Heavy support Choices

[Morollan]

I almost always run a Dev squad in my armies. In fact last night my Devs were the stars of the show when they wiped out an entire Chaos Terminator squad, plus some Thousand Sons, Khârn and a bunch of Berzerkers and also damaged some ruins, forcing the occupying troops out into the open and allowing my own troops to take the objective.

 

I'm now considering running 2 5-man squads, each with 2 heavy weapons and a rhino. The rhino obviously offers some protection to the devs and enables them to relocate extremely quickly with an 18" flatout move. On the downside, the devs can be suppressed more easily with stunned and shaken results.

[Deus_Sanguinius]

@Morollan: What was the weapon loadout of your Devs?

 

Cheers

Sang

[Morollan]

3 x ML and MM.

[liberate_tutame]

Not to say Baals are suckage (6 Pred armies can be lolzy/decent), but Dakka Preds aren't either. Just get your AT somewhere else.

 

Dakka preds are a waste because Baal's have the four rending Ass-cannon, apart from having scout, giving it the ability to take on all comers. Compared to the other option in the heavy slot the ac/las pred or dev's they are a weak choice.

As for getting you AT somewhere else, well, I don't think you can really have enough hard hitting long-range firepower, 48" (possible +6" thanks to moving with the ac/las pred) is great. I've never had a problem with hordes, mostly because of the mobility of BA mech and the fact we are fine in assault with a Sang Priest.

[DreadLift]

What a great response to my question, thank you. So it boils down to

 

A) devastators- if I go this route then I will have to provide them with some kind of transport to stick with my mostly mech theme

 

:ph34r: AC / Las Preds

 

C) Storm Raven

 

 

D) Baal Pred which although fast attack could still upset my opponent nicely.

 

 

I do have a storm raven painted up for my DC and DC Dread and have used it a few times. I liked what it could do but didnt like the fragility of it. Will try it again

 

Devastators I don't have but can easily make some with all my bitz. I think x 3 ML and a Las.

 

Will buy a Pred as I must admit this option sounds like my flavour mostly and I do already have a Baal Pred. I will try out a few combos out and see what works for me and my boys. I think I will be torn between Preds and the Devs but we shall see.

 

Once again guys I and my Knights of Blood thank you for taking the time to reply ;)

 

Cheers

 

Dread

[Cpt. Blood Donator]

What a great response to my question, thank you. So it boils down to

 

A) devastators- if I go this route then I will have to provide them with some kind of transport to stick with my mostly mech theme

 

B) AC / Las Preds

 

C) Storm Raven

 

 

D) Baal Pred which although fast attack could still upset my opponent nicely.

 

 

I do have a storm raven painted up for my DC and DC Dread and have used it a few times. I liked what it could do but didnt like the fragility of it. Will try it again

 

Devastators I don't have but can easily make some with all my bitz. I think x 3 ML and a Las.

 

Will buy a Pred as I must admit this option sounds like my flavour mostly and I do already have a Baal Pred. I will try out a few combos out and see what works for me and my boys. I think I will be torn between Preds and the Devs but we shall see.

 

Once again guys I and my Knights of Blood thank you for taking the time to reply :)

 

Cheers

 

Dread

 

The 3x M.L and Las dreads won't dissapoint. The M.L are also great for orks and what-not if you run out of trucks or run into a foot list. I'm not sure those need a transport, the point of the devastator squad for B.A is that they are sweet and cheap. Don't ruin it with a rhino.

[Zhukov]

Dakka preds are a waste because Baal's have the four rending Ass-cannon, apart from having scout, giving it the ability to take on all comers.

This makes no sense, really. Again: You pay a hefty 45 points for this. And because the Dakka Pred can't touch heavy armour means it's bad for all comers lists? Wut?

 

Compared to the other option in the heavy slot the ac/las pred or dev's they are a weak choice.

Why? It does different things.

 

I've never had a problem with hordes, mostly because of the mobility of BA mech and the fact we are fine in assault with a Sang Priest.

Why do you assume that Dakka Preds are anti-horde only? They are anti-infantry and are decent/good against light vehicles. They're also another Av13 hull, which combined with being Fast means it can do all sorts of nice things. (blocking/tankshocking/giving cover to other vehicles for example)

 

Hint: It depends on the list.

[Cpt. Blood Donator]

Dakka preds are a waste because Baal's have the four rending Ass-cannon, apart from having scout, giving it the ability to take on all comers.

