that a DK with a teleporter can be two unit types at once.

[Gentlemanloser]

Yes!

 

*Behave* (or 'move like').

 

No become JI.

 

It's a subtle difference. ;)

 

My point stands. Until you can explain how a mixed unit single mini works (like an Infantry/Atillery mini), then combining unit types fundamentally breaks 40k.

 

But, I've posted all this before. And we might not want to rehash it! :P

 

However, I'll indulge you for a moment. OK, so a DK with a teleporter is simultaneously Jump Infantry AND Monstrous Creature. Now you can put it in a Stormraven, right, because it can transport Jump Infantry. I assume the DK takes up 1 slot then? Or ... wait. How many slots in a transport does a Monstrous Creature take up? Do we count it as Jump Infantry only when on the table? Does it count as a Monstrous Creature only when attacking vehicles or we want to embark it on a Stormraven? What about cover? Can it take cover like a Jump Infantry model, or does it's Monstrous Creature status prevent that from happening?

 

How far can it move? Got to move at the slowest spead right? And a MC can only move 6".

 

How many dice do you roll for DT tests? When do you take Dangerous terrain tests?

 

JI don't get the extra d6 AP dice, so how many dice does a JI/MC roll to penetrate?

 

And on, and on.

 

The rule sets are utterly mutually exclusive, and can not combine without extensive houserulling.

[Angelis Mortis]

As a matter of fact, I've seen it pointed out numerous times where there are MCs(Greater Daemons, Winged Hive Tyrants, Daemon Princes, etc...) that behave as Jump Infantry and believe it or not, the 40k universe didn't come to an end. Onus is still on you to point where it says a unit cannot have two types.

Firstly, "behave as Jump Infantry" is not what you're arguing. You are -- or were, at least -- arguing that your examples were of Monstrous Creatures that are also Jump Infantry. As I pointed out earlier, they aren't. The rules in all your examples clearly state that the units in question only gain most of the rules associated with Jump Infantry status. They don't actually become Jump Infantry.

 

However, I'll indulge you for a moment. OK, so a DK with a teleporter is simultaneously Jump Infantry AND Monstrous Creature. Now you can put it in a Stormraven, right, because it can transport Jump Infantry. I assume the DK takes up 1 slot then? Or ... wait. How many slots in a transport does a Monstrous Creature take up? Do we count it as Jump Infantry only when on the table? Does it count as a Monstrous Creature only when attacking vehicles or we want to embark it on a Stormraven? What about cover? Can it take cover like a Jump Infantry model, or does it's Monstrous Creature status prevent that from happening?

 

Show me the rules that describe how to resolve this situation and then we can debate your point. Outside of that, yes, 40K "breaks" because RAW is no help to us. And therefore, you can't assert that a DK with a teleporter can be two unit types at once.

 

The point I was making is very clear. Nowhere does it say you can't be both. Nowhere does it say you must be one. I would agree it that it indeed looks as though you should only be one, however, my point is no less of a RAW that people who are being facetious and saying that because a DK takes the teleporter it somehow shrinks in size to no longer be a MC. We all understand that units are supposed to have one type, in exactly the same way we understand they meant for the DK to be a MC that can behave as Jump Infantry. Its foolish to even make such a claim as "oh it lose MC status". Its even more so, when examples such as I gave of MCs that behave like Jump Infantry already exist and did not "end the 40k universe" as a game.

[number6]

The point I was making is very clear. Nowhere does it say you can't be both. Nowhere does it say you must be one. I would agree it that it indeed looks as though you should only be one, however, my point is no less of a RAW that people who are being facetious and saying that because a DK takes the teleporter it somehow shrinks in size to no longer be a MC. We all understand that units are supposed to have one type, in exactly the same way we understand they meant for the DK to be a MC that can behave as Jump Infantry. Its foolish to even make such a claim as "oh it lose MC status". Its even more so, when examples such as I gave of MCs that behave like Jump Infantry already exist and did not "end the 40k universe" as a game.

You're trying to have your cake and eat it, too.

 

Are you arguing that Teleporter DKs actually ARE Jump Infantry AND Monstrous Creatures? Because if you are, you keep finding ways to avoid the challenge laid out to you: Tell me how/whether you can load it into a Stormraven. Tell me how/whether it takes cover. Quote the exact rules that tell us how to resolve the situation since you are trying to support your own position as "the RAW". If it's the RAW, prove it.

