More Stormraven Questions

[Shyft]

The Dreadnought carried by a Stormraven; where can it deploy from? Anywhere within 2" of it's base? or Only from the back?

 

Further, can a Dreadnought assault the same turn it has disembarked from the transport, (assuming the Transport did not move so fast as to deny disembarkation anyway.)?

[chromedog]

From the base. Anywhere around the base (as long as it isn't on top of the troops).

 

Yes, it can. SR is an "Assault vehicle" allowing it. If it didn't have the rule, then the troops couldn't assault either.

[Shyft]

awesome, thanks man!

[uberschveinen]

I always make some room in an list for a Fistnaught whenever I'm taking a Stormraven. For all that a Psyfleman is normally good because it can do full damage from turn one, when you have the option to drop a standard-load Venerable into the middle of the enemy formation on turn two and have it charge, you take it. The other guy either has to adjust their entire formation to stop it going on a rampage, invest an ungodly amount of firepower into killing it, or ignore it and hope to hell that it doesn't do that much damage. It's also probably the only thing in the game that's MORE likely to crack open a Land Raider than the Vindicaire, and at a comparable cost. Only plan for this if you've actually already decided on a Stormraven. That way you get better value out of an existing investment. If you weren't going to take it, it's not good enough to justify it.

[number6]

I always make some room in an list for a Fistnaught whenever I'm taking a Stormraven. For all that a Psyfleman is normally good because it can do full damage from turn one, when you have the option to drop a standard-load Venerable into the middle of the enemy formation on turn two and have it charge, you take it.

I also do the same thing. Only my smallest point army lists that still happen to use a stormraven don't also include an embarked ven dread. It's too good not to do!

[Cmdr Shepard]

I always make some room in an list for a Fistnaught whenever I'm taking a Stormraven. For all that a Psyfleman is normally good because it can do full damage from turn one, when you have the option to drop a standard-load Venerable into the middle of the enemy formation on turn two and have it charge, you take it.

I also do the same thing. Only my smallest point army lists that still happen to use a stormraven don't also include an embarked ven dread. It's too good not to do!

The Dread have a "charge range" of 22.5": Stormraven can move up to 12", the dread is place within 2" from stormraven's base, then you add the dread's base lenght of 2.5"( since, if I remember correctly the distance between vehicle/model can be measured from the disembarked model's "rear base border") and the standard 6". You can usually achieve a first turn charge( a part from particular forms of deployment)

[veidin]

Just hope your storm raven doesnt get alpha strike assaulted by anything that can surround the base. If it gets blown up/wrecked you lose the squad inside, the dread, and the stormraven. Almost an insta concede turn one with that kind of loss.

[number6]

The Dread have a "charge range" of 22.5": Stormraven can move up to 12", the dread is place within 2" from stormraven's base, then you add the dread's base lenght of 2.5"( since, if I remember correctly the distance between vehicle/model can be measured from the disembarked model's "rear base border") and the standard 6". You can usually achieve a first turn charge( a part from particular forms of deployment)

Actually, quality players won't let you get a 1st turn charge in. They should know all the measurements and deploy appropriately regardless of the game.

Just hope your storm raven doesnt get alpha strike assaulted by anything that can surround the base. If it gets blown up/wrecked you lose the squad inside, the dread, and the stormraven. Almost an insta concede turn one with that kind of loss.

How does that even happen? How can you get alpha assaulted on Turn 1?! Learn 2 Deploy! :)

 

Yes, if the stormraven goes down you've lost something important. But you'll still have the guys you were transporting and the dread. Not useless at all. It's no different than learning how to deal with the loss of a land raider or 3 of your razorbacks in one lucky round of shooting. These losses can be accounted for.

 

The key to using the Stormraven is not making it the sole point of attack. Because so many points can go invested into its utility, you have to be extra careful with the rest of your army list. The stormraven will always stand out a bit -- because it's got great firepower and can quickly deliver your assets around the table -- but you can't let it stand out "too obviously". It's use must be balanced by an incredibly lethal surrounding list. If they want to shoot at your stormraven, OK then. You better have a list that can punish them hard even if you lose it because of their focus on it.