This makes no sense, really. Again: You pay a hefty 45 points for this. And because the Dakka Pred can't touch heavy armour means it's bad for all comers lists? Wut?

 

Compared to the other option in the heavy slot the ac/las pred or dev's they are a weak choice.

Why? It does different things.

 

I've never had a problem with hordes, mostly because of the mobility of BA mech and the fact we are fine in assault with a Sang Priest.

Why do you assume that Dakka Preds are anti-horde only? They are anti-infantry and are decent/good against light vehicles. They're also another Av13 hull, which combined with being Fast means it can do all sorts of nice things. (blocking/tankshocking/giving cover to other vehicles for example)

 

Hint: It depends on the list.

 

All good points. I wanted to say something about the pts difference for preds and baals to, but I almost felt like a rapid dog after so many posts.

For we, the biggest problem with the auto-las pred is "what's it gonna do to a real tank?". Against a raider or a russ, the autocannon does nothing, and one of the lascannons has a good chance of missing. This is the followed by a 1/3 chance to do anyting to it, and a 1/6 chance to actually penetrate. The ML and Las-devs may not have a much better shot at it, but all weapons are doing something. If you're shooting at a rhino or trukk, you might as well have taken the dakka pred.

[Zhukov]

AC/LC Preds in general shoot at anything AV12 or less. While Lasscannons can (and sometimes will) hurt Av13 and Av14, this isn't what it does efficiently. Melta does that. AC/LC is mainly anti-transport/MC's, anti-infantry and anti-heavy tank secondary.

 

Same goes for Devastators though: Unreliable as hell against Av13 and Av14. Melta is really the way to deal with these kinda things. (exceptions are there of course, if I feel I gain something with shooting at Av13/14 with my AC/LC Preds then I will)

[liberate_tutame]

This makes no sense, really. Again: You pay a hefty 45 points for this. And because the Dakka Pred can't touch heavy armour means it's bad for all comers lists? Wut?

I wouldn't really get the Heavy Bolter sponsons on the Baal's, you need to be moving 12" to get those side armour hits with the Ass-cannon and to ensure that your getting that 6 to hit from enemy counter units. But as I said, at least the Assault cannon CAN hurt everything out there. What about that makes 'no sense' to you? And yes, I would rate utility very highly, the ability to be used in any situation is better than a mediocre shooty tank that can only fulfill one role.

 

Why? It does different things.

Fine, but it doesn't do them very effectively. MeQ is the most common army out there, and they struggle to put enough wounds on Marines to really worry them. You are talking about one or two dead marines a turn, not even a break test. For me an anti-infantry unit should be much more troubling for infantry units caught out in the open. Well, my Ac/Las Pred does that, while threatening everything else in the game at a longer range. The same is true of the Dev's.

 

Why do you assume that Dakka Preds are anti-horde only? They are anti-infantry and are decent/good against light vehicles.

 

Not really. Anything that is hoping for a 6 to glance with his main weapons (6 H.bolter shots) on a Rhino is pretty unimpressive in my book. Hoping for the pen on 2 AC shots? Yeah, sure. Great anti-Light Vehicle unit. The only vehicles the dakka pred worries are the paper thin Raiders and Venoms, or Sentinel/War Walker squadrons. And even then the Ac/Las pred is better simpyl because the lascannon is better.

 

They're also another Av13 hull, which combined with being Fast means it can do all sorts of nice things. (blocking/tankshocking/giving cover to other vehicles for example)

The Baal or AC/las pred can do those things fine, and in the case of the Baal, do it better because of Scouting.

 

Hint: It depends on the list.

Sure, and 90% of lists do not need the dakka pred (I struggle to think of any that does to be honest...). It's a poor choice when compared to other options in the same slot at the same cost.

 

While Lasscannons can (and sometimes will) hurt Av13 and Av14, this isn't what it does efficiently

Well, you said it yourself. It can hurt Av 13 and 14. That's my point, and it does it at range, so the unit itself is safe from melta. The same is true of Dev's. It's the ability to spam S8 shots that makes them good. That they can hurt units, while the dakka pred is stuck rattling the Rhino's or Razorbacks, or if it faces a DOA list is stuck killing a marine a turn because of the 3+ save and 4+ FnP.

 

Like I said, it's not a middling choice for the Heavy slot, it's a poor choice.

