Heavy support Choices

[SamaNagol]

Vindicators are absolutely godlike

[DreadLift]

the hardest BA list i ever played against had 3 vindis followed by tech priest with jump pack.Those licifer pattern engines makes BA vindicators a real threat to just about everything.

 

 

See now you have me thinking about something else lol. Oh bugger :)

 

Do you own any Vindicators? AC/LC Preds? Or Devs?

 

I would go with whatever you own first ;) Give out the configs we talked about a try, then buy you next favorite one.

 

No I just own a Baal Pred. However my gaming friends are very laid back and I am sure in our casual games I could proxy/pretend something until I make my mind up. Hell I used a plastic pot as a dreadnought once with a face drawn on it. The Devs I can make easy as I have the bitz and I will admit to being a fan of the Jawaballs blog. So my plan is to pretend test stuff and while I see how that pans out I have just ordered a landraider to tide me over as a centre piece for my whole army.

 

Thanks again guys. (See no one mentioned a raider and as heated as this thread has become I just had to throw it

In)

[knife&fork]

5 ASM; melta/infernus/LC, Rhino 155

5 ASM; melta/infernus/LC, Rhino 155

5 ASM; melta/infernus/LC, Rhino 155

The rest I agree with, but this part seems like a waste (or at least sub-optimal use) of points.

 

 

Am I the only one who likes whirlwinds? People think it's an overpriced heavy bolter or flamer in a fragile rhino chassis. What they forget is that it's a flamer or heavy bolter that can fire from turn one, doesn't need line of sight, cause pinning and most importantly stays well out of melta range. Not to mention that unlike the heavy bolter a missed shot ends up somewhere instead of disappearing in thin air. With FNP being so common you can just continue to shell everything for the entire game without worrying about scatter, unlike the vindicator :).

[Alexonian]

Vindicators and stormravens all the way! although some times I use Devastators for plasma spam lists :D

[Zhukov]

5 ASM; melta/infernus/LC, Rhino 155

5 ASM; melta/infernus/LC, Rhino 155

5 ASM; melta/infernus/LC, Rhino 155

The rest I agree with, but this part seems like a waste (or at least sub-optimal use) of points.

Care to eloraborate?

 

I'm seeing a double melta MSU squad in a fast vehicle which has some combat capibility and which performance drasticly increases with the help of Priests ;)

 

Ya, larger squads are more capable in combat of course, but that costs you more points while it also doesn't increase your amount of threats on the field nor their AT capability. (or very marginal)

[Black Memories]

Zhukov, I do agree with some of your statements about effective melta range. A melta gun on ASM troops or in a rhino has an 18" effective melta range which makes it a LOT more dangerous to the Baals. Also because of the close proximity it's a lot easier to flank to the side of the Baal and pop a strength 8 or lower shot into the side and at least glance the Baals into oblivion so they're useless. That's a problem I have with them (though mine is likely part user error as well).

 

What's worth pointing out math wise is that the twin linked assault cannon has over double the chance to wound an MEQ unit without rending than an autocannon does.

 

Total wound probability from predator variants on MEQ units in cover:

 

AC/hb pred: 1.26

AC/LC pred: .92

Baal w/ HB/AC: 1.87

Baal w/ no HB: .989

 

The Baal is shockingly close with no HB to the AC/HB in infantry MEQ damage output even without rending being factored in. I'd imagine it's actually even close to the Dakka pred with rends.

 

Really honestly all of those suck against MEQ units now that I've done the math (yes I know mathhammer isn't everything, I've actually wiped out an entire long fang unit in 1 salvo from a Baal before, amazing rending rolls and bad saves). While I agree that the AC/LC pred is better against tougher targets, I'd have a hard time justifying taking a true dakka pred that wasn't a Baal. The big thing that I think you're somewhat ignoring is the versatility, as has been pointed out.

 

While a Baal and Dakka pred are relatively the same effectiveness against troop units (Baal being superior), when tasked to destroy a vehicle the Dakka pred is significantly weaker than the Baal, as you already agreed. This to me is significant in the scope of a match where some units may be required to perform a task you didn't originally intend for them to do in attempts to regain the reigns in the game. The Baal is a significantly stronger multi-purpose tank, and while it does cost more I think many people on this board tend to forget that value sometimes over-rides a 40-50 point expense. The scout move, potential out flanking, and effective anti-light infantry/anti-armor abilities of the Baal to me make it outshine the dakka pred at every turn, except being a bit closer to the enemy.