 

Or are you arguing that Teleporter DKs only BEHAVE like Jump Infantry. In which case, EVERYBODY AGREES WITH YOU! :) :lol:

[Inquisitor Fox]

Another question; Can you take two 'weapons' and a close combat weapon?

The codex suggests you can, but the latest missive on GW website would suggest not

 

The question I have for you is, why would you? It would be crazy expensive.

Cause it looks cool of course. Thats the only reason to waste your money on toy soldiers.

 

I never leave home without my gatling-incinerator-greatsword dreadknight. Hé is pure awesome :P

It also allows you to maximize the benefit of getting to fire two weapons on the move that being a MC brings. In addition it allows you potentially two template weapons on the same model, which being as we otherwise have little to no template weapons to deal with larger hordes or cover situations, is well... good :D The pennies in a bucket that going up to the greatsword is at that point is totally worth it as it allows your firepower toting model to tangle with big scary things if need be after blowing away swathes of troops.

[Gentlemanloser]

Or are you arguing that Teleporter DKs only BEHAVE like Jump Infantry. In which case, EVERYBODY AGREES WITH YOU!

 

Not quite everyone. ;)

 

While I agree that's how it *should* work (and it's how I and my group will play it), it's not actually how it does currently. Unfortuneatly.

 

Currently, the RAW (if you don't follow the PT for Interceptors only, and there's a strong case against that) is that if a NDK takes a PT it becomes JI. Much like the other wargear changes to unit types (Jump Packs, Bikes, etc), you change from MC to JI. (Unles you also want to open the can of worms that Marines with bikes are both Infantry and Bikes at the same time, which again doesn't work...)

 

Silly. As it leads to things like NDKs in Stromravens.

 

But that is currently the RAW.

 

Hopefully it's FAQed.

 

But until then...

 

It also allows you to maximize the benefit of getting to fire two weapons on the move that being a MC brings.

 

If only it still had Holocaust. Or another Psychic shooting attack :D

 

The point I was making is very clear. Nowhere does it say you can't be both. Nowhere does it say you must be one. I would agree it that it indeed looks as though you should only be one, however, my point is no less of a RAW that people who are being facetious and saying that because a DK takes the teleporter it somehow shrinks in size to no longer be a MC.

 

So you agree that Marine Command Squads who have bought Bikes can be deployed in thier Drop Prod transport?

 

The whole point is *no* unit can be of more than one unit type, as the game stops working when you try it.

 

The only way 40k continues to work is if units are of a single unit type, and change from one ot the other when manipulated by wargear.

[Brother Valerius]

There we disagree, Gentlemanloser (as you know). If we disregard, for the sake of argument, the bit about personal teleporters being for Interceptor squads only, then the RAW is that the dreadknight is both an MC and JI simultaneously. Yes, it breaks the game. No, there's no way to resolve it within the framework of RAW. Nonetheless, it is the RAW. Nothing about the meaning of "rules as written" means that you ignore them if they break the game. Game-breaking or not, they are the rules as written.

 

And if we are going to throw out the RAW because it breaks the game, then there's no ground to argue that the dreadknight is ever JI in the first place, because then we're really playing by RAI, not RAW.

[Angelis Mortis]

So you agree that Marine Command Squads who have bought Bikes can be deployed in thier Drop Prod transport?

 

The whole point is *no* unit can be of more than one unit type, as the game stops working when you try it.

 

The only way 40k continues to work is if units are of a single unit type, and change from one ot the other when manipulated by wargear.

 

Did I say anything about Marine Command Squads and Bikes anywhere? I don't believe I did. You once again missed my point, even after I said "this is my point". I'll say it one more time in another way. Your RAW interpretation is obviously wrong. Without a doubt it is a wrong interpretation. Nobody doubts that, not even people who are arguing for the RAW interpretation. They know its wrong too. Everyone who has read knows that it meant to allow the DK to be a MC and move as Jump Infantry. Running around saying "RAW says no! RAW says no!" when the correct rule interpretation is clearly obvious is just being argumentative and a waste of everyones time.

[Crynn]

As a matter of fact, I've seen it pointed out numerous times where there are MCs(Greater Daemons, Winged Hive Tyrants, Daemon Princes, etc...) that behave as Jump Infantry and believe it or not, the 40k universe didn't come to an end. Onus is still on you to point where it says a unit cannot have two types.