[Zhukov]

I wouldn't really get the Heavy Bolter sponsons on the Baal's, you need to be moving 12" to get those side armour hits with the Ass-cannon and to ensure that your getting that 6 to hit from enemy counter units.

Now it's even more of a different unit, fail comparison much?

 

But as I said, at least the Assault cannon CAN hurt everything out there. What about that makes 'no sense' to you?

What makes no sense? How a different unit with different roles makes another unit not good. That makes no sense.

 

And yes, I would rate utility very highly, the ability to be used in any situation is better than a mediocre shooty tank that can only fulfill one role.

1 role? Sorry, I can do more than 1 thing with Dakka Preds, if you can't then you don't understand the utility of the Dakka Pred. I could write a quick guide on it if you need it ;)

 

Fine, but it doesn't do them very effectively. MeQ is the most common army out there, and they struggle to put enough wounds on Marines to really worry them. You are talking about one or two wounds dead marines a turn, not even a break test.

That's not bad if that's just one the roles he fullfills. Point 3 Dakka Preds at a Long Fang squad and odds are it's gone. That not bad from 1 turn of fire from 300 points.

 

Want me to do the math for Baals, how much that tank does on average a turn? Or wait, it does something different when you only equip it with a TL-Ass cannon, why do I get this and you don't?

 

For me an anti-infantry unit should be much more troubling for infantry units caught out in the open. Well, my Ac/Las Pred does that, while threatening everything else in the game at a longer range. The same is true of the Dev's.

We're playing in the era of cover saves, at least I do. My oppenents tend to be capabel enough of getting themselves cover. AC/LC is inferior against infantry in general, you cannot discuss against that.

 

Not really. Anything that is hoping for a 6 to glance with his main weapons (6 H.bolter shots) on a Rhino is pretty unimpressive in my book. Hoping for the pen on 2 AC shots? Yeah, sure. Great anti-Light Vehicle unit. The only vehicles the dakka pred worries are the paper thin Raiders and Venoms, or Sentinel/War Walker squadrons. And even then the Ac/Las pred is better simpyl because the lascannon is better.

Don't misquote me please, decent/good is something different than great. But oke, I'll bite:

 

-Side shots on chimeras, Fast does that. Oh hey, S5 does hurt Av10.

-Putting wounds on infantry at a great range, that's good.

-AC does hurt Rhinos.

-Speeders

-beats Dark Eldar

-beats Vypers/Warwalkers/threatens Serpents (especially when moving 18" straight up a flank)

-Good against Orks in general

-Good against Nids in general

-Good against Daemons in general

 

100 points. <<<< Maybe you don't realise it yet, but the Dakka Pred is cheap for what it does.

 

 

The Baal or AC/las pred can do those things fine, and in the case of the Baal, do it better because of Scouting.

Once again: Dakka Pred is 100 points. You know, so you have more points to spend elsewhere, to get more stuff.

 

 

Sure, and 90% of lists do not need the dakka pred (I struggle to think of any that does to be honest...). It's a poor choice when compared to other options in the same slot at the same cost

.

You still don't get it do you? I'm not saying "OMGZ everybody should take Dakka Preds!!!". It's an OPTION. You can build an army with Dakka Preds in it and still be pretty much as competitive as lists without those.

 

I guess it would be nice from me to support that last statement with an actual list, oke, here you go:

 

Libby; combie-melta, Shield + Fear 110

2x Priest 100

5 ASM; melta/infernus/LC, Rhino 155

5 ASM; melta/infernus/LC, Rhino 155

5 ASM; melta/infernus/LC, Rhino 155

5 ASM; melta/infernus/LC, Rhino 155

5 ASM, flamer, Las/Plas 160

5 ASM, flamer, Las/Plas 160

2 MM Attack Bikes 100

2 MM Attack Bikes 100

2 MM Attack Bikes 100

Dakka Pred 100

Dakka Pred 100

Dakka Pred 100

Total: 1750

[liberate_tutame]

Now it's even more of a different unit, fail comparison much?

 

Is this what passes for wit these days? Adding the Heavy Bolters to a Baal makes it less comparable to the dakka pred because of the points cost. Do you understand?

 

I shouldn't have to explain the obvious advantages of being able to move 12" (never mind the 6's to hit in combat) and fire with a better primary weapon so as to more effectively get side shots rathar than try with a 6" move and fire with all or move 12" and fire with two S7 shots. It's not that I think two S7 isn't mediocre against side armour (although I do think this), it's the dakka pred struggles to fulfill that role.