 

The reason I think dakka preds are not worth it for Blood Angels myself is because they take that heavy support slot and point costs away and are inferior to other predator variants at what they do. The AC/LC pred is much better anti-light armor, and the Baal is better at anti infantry but can also be VERY effective at anti armor (I've had one Baal scout move and kill an entire IG tank squadron, it was awesome). The dakka pred is fine if you just really like them, but I think that's really the only justification you can have to bring them over any other predator variant.

 

In case you're interested here's the glance/pen chances of the TLAC vs AC vs LC (I'm bored waiting on a package) against an armored vehicle in ascending order (10/11/12/13/14)

 

Glancing

 

AC: .88-.667-.44-.22-0

TLAC: 1.77-1.118-.59-.59-.39 .

LC: .667-.55-.44-.33-.22

TLLC: .889-.74-.59-.44-.29

 

Penetrating

 

AC: .667-.44-.22-0-0

TLAC: 1.118-.59-.59-.39-.19

LC: .55-.44-.33-.22-.11

TLLC: .74-.59-.44-.29-.14

 

Yeah so TLAC....pretty good vs armor. You can add up the predator variants yourself based on those probabilities. Suffice to say the dakka pred is basically wasting its shots firing at anything above armor 11, in my opinion. It will do no real damage for the most part. For what it's worth, however, I always feel like my TLAC never lives up the damage it's math says it should consistently produce. As someone else already said, the TLAC is extremely hit or miss when going after armor, at least from my experience.

 

Hopefully this helps in some way. I feel like sometimes seeing the probabilities of the different guns and their uses on the predators helps me visualize exactly how effective something can be in certain situations.

[Black Memories]

Care to eloraborate?

 

I'm seeing a double melta MSU squad in a fast vehicle which has some combat capibility and which performance drasticly increases with the help of Priests :lol:

 

Ya, larger squads are more capable in combat of course, but that costs you more points while it also doesn't increase your amount of threats on the field nor their AT capability. (or very marginal)

 

Not knife&fork, but..

 

Because without a razorback their versatility is majorly weakened. I'd agree that the 5 mans in the rhinos aren't as effective as razorbacks. They're cheaper sure but anything that opens those rhinos is going to kick the crap out of those 5 dudes, potentially before they even get to return attack. With the razorback, as you stated with the Baal vs Dakka pred scenarios, you don't HAVE to get close to the target, I find skirmishing around with them and then objective rushing at the end or sitting on a far off objective is a really good use for lasbacks.

 

Small assault units scream "distract the enemy from pounding me", not "send me to assault their force". At least to me.

 

Personally I'm not a fan of the entire first list you put out there, just because it would be terrible against most MEQ armies and my local meta is flooded with marine players. It has a lot of units so objective games would tend to be a bit closer, but I'd think it would struggle a lot in kill point games.

 

The second list is better because the ac/lc preds are more of a concern, but the speeders I feel like are a downgrade from attack bikes. I also think mephiston is the only scary unit in the second army that would take some serious attention. Again maybe I haven't seen you field it so I don't know what I'm talking about, but it doesn't stick out to me on paper as being hard to handle. A Vindi or two, switching back to attack bikes, and some TLLC razors instead of rhinos would make that second list a LOT scarier.

[Zhukov]

Hmm odd, I guess these kind of lists aren't accepted as being good on B&C maybe... Happens when you hang around on YTTH and 3++ all the time I guess. I'm afraid it will take a lot of time when I try to explain that ánd why these kind of lists work.

 

Some things already:

They're cheaper sure but anything that opens those rhinos is going to kick the crap out of those 5 dudes, potentially before they even get to return attack.

Same goes for Las/Plas: If you open those up the same thing happens.

 

I think it comes down to concepts like 'threat saturation' and 'board control'.

I move up 3 rhinos with 15 FnP Marines equiped with Meltas into midfield, with Mephy, while having fire support. What's ya gonna do? Meltas and Marines in CC simply kill things VERY effieciently compared to some shots at range (2 meltas in melta range > 2 lasscannon, 5 charging marines > shots at range), so are you going to focus on them? How easy is it to stop them while my ranged units fire at you?

 

About board control: 3 melta units and Mephy in midfield has much more consequences for your oppenent regarding his movement/target priority than having only ranged units.

 

You mention those small units not being able to handel tough stuff. That's true. However: It's an efficient setup, it really is. Now what does it mean when those foward, close ranged elements can't handle what I sent them at? Then those armies are even better at that. What does that mean? You outshoot them ;) Yes, even without those extra Razorbacks.