[veidin]

The Dread have a "charge range" of 22.5": Stormraven can move up to 12", the dread is place within 2" from stormraven's base, then you add the dread's base lenght of 2.5"( since, if I remember correctly the distance between vehicle/model can be measured from the disembarked model's "rear base border") and the standard 6". You can usually achieve a first turn charge( a part from particular forms of deployment)

Actually, quality players won't let you get a 1st turn charge in. They should know all the measurements and deploy appropriately regardless of the game.

Just hope your storm raven doesnt get alpha strike assaulted by anything that can surround the base. If it gets blown up/wrecked you lose the squad inside, the dread, and the stormraven. Almost an insta concede turn one with that kind of loss.

How does that even happen? How can you get alpha assaulted on Turn 1?! Learn 2 Deploy! :)

 

Yes, if the stormraven goes down you've lost something important. But you'll still have the guys you were transporting and the dread. Not useless at all. It's no different than learning how to deal with the loss of a land raider or 3 of your razorbacks in one lucky round of shooting. These losses can be accounted for.

 

The key to using the Stormraven is not making it the sole point of attack. Because so many points can go invested into its utility, you have to be extra careful with the rest of your army list. The stormraven will always stand out a bit -- because it's got great firepower and can quickly deliver your assets around the table -- but you can't let it stand out "too obviously". It's use must be balanced by an incredibly lethal surrounding list. If they want to shoot at your stormraven, OK then. You better have a list that can punish them hard even if you lose it because of their focus on it.

 

You've never played against a competent DE player then in pitched battle I assume. Raider lines up on its side turn 1 full forward in it's deployment. Rotate to face forward turn one gaining extra 2.5" due to length. 12" move, 2" disembark, 1-6" fleet roll, 6" assault range. That's a possible 28" turn one assault range from wyches. Or scout shunts with Interceptors. Scout shunt 30" to the Raven. If you have turn one you now assault it with the squad surrounding the base and the hammer may kill it.

 

The different with LR and Ravens is that you can emergency disembark from a LR pretty safely since there is little to no chance of a single unit surrounding it. A storm Raven's base can be easily surrounded and if you have the dreadnought in the grapple and a unit embarked and the Raven gets blown up while surrounded you auto lose everything embarked and the dread along with the Raven.

 

Alpha strike assaults are not exactly uncommon so Learn 2 Deploy isn't really a valid argument :P

[nurglez]

well scout and shunt is still debatable, and the pivoting to gain extra movement isn't right at all, but either way, if your opponent can do this and has deployed to do this, either deploy far back, or dont deploy at all and reserve your army. (or roll better when rolling for deployment type :) ).

[greatcrusade08]

SM scout armies can normally suprise folks with alpha strikes, they infiltrate so generally deploy last, then scout move, then turn one ugliness.. very sneaky

[veidin]

well scout and shunt is still debatable, and the pivoting to gain extra movement isn't right at all, but either way, if your opponent can do this and has deployed to do this, either deploy far back, or dont deploy at all and reserve your army. (or roll better when rolling for deployment type :lol: ).

 

Agreed, I was just making a point that it's possible that's all. Some people dont realize the threat until they just lost a SR, Libby, Purifier squad and their dreadnought all in one assault. :) The pivoting for extra movement sadly is correct. At least until 6th ed comes out and hopefully they change it!

 

Shrike assault termie lists can also cause this to happen.

[number6]

Alpha strike assaults are not exactly uncommon so Learn 2 Deploy isn't really a valid argument :lol:

It's only common because people don't Learn 2 Deploy! :) In your situation, the DE have deployed first, and deployed aggressively. You have no excuses for being surprised at their intentions, deploy accordingly and prevent yourself from being alpha struck. This is not rocket science!

[Chengar Qordath]

Alpha strike assaults are not exactly uncommon so Learn 2 Deploy isn't really a valid argument :P

It's only common because people don't Learn 2 Deploy! ;) In your situation, the DE have deployed first, and deployed aggressively. You have no excuses for being surprised at their intentions, deploy accordingly and prevent yourself from being alpha struck. This is not rocket science!