 

100 points? I don't see it fulfilling any sort of useful role in mech or DOA, roles that need to be filled by significantly more effective choices in the Heavy support slot. But hey, 100 points used in an ineffective way sounds like a bargain to me!

 

Don't misquote me please, decent/good is something different than great.

It's not that it isn't 'decent', (it's I don't think so, but you are free to believe this if you want) it's that there are far superior choices in the slot. The role you are giving it, is better fulfilled by Baal's. The need for firepower is better fulfilled by dev's and the Ac/Las Pred.

 

I honestly know of no BA army that struggle with 'hordes'. Our close combat S5 I5 gives us a powerful counter-punch in mech and solid assault ability in jumper lists. The dakka pred is out of place and over priced in the BA codex.

 

That's not bad if that's just one the roles he fullfills. Point 3 Dakka Preds at a Long Fang squad and odds are it's gone. That not bad from 1 turn of fire from 300 points.

Wishful thinking. You still have to deal with two other Long fangs squads. And killing six marines a turn? Yep, huge success. Do the math on three Baal's hmm?

 

Want me to do the math for Baals, how much that tank does on average a turn? Or wait, it does something different when you only equip it with a TL-Ass cannon, why do I get this and you don't?

That'd be great. AV 10, 11,12,13 and 14, please.

Thanks.

[Zhukov]

You're beginning to confuse yourselves now, I can't reply to you if you talk about a Baal only equipped with a TL-Asscannon 1 time, while talking about a Baal equiped with TL-Asscannon and HB's the other :D

 

Adding the Heavy Bolters to a Baal makes it less comparable to the dakka pred because of the points cost. Do you understand?

So you insist on comparing a single TL-Asscannon here to 2 HB's and an Autocannon? Confuses me, sorry.

 

I shouldn't have to explain the obvious advantages of being able to move 12" (never mind the 6's to hit in combat) and fire with a better primary weapon so as to more effectively get side shots rathar than try with a 6" move and fire with all or move 12" and fire with two S7 shots. It's not that I think two S7 isn't mediocre against side armour (although I do think this), it's the dakka pred struggles to fulfill that role.

Dakka Preds don't get hit by 6's in combat, because they ain't that close to your oppenent. Apparantly you place your Baals close enough that the 6's in combat matters right? But doesn't that mean you're within melta range too? Baal go 'puff' to that.

 

 

The role you are giving it, is better fulfilled by Baal's.

No it isn't, cause I get practicly 3 Dakka Preds for the cost of 2 Baals. Baals having a different range and taking up a different slot. 3 targets versus 2, 3 vehicles versus 2. Once again: I can do all kinds of stuff with my vehicles, maybe you don't. That's fine, then just keep rushing your Baals in and fire that TL-Asscannon, that's indeed not to hard to get.

 

The need for firepower is better fulfilled by dev's and the Ac/Las Pred.

These are anti-tank units, Dakka Preds aren't, stop making that silly comparison please.

 

I honestly know of no BA army that struggle with 'hordes'.

*sigh*

 

Do the math on three Baal's hmm?

That wouldn't be fair, I get 3 for the price of 2 Baals. Now the thing is, the Baals will win out in straight damage output; although not by much (3.89 versus 3.91 or so? That's pretty equal haha) But now the difference and why Mathhammer alone fails here:

 

-Your Baals are within 24" of the target, for example Long Fangs. How hard is it for your oppenent to kill them next turn? Answer: Not hard. Why? You'll be within meltarange, unless the SW player is being stupid by putting his Long Fangs as foward as possible while keeping his melta in the back of course. Let's assume we're not playing idiots shall we? Now the Dakka Preds on the other hand to it from a 36" range, this is beyond melta range.

 

-Baals in midfield makes it harder to protect their side armour. Dakka Preds can protect theirs much easier as they can operate on extreme angles.

 

-You lose 1 Baal next turn, your firepower drops in half. You lose 1 Dakka Pred (which is already harder as pointed out above), your firepower drops with a third.

 

That'd be great. AV 10, 11,12,13 and 14, please.

Thanks.

See above, that's not the whole story. This also shows once again that you don't get it: I don't point Dakka Preds at Av13 or Av14, that's not what they are supposed to do.