 

Again maybe I haven't seen you field it so I don't know what I'm talking about, but it doesn't stick out to me on paper as being hard to handle.

Not trying to sound rude or arrogant, but I'm afraid this is the case. When you are not familiar with these kind of armies then you simply dont understand them... They look deceivingly simple, or even weak, because they include lots of 'not so tough' targets. Compare them with other lists though, look how much obvious targets most lists have... Look how much beating other lists can take. Are you having key units in your army? Do you make target priority easy for your oppenent? Are many of your units only usefull against certain oppenents? Etc Etc.

 

And yes, I played with lists like this a lot, just with other armies. In the end they're so reliable that I rarely lose games with them and if I do it's because dice or me :cussing up.

[ServoBadger]

Here's what I have, and how well it's worked, mainly vs Orks:

 

2 Vindicators:

 

Potentially great, and back in 4th Ed they did excellent work against both Terminators and hordes. Trouble is, my usual opponents have been on the receiving end of them too often, so whenever they hit the table they become the priority target and get shot at until at least a weapon destroyed is rolled - after which they're ignored.

 

Devastator Squad:

 

The old mixed metal and plastic version. 1 ML, 1 LC, 1 PC, 1 HB. I run them in a squad of ten, combat squadded with the ML and LC in one combat squad and the PC and HB are in the other. Survivable even without a Priest due to the ablative bolter marines. Plus they can NEVER be stunned/shaken, which is a big thing. This actually works surprisingly well, but I haven't used them so much since the new Codex came out - not because they're any worse, but because I've usually spent my points before I get to the heavy support section.

 

Stormraven:

 

Great in theory. Never made it past turn one. ALWAYS shot down. Usually by Deffkoptas which turbo-boost in their scout move. Actually much more effective temping a Razorwing for my Dark Eldar army, which is really annoying.

 

Dreadnought:

 

A Black Reach version. Usually remains on the shelf, as I don't trust AV12 and the MM doesn't have enough range when you can only move 6". Has been useful in 1000pt games where the enemy hasn't brought enough ranged anti-tank, or power fists.

 

I've also temped Whirlwinds, which are hilarious against Orks. Hide behind a building and move over 6" each turn. Hard to shoot at and the odd suicidal Trukk mob that gets close is hitting on 6s.

 

As I'm now playing against Space Marines more, I'm considering either an AC/LC Predator or a TLLC/ML Dreadnought for long-range punch. For reliable anti-tank I still go for a squadron of three MM Attack Bikes, though.

[Black Memories]

I fight against small-squad razorspam type lists a lot, specifically BA ones. They never really worry me. I actually tend to lose very few units to them. I guess what I've found is my play style tends to rely on smaller more hardcore assault units that a list like that is kind of like water on the rocks against. Just bounces off my stuff. I know they beat down certain types of armies, its totally possible that I just don't see their strength because my army type does not seem to be one that struggles against razorspam lists.

 

I agree with the plas/las razorback idea of not being tough, but again what I said there was I'm not using them as a forward element, they always stay back. I use assault squads/tactical squads or just some other strong assault unit as a forward element or an objective contester. Essentially if my lazorback gets popped, the guys are almost never lost because they're so far away from the fight its tough to bother going for them.

 

I get what you're saying about threat saturation though. I think we're just at two extremes. I tend to use deathstar-type threat saturations all over the place and you seem to favor a lot of lesser threats. Both have their place.

[Deschenus Maximus]

Gotta give the thumbs up to Dakka preds. Not as killy as a Baal, but not as expensive either.

 

But for the OP's list, AC/LC pred seems to fit the bill.

[knife&fork]

Hmm odd, I guess these kind of lists aren't accepted as being good on B&C maybe... Happens when you hang around on YTTH and 3++ all the time I guess.

 

Not trying to sound rude or arrogant, but I'm afraid this is the case. When you are not familiar with these kind of armies then you simply dont understand them... They look deceivingly simple, or even weak, because they include lots of 'not so tough' targets.

 

You should hang around B&C more, 3++ is not a very good blog for anything one could consider "advanced".

 

We're talking a tournament list here, taking weak units for no good reason is a waste of points. Having all of your units kick ass makes for even better target saturation.

 

 

5 ASM; melta/infernus/LC, Rhino 155

5 ASM; melta/infernus/LC, Rhino 155

5 ASM; melta/infernus/LC, Rhino 155

 

There's some very easy tweaks that'll optimize these squads while not changing the role or points value at all. Can you spot them?