Firstly, "behave as Jump Infantry" is not what you're arguing. You are -- or were, at least -- arguing that your examples were of Monstrous Creatures that are also Jump Infantry. As I pointed out earlier, they aren't. The rules in all your examples clearly state that the units in question only gain most of the rules associated with Jump Infantry status. They don't actually become Jump Infantry.

 

However, I'll indulge you for a moment. OK, so a DK with a teleporter is simultaneously Jump Infantry AND Monstrous Creature. Now you can put it in a Stormraven, right, because it can transport Jump Infantry. I assume the DK takes up 1 slot then? Or ... wait. How many slots in a transport does a Monstrous Creature take up? Do we count it as Jump Infantry only when on the table? Does it count as a Monstrous Creature only when attacking vehicles or we want to embark it on a Stormraven? What about cover? Can it take cover like a Jump Infantry model, or does it's Monstrous Creature status prevent that from happening?

 

Show me the rules that describe how to resolve this situation and then we can debate your point. Outside of that, yes, 40K "breaks" because RAW is no help to us. And therefore, you can't assert that a DK with a teleporter can be two unit types at once.

 

The point I was making is very clear. Nowhere does it say you can't be both. Nowhere does it say you must be one. I would agree it that it indeed looks as though you should only be one, however, my point is no less of a RAW that people who are being facetious and saying that because a DK takes the teleporter it somehow shrinks in size to no longer be a MC. We all understand that units are supposed to have one type, in exactly the same way we understand they meant for the DK to be a MC that can behave as Jump Infantry. Its foolish to even make such a claim as "oh it lose MC status". Its even more so, when examples such as I gave of MCs that behave like Jump Infantry already exist and did not "end the 40k universe" as a game.

 

 

I completely agree. No where in the rules does it state that you cannot be two unit types so whether it works or not we are left at the fact that BY RAW we have a unit that is both. The rules don't go together well however they can work with a bit of common sense. Now to be honest I play strictly by RAW to avoid these kinds of debates on what people think the rules should be by RAI or what their own opinion are however, this is RAW and we are at the point of having to use RAI because there is no other way. I will always favor RAW but this is the RAW, it is both unit types and we have to make do.

 

On a side note. The dread knight is fitted with dreadnaught close combat weapons which are power weapons that double the strength of the user IF IT IS A WALKER. Hence by RAW the dreadknight is str 6, if you want it at str 10, buy the 10 point hammer. I'm sure they will FAQ this though, but then again I thoughted they'd FAQ many obvious so called errors in other codecies which were left un fixed.

 

So play nice guys, flying monsterous creature, it isn't breaking 40k.

 

Regards,

 

Crynn

[jeffersonian000]

It’s not like the Dreadknight is the first Monstrous Creature in 40K that acts like Jump Infantry. There is precedence in other codexes.

 

SJ

[Gentlemanloser]

There we disagree, Gentlemanloser (as you know). If we disregard, for the sake of argument, the bit about personal teleporters being for Interceptor squads only, then the RAW is that the dreadknight is both an MC and JI simultaneously. Yes, it breaks the game. No, there's no way to resolve it within the framework of RAW. Nonetheless, it is the RAW. Nothing about the meaning of "rules as written" means that you ignore them if they break the game. Game-breaking or not, they are the rules as written.

 

And if we are going to throw out the RAW because it breaks the game, then there's no ground to argue that the dreadknight is ever JI in the first place, because then we're really playing by RAI, not RAW.

 

The RAW doesn't exists. As noted, there's no RAW to say you change Unit type, or you're only ever one unit type.

 

And no RAW to say you're both.

 

As such, we have to look at how 40k functions in the absence of RAW direction here.

 

If we take the stance that you can be more than one unit type, the game breaks. If you take the stance that you change unit types, the game doesn't.

 

Obviously, we can't hold the stance that breaks the game as actual RAW. Otherwise we're no longer playing 40k. :)

 

Did I say anything about Marine Command Squads and Bikes anywhere? I don't believe I did. You once again missed my point, even after I said "this is my point". I'll say it one more time in another way. Your RAW interpretation is obviously wrong. Without a doubt it is a wrong interpretation. Nobody doubts that, not even people who are arguing for the RAW interpretation. They know its wrong too. Everyone who has read knows that it meant to allow the DK to be a MC and move as Jump Infantry. Running around saying "RAW says no! RAW says no!" when the correct rule interpretation is clearly obvious is just being argumentative and a waste of everyones time.