[Isryion]

OMG. Take it to PMs.

[Zhukov]

OMG. Take it to PMs.

Why, what's wrong with discussing the uses of units? Isn't that what this forum is also for? Maybe we discuss in a bit of a rough way, but it's fair play and nothing personal :D Well at least not from my side haha.

[liberate_tutame]

You're beginning to confuse yourselves now, I can't reply to you if you talk about a Baal only equipped with a TL-Asscannon 1 time, while talking about a Baal equiped with TL-Asscannon and HB's the other :P

I think you are the one confused. I said that is what I am comparing, a Baal to a AC/Heavy Bolter Pred because their points are comparable and their primary targets would be similar. A correct comparison for the rest of your post would be three Baal's. You are right to warn of melta range, but that only ever becomes an issue against attack bikes. who have a melta range of 24". Melta gun need to be within that 6" to be effective against AV 13. I really don't need to worry about one of my two tanks getting slagged because if I were to exchange two tanks for three Dakka preds it would be the Ac/las pred, which would be a delicious 48" away from any melta threats. But we're getting sidetracked.

 

I used the Baal as an example of an equivalent unit. But you have yet to prove that the firepower from the Devastators or the Ac/Las preds is inferior to the Dakka pred.

 

See above, that's not the whole story. This also shows once again that you don't get it: I don't point Dakka Preds at Av13 or Av14, that's not what they are supposed to do.

 

You keep missing the point. The three units, Baal's, Ac/Las Preds and Dev's are better than their equivalent points in Dakka preds not JUST because they are able to fire at units the dakka preds can't harm, it's because they are about as good at doing the main task of the Dakka pred as well.

 

That's my point. Quite a lively discussion, I was hoping to see the math for the lower AV stuff. I am a big fan of that list you put up, do you run it? How has it fared in tourney's? Though I would still pick 2 Dev's with 3 ML's and a Lascannon rather than the Dakka Preds. :D

[liberate_tutame]

OMG. Take it to PMs.

 

Shhh, this is how BA players flirt. :D

[d@n]

the hardest BA list i ever played against had 3 vindis followed by tech priest with jump pack.Those licifer pattern engines makes BA vindicators a real threat to just about everything.

[Zhukov]

Damn, I can't go away from this forum like this :)

 

I think you are the one confused. I said that is what I am comparing, a Baal to a AC/Heavy Bolter Pred because their points are comparable and their primary targets would be similar.

Hmm, but I'm afraid 1 Tl-Asscannon will simply be inferior agianst almost any kind of infantry, even without doing the math. Simply because for those 30 extra points spend on HB's gets you 6 extra shots... If you run Baals with only a single TL-Asscannon (fine btw) then it becomes much more of straight up Anti-tank unit with minor anti-infantry, agree?

 

but that only ever becomes an issue against attack bikes. who have a melta range of 24". Melta gun need to be within that 6" to be effective against AV 13.

Sorry, can't agree with this. Thing is, stuff moves. Melta units in rhinos move up into midfield for example. Also Long Fangs are often place at the back of the army (well they should haha), so that even melta in rhinos will most likely be in range... (having an effetive 21" range: 12" + 6" + 2" disembarking + 1" base, might you decide to do so)

 

I really don't need to worry about one of my two tanks getting slagged because if I were to exchange two tanks for three Dakka preds it would be the Ac/las pred, which would be a delicious 48" away from any melta threats. But we're getting sidetracked.

Ya true, like I said: Baals + AC/LC is fine too, nothing wrong with it.

 

I used the Baal as an example of an equivalent unit. But you have yet to prove that the firepower from the Devastators or the Ac/Las preds is inferior to the Dakka pred

.

Devestators can't do, too much of a different unit as its static and not a vehicle. They're also fine, but it lead to a different build. (I would go and play with some tactical squads in this case too for example heh)

 

AC/LC can do.

2 Lasscannons against Meq in cover: 0,55 wound.

2 HB's against Meq in cover: 0,88 wound.

 

So yes, of course the Lasscannons will be better against things like Termies/FnP etc. HB's will be better against other things though, which brings me back again at the fact that it's just a different unit in the end. And still 35 points cheaper ;)

 

it's because they are about as good at doing the main task of the Dakka pred as well

.

Disagree ;)

 

That's my point. Quite a lively discussion, I was hoping to see the math for the lower AV stuff.