[Zhukov]

Hahaha, now that's some arrogance and bluff at the same time; I love it! :D You take a rather big risk though as you put yourselves in a bit of a vulnerable position. The thing I could not help but laugh about a little is that you mention that B&C is a better place for tournament related things compared to 3++ hah. I mean, B&C is known for it's painting stuff and all, but as a competitive place? Not so much. But who knows, I'll keep checking the BA forum now as you could be right. (I mean 3++ isn't a truly competitive blog either, lets face it. And I say that while I'm a writer myself)

 

What you say about those unit setups makes no sense though... Actually you don't say anything about them and that's the problem.

 

So I'm afraid I'm indeed not seeing the 'easy tweaks' you're talking about, simply because there is nothing wrong with those squad setups. Surprise me I'd say, you almost make me a bit curious ;) My guess? Hmm... maybe... you want to change them to melta/powerfist/TL-HF Razor? I hope not, cause then I'd be dissapointed in you and I hate people dissapointing me.

[shatter]

I've used 3 HK whirlies for many games and think they're absolutely awesome value for points. I struggle to remember a game where they performed poorly.

[MadMonk]

I normally run two AC/LC pred with a Dev Squad with 4 missile lanchers with a Raz Las Plas Combo. That combo works out very well. I stick the Dev in cover and shoot the missle at one target and have the preds shoot other and Razor back pick off other target. Plus if any one wants to pick on dev's they can just jump in the Razor and beat feet 18 inchs away :)

[knife&fork]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

They might be more popular if you could take a squad. I like them too but it's hard to justify them gobbling up all the HS slots.

 

I mean, B&C is known for it's painting stuff and all, but as a competitive place? Not so much. But who knows, I'll keep checking the BA forum now as you could be right. (I mean 3++ isn't a truly competitive blog either, lets face it. And I say that while I'm a writer myself)

 

What you say about those unit setups makes no sense though... Actually you don't say anything about them and that's the problem.

 

There's a lot of stuff going on here, ask the right people (and the right questions) and you'll get lots of good advice on list optimization.

 

Next up, unit setup.

5 ASM; melta/infernus/LC, Rhino 155

 

Ok, let's just get this one over with. Why pick a rhino instead of razorback? They are both fast, have the same access points, have enough space for your unit + an IC and none of them are assault vehicles. The RB lacks a firing point but you get a heavy weapon instead of the stormbolter. If you think razor spam is boring or lame I respect that, but from a competitive standpoint I don't think the rhino makes a lot of sense here.

 

Now for the sergeant. You pick the lightning claw, good choice for a small squad. On a 2A MEQ it gives you a slight advantage vs other MEQ compared to a regular PW. Even better against T5 and up. On the other hand you give him the infernus pistol, we pay a premium on it because they can give you the extra attack in cc, which you negated by taking a LC. You already have a ton of melta and other ranged AT in your list, and how many times can you expect him to use the infernus in a normal game? Replace it with a combi melta and you have the same range as the other melta in that squad as well as the 5 points to upgrade the rhino to a RB of your choice.

[Firedrake28]

Now for the sergeant. You pick the lightning claw, good choice for a small squad. On a 2A MEQ it gives you a slight advantage vs other MEQ compared to a regular PW. Even better against T5 and up. On the other hand you give him the infernus pistol, we pay a premium on it because they can give you the extra attack in cc, which you negated by taking a LC. You already have a ton of melta and other ranged AT in your list, and how many times can you expect him to use the infernus in a normal game? Replace it with a combi melta and you have the same range as the other melta in that squad as well as the 5 points to upgrade the rhino to a RB of your choice.

 

Assault Marines can't take combi-weapons.

[JamesI]

Now for the sergeant. You pick the lightning claw, good choice for a small squad. On a 2A MEQ it gives you a slight advantage vs other MEQ compared to a regular PW. Even better against T5 and up. On the other hand you give him the infernus pistol, we pay a premium on it because they can give you the extra attack in cc, which you negated by taking a LC. You already have a ton of melta and other ranged AT in your list, and how many times can you expect him to use the infernus in a normal game? Replace it with a combi melta and you have the same range as the other melta in that squad as well as the 5 points to upgrade the rhino to a RB of your choice.

knife+fork, I'll point out that combi-weapons are not a legal option for Assault Sergeants.