 

It's really not.

 

RAW is RAW. It's how we discuss and play the game with those we haven't arranged houserules with.

 

My group happily houserules to all the NDK to move like JI without becoming JI.

 

But that's all it is. A houserule. (And I've stated as much every time this discussion comes up)

 

As for the commnad suqads, it's an exmaple of how you can't be of two unit types at the same time. The same problme you get by having a NDK as both MC and JI at the same time.

 

If you allow that, then you allow marines who have purchased bikes in Rhinos and Drop Pods alongside.

 

completely agree. No where in the rules does it state that you cannot be two unit types so whether it works or not we are left at the fact that BY RAW we have a unit that is both. The rules don't go together well however they can work with a bit of common sense. Now to be honest I play strictly by RAW to avoid these kinds of debates on what people think the rules should be by RAI or what their own opinion are however, this is RAW and we are at the point of having to use RAI because there is no other way. I will always favor RAW but this is the RAW, it is both unit types and we have to make do.

 

There's no RAW either way.

 

the options are;

 

1) Mixed unti type. Break the game and have to houserule.

2) Change unit type. Games works fine as is, no need to houserule.

 

Granted, *both* options aren't the best thing for the game, as 2) allows SR embarked NDKs with 1d6 AP.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

How about a daemon prince with wings? Same sort of thing as far as I'm concerned here.

 

G :)

[Fenric]

Never mind this figured it out now.

[Gentlemanloser]

How about a daemon prince with wings? Same sort of thing as far as I'm concerned here.

 

Moves *like* JI.

 

Not *becomes* JI.

[KnowThyEnemy]

There's no RAW either way.

the options are;

 

1) Mixed unti type. Break the game and have to houserule.

2) Change unit type. Games works fine as is, no need to houserule.

 

Granted, *both* options aren't the best thing for the game, as 2) allows SR embarked NDKs with 1d6 AP

 

Interesting statement here, Gentleman. If there is no correct RAW for this argument, why do you insist on there are only 2 ways to INTERPRET this rule B). you've missed out on the 3rd option, which is clearly the most logical, that the DK moves-as JI instead of becoming JI.

 

Option 1 would be the closest option to RAW, as has been stated, but it involves conflicting rule types with no clear factor to say which one you follow in given situations. The game does not work fine "as-is" for option 2. DK in a stormraven and getting cover saves from shrubbery is not "fine", it's clearly wrong. Just look at the model sir. it is not a mixed unit type, it is a MC that moves as a JI, the clearest RAI there is on the subject. The reason (i hope) people say it is a MC/JI hybrid is in response to people that keep saying it no longer is a MC, which is dumb, just dumb. Shame on you if you think paying points for upgrades makes you worse.

 

You may think changing "becomes" to "move-as" is a house rule, but id say its more common sense than anything. Infantry may change types by taking wargear (always an upgrade btw), but tell me where your seeing MC, IC, Tanks and any other unit type you can come up with that take wargear that DOWNGRADES them? The purpose of wargear is for upgrades, thats why you pay the points. its not a system of balancing out a units effectiveness. its a risk-reward gamble.

[Gentlemanloser]

Interesting statement here, Gentleman. If there is no correct RAW for this argument, why do you insist on there are only 2 ways to INTERPRET this rule . you've missed out on the 3rd option, which is clearly the most logical, that the DK moves-as JI instead of becoming JI.

 

Becuase the RAW for the PT states otherwise.

 

The game does not work fine "as-is" for option 2. DK in a stormraven and getting cover saves from shrubbery is not "fine", it's clearly wrong.

 

Works fine as in no rules are conflicted, and you don't need any houserules to play the game.

 

Not works fine as in "is the most logical and well thought out option".

 

You may think changing "becomes" to "move-as" is a house rule

 

Of course it is. You're changing a printed rule of the game to something other than it is...

 

but tell me where your seeing MC, IC, Tanks and any other unit type you can come up with that take wargear that DOWNGRADES them?

 

I'm sure downgrade is subject ot opinion, but here goes.

 

GK vehicles with Psybolt Ammo. Losing the defensive status form Storm bolters/Hurricane Bolters.

 

Space Marines with Bikes no longer being able to embark Rhino's/Drop Pods.

 

But.

 

I'd like clarification why you think changing a NDK form MC to JI is downgrading it? Riding in a SR and gaining cover are all nice bonuses.