Quite so; even if the terrain is set up in a way where you can't be 100% safe from Alpha Strikes, there's no reason you can't just reserve your Stormravens.

[Inquisitor Fox]

This is just a large example of the realization that the game doesn't begin when models are moved... it begins at mission objectives, side selection, deploying first or second... one can argue the game begins with roster selection and as soon as someone replies "Sure" to your question of "Hey, fancy a game?"

 

It's a contest between generals, the same as poker, chess, checkers, go, etc. Strategy, bluffing, sizing up or intimidating ones opponent, selling your "plan" only to cunningly go a totally different direction, these are all viable things. That's why some models have abilities so subtle like adding to reserve rolls, or to sieze the intiative, or letting you redeploy things. Some players will say these models are hideously overcosted... other players will say they're worth their points cost in gold (not weight.. plastic isn't heavy :P ). Everyone has a different style and you play to suit your own skills and temperment.

 

Planning on any "one trick pony" is a huge gamble. Yeah, it might work.. until everyone learns your trick. That's why I always talk about army lists with multiple "tools" to have at one's disposal, or as number6 puts it, a balanced well rounded army list. Storm Ravens are great, two might even be better... but if all you're doing is a Storm Raven rush.. that's a one trick pony. Mixing a Storm Raven deployment with advancing Land Raider / heavy support and a few selective deep strikes via teleportation... that's beginning to give you options which allow you to control the flow of the game by using the trick that's appropriate to that situation.

[templargdt]

I always make some room in an list for a Fistnaught whenever I'm taking a Stormraven. For all that a Psyfleman is normally good because it can do full damage from turn one, when you have the option to drop a standard-load Venerable into the middle of the enemy formation on turn two and have it charge, you take it.

I also do the same thing. Only my smallest point army lists that still happen to use a stormraven don't also include an embarked ven dread. It's too good not to do!

 

Really? What are you guys equiping the Venerable with? That's a heck of a lot of points for two AV-12 vehicles.

[uberschveinen]

I equip the Venerable with nothing. Multi-Melta and Fist do just dandy at making it capable of killing anything it comes up against, and their range limitations are null when transported with an Assault Vehicle. And the Venerable itself is a hell of a lot tougher than anything else at AV12, and often anything with an AV. Being able to force rerolls on Vehicle Damage, combined with effectively being able to ignore Stunned and Shaken results, means that even things that penetrate have about a 5/9 chance of doing nothing. In combat, particularly, it's close to unkillable.

 

And, yes, it IS a huge investment if you approach it from the concept of Dreadnought-running. That's why I don't. The value of a Dreadnought drop is significant enough to warrant taking a Dreadnought if you already have a Stormraven. In my higher-point lists, I often have Stormravens, because they are a cheaper and faster DCA delivery system than a Land Raider. That they do die rather easily when on gunship duties is of minimal concern to me, because by then they've delivered their package, and their continued presence is a wonderful fire magnet away from my much-more-fragile and much-more-deadly Psyker killteams.

[number6]

Although I don't use DCA, my thoughts are almost exactly the same as those of uberschveinen. A venerable dread is actually quite survivable and worth 175 as-is even without a stormraven. A BS 5 MM and WS 5 doomfist on a walker that is quite survivable thanks to Venerable? YES, PLEASE! :) This is a quality unit you can footslog if you wanted. But since I'm taking the stormraven, it's the perfect thing to slot on board. I have the ability to deploy it quickly somewhere useful, and the stormraven itself is an additional layer of protection over the dread.

 

True, you don't have to embark a dread of any kind onto a stormraven to make the skimmer worth its points in your list. But part of what you are paying for is that transport capacity. Because it's unique and different, I've made a point of figuring out army lists that can make good use of that capability. Why not? :D

[Inquisitor Fox]

I'd argue that even the ability to pinpoint deploy a psybolt ammo Mortis-pattern with autocannons Dreadnought is worth the points as well. Imagine the damage you can do now with those autocannons on rear shots of enemy armor instead of front shots or maybe a side shot from foot slogging. Now they have to decide to turn and face your dread, or keep going towards the rest of your army exposing the rear of their tanks. Anytime you force them to make a decision you mess with their head and their gameplan, keeping them on edge and more likely to make a mistake or forget to do something. And the best part is that Mortis pattern dread can be as cheap as 135 points, well worth including.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

How are people finding Stormravens btw? I'm still assembling mine, the Dreadknight is standing in as the 'big scary thing to shoot pointlessly at' guy for now.