Can do. Will edit it in here later.

 

I am a big fan of that list you put up, do you run it? How has it fared in tourney's?

Nope sorry, I don't run it myself, but my overall 40k knowledge is adequate enough I believe that I can say with certainty that list is fine :P

 

Now Ironicly enough, this is the list I'm busy building myself atm and which I'll use later this year in as many (larger) tourneys as possible (expect battlereports):

 

Mephiston 250

MM/HF Speeder 70

MM/HF Speeder 70

2x Priest, LC + CM 150

5 ASM; melta/infernus/LC, Rhino 155

5 ASM; melta/infernus/LC, Rhino 155

5 ASM; melta/infernus/LC, Rhino 155

5 ASM, flamer/handflamer, Las/Plas 170

5 ASM, flamer/handflamer, Las/Plas 170

Las/AC Pred 135

Las/AC Pred 135

Las/AC Pred 135

Total: 1750

 

:D

[1Drop]

AC/LC Predator for long range, Vindicator for horde.

 

With devs I think that 2 ML + 2 PC and combat squad and another way is 3 ML and 1 LC, the 1 LC is for the signum.

[liberate_tutame]

Yeah, agree with you on the melta problem. It hasn't been too much of a problem for me as I think the Scout move allows you to shift your deployment significantly when facing melta wagons.

 

I'd also dispute the Ass-cannon being primarily anti-tank. They are certainly a terror to Eldar who get insta-killed by them, but what makes the TL-Asscannon so great is that you are usually hitting with the 4 S6 rending shots. Dare I ask for the mathhammer shooting at T3, T4 and T6 models between both the Dakka and the Baal?

 

 

Las/AC Pred 135

Las/AC Pred 135

Las/AC Pred 135

Total: 1750

 

:)

 

Oh Zhukov you cad!

[Zhukov]

Ya, will do math on stuff tomorrow, going out now so no time.

[Black Memories]

Probably not the answer the OP is asking for, but the best Anti-tank my armies take are my multi melta attack bikes. Bar-none they are the absolute best anti-tank units i have access to. AC/LC preds are ok, except that I've had one heavy flamer glanced to hell and back and really, stuff just loses its luster when that happens. Even when not being glanced down, I've found my AC/LC pred is almost always relegated to light-transport killing. Anything Av13 or tougher is better left to melta weaponry.

 

I suppose in reality a big reason I don't take AC/LC preds is because of how dominant TLLC razorbacks can be in the exact same role. Yes you lose 2 guns but Moving 12 inches every turn is pretty effective and on top of that they house a scoring unit and potentially another anti-tank weapon if you take one. I've found my razorbacks are also rarely paid attention to due to the threats of other units in my list, so they tend to always be firing.

 

I'd also highly recommend the stormraven as an assault transport, and it it isn't shot down then as a gunship that absolutely explodes heads. That thing is incredible.

 

Devastators I tend to waffle back and forth on. Generally if they aren't sucessful it probably isn't their fault. I've deployed them badly or whatever the case is. I had them redeem themselves last night, absolutely pounding my opponent after they had been shelved for months for hideously underperforming. If the devs are on, they're on. If they're off, its a big point sink. Also I don't know why everyone takes a priest in their devs. I run 10 devs with 2 PC and 2 LC, combat squad both and sit them in cover somewhere. They can take a tremendous beating before going down. If that's the case generally my assault forces are absolutely screaming down my opponent's throat, and the devs are usually left standing afterwards anyways. Devs work best, in my experience, in Hybrid or DoA armies that have a heavy assault component. The dual threat of static powerful shooting and aggressive assault really seems to make opponents make critical choices. In my experience the more critical choices you force in a game, the better your chances of winning are.

[DreadLift]

the hardest BA list i ever played against had 3 vindis followed by tech priest with jump pack.Those licifer pattern engines makes BA vindicators a real threat to just about everything.

 

 

See now you have me thinking about something else lol. Oh bugger :cuss

[HERO]

the hardest BA list i ever played against had 3 vindis followed by tech priest with jump pack.Those licifer pattern engines makes BA vindicators a real threat to just about everything.

 

 

See now you have me thinking about something else lol. Oh bugger :)

 

Do you own any Vindicators? AC/LC Preds? Or Devs?

 

I would go with whatever you own first :) Give out the configs we talked about a try, then buy you next favorite one.