[Daedalus Templarius]

I was planning on taking a Stormraven in a slightly different version of my usual double-LR Draigowing... but everyone keeps telling me that GK are amazing at shooting as well, so it seems kind of silly just to throw them into assault out of a LR as soon as possible (although its usually pretty effective, except they now take a bunch of things to kill LRs :( ).

 

I figured a SR would be better to try and get into assault faster, so I was going to put in a Lib and summon everything to him after I got to the other side of the board, however, in an objectives game, plopping down a squad of paladins on an objective and having them shoot is quite effective. So... I dropped the SR and brought another dreadknight and a few more things to go with some kind of footslog list. I imagine it will work well since my opponents target priority will be confused, as there won't be any giant metal bawkses for him to initially focus all of his fire on.

 

My reasoning to drop the SR is basically how quickly I've had mine die in just about every game I've played them with. Getting popped midfield just negates the whole reason you brought the thing in the first place. They are just such a juicy target for anything on the other end of the board with decent range. My LRs tend to last much longer than SRs, since they can usually get some decent cover/LOS-blocking. Also, as GK, there isn't much you want to deliver into assault as soon as possible. This is clearly the case for assault terminators from regular SM/BA... but they can't shoot nearly as well as GK.

[Decoy]

How are people finding Stormravens btw? I'm still assembling mine, the Dreadknight is standing in as the 'big scary thing to shoot pointlessly at' guy for now.

 

Playing against them, I've not had any trouble dropping them. However, as everyone above said, it's all about deployment, positioning, and essentially playing the Meta part of the game. I've watched other players get absolutely mauled by well-played Storm Ravens, and when I say Mauled, I mean... Ech. Someone get a spatula to pick up the mess.

 

The Raven, when played well, can be devastating in every regard; as a gunship, as a transport, and as a fire magnet. However, they have to be played -well-, otherwise their loss can cripple your entire gameplan, given how many points they are. They're very unforgiving to play, I'd wager; one mis-step could ultimately spell doom for your entire strategy. I would say use them, but use them wisely. Anything less than a near-perfect gameplan regarding them will result in a huge hinderance in your ability to utilize them further.

[Grimtooth]

I think way too much faith is placed in an AV 12 vehicle such as the SR. If it gets dropped, even if everything in it survives, you have removed the main reason most people got the darn thing in the first place, MOBILITY.

 

For the two armies that can take them, both need that mobility. BA can take fast tanks, but if they are not, they are either DOA or SR heavy lists. GK can deep strike, teleport, or take SR, but they need the mobility to get into their ranged sweet spot.

 

Personally, if I were to ever use SR in a GK list, they would really be fast weapon platforms for me primarily with quick rapid deployment/objective contesting as their secondary mission. Zipping around delivering heavy fire until at what time they could swoop in to pick up troops or dreadnoughts for rapid redeployment or last turn objective contesting.

[boreas]

Yep. From my experience, you have to take at least two, otherwise your opponent can concentrate fire and shoot it down easily. But two are costly, so you cannot invest a lot on what's inside. A bunch of DCA (6 to 8) will do quite a job against most opponents. Killing 3-4 SS&TH termies or killing those 2 heavy weapons squad in a ruin will change the game. At the same time, I keep them cheap: TL-MM and TL-AC. This way, they can hunt down all types of vehicles (I prefer the Assault cannon because I often face IG vehicle squadrons in the backfield). Now, two of those units will take a large chunk of a 2000pts army, and I think it's the minimum points at which SRs can be taken. At 1500pts, I'd rather have a single LR...

 

Phil

[Reclusiarch Darius]

But I only want one, to move the Paladins or Purifiers around (cos they're annoyingly slow and like to hack things up). Is having two PsyDreads and a Dreadknight w/telporter+sword enough target saturation?