[knife&fork]

Now for the sergeant. You pick the lightning claw, good choice for a small squad. On a 2A MEQ it gives you a slight advantage vs other MEQ compared to a regular PW. Even better against T5 and up. On the other hand you give him the infernus pistol, we pay a premium on it because they can give you the extra attack in cc, which you negated by taking a LC. You already have a ton of melta and other ranged AT in your list, and how many times can you expect him to use the infernus in a normal game? Replace it with a combi melta and you have the same range as the other melta in that squad as well as the 5 points to upgrade the rhino to a RB of your choice.

knife+fork, I'll point out that combi-weapons are not a legal option for Assault Sergeants.

 

Ah, rushed that one a bit too much. My bad.

 

Still think the infernus is superfluous in the context of that list though.

 

EDIT: To keep this thread from going any further OT I took myself the liberty of creating a thread in the army list section.

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=230686

 

See you there

[HERO]

Whatever you do, make sure you don't take an all mech list.

 

Gotta have some bodies in there jumping around so your opponents don't accuse of you being a razorback spammer.

[Firedrake28]

Whatever you do, make sure you don't take an all mech list.

 

Gotta have some bodies in there jumping around so your opponents don't accuse of you being a razorback spammer.

 

You're joking.

 

Right?

 

(Please be joking)

[Crynn]

Now for the sergeant. You pick the lightning claw, good choice for a small squad. On a 2A MEQ it gives you a slight advantage vs other MEQ compared to a regular PW. Even better against T5 and up. On the other hand you give him the infernus pistol, we pay a premium on it because they can give you the extra attack in cc, which you negated by taking a LC. You already have a ton of melta and other ranged AT in your list, and how many times can you expect him to use the infernus in a normal game? Replace it with a combi melta and you have the same range as the other melta in that squad as well as the 5 points to upgrade the rhino to a RB of your choice.

knife+fork, I'll point out that combi-weapons are not a legal option for Assault Sergeants.

 

Ah, rushed that one a bit too much. My bad.

 

Still think the infernus is superfluous in the context of that list though.

 

EDIT: To keep this thread from going any further OT I took myself the liberty of creating a thread in the army list section.

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=230686

 

See you there

 

 

All this talk just leads to 'take combis (which you can't) and razors' hehe a little bit of a let down. A razorback is fine except that you have to jump out to use the meltas which is what the squad is for. also while the melta pistol is short range, if the melta is in half the pistol still gets a shot with str8 ap1 which is still pretty effective against a lot of targets. having a pistol makes neither the pistol or the LC less effective. This is because on a sargant in most cases, a lightning claw with 2-3 attacks is better than a power weapons with 3-4, so the LC is still generally a better option and from this I can see that zhukov has at least a reasonable idea of list optimization.

 

Back on topic,

 

Vindicators are generally only usefull against average players. Any smart player can spread their units which makes the vindicator rather ineffective. Las Autocannon pred for me thanks.

 

Regards,

 

Crynn

[AbusePuppy]

You're joking.

 

Right?

 

(Please be joking)

 

If you don't allow your opponent's biases of what is acceptable to control your army building choices, you're a bad person and will go to Gamer Hell (Wyoming.)

[Zhukov]

Fail Knife&Fork.

 

+1 to Crynn.

 

Oh and Knife&Fork, what on earth is that thread doing there? You are obviously not qualified to pull the stuff off you did (the arrogance and implying *I* don't get it) and now again do (making a thread with my list in the list review?!): Who do you think you are?

 

And lol Puppy =D

[knife&fork]

All this talk just leads to 'take combis (which you can't) and razors' hehe a little bit of a let down. A razorback is fine except that you have to jump out to use the meltas which is what the squad is for.

 

 

Vindicators are generally only usefull against average players. Any smart player can spread their units which makes the vindicator rather ineffective. Las Autocannon pred for me thanks.

 

 

 

Disembark and fire would be most effective way to make use of our fast vehicles. Specially if you insist on the infernus since it's 2" just from the firing point to the front of the chassis, almost 3" if you've added a dozerblade or ramming spikes. We could go into more detail, but that's for another thread.

 

 

The vindicator is still a threat, fast ones even more so. They are slightly less scary now compared to 4th ed, but there's a good reason they end up on the top of peoples target priorities, it's nothing something you can just ignore. The list of units they excel at taking out that other less expensive and more reliable options can't is rather short though.

 

 

Oh and Knife&Fork, what on earth is that thread doing there? You are obviously not qualified to pull the stuff off you did (the arrogance and implying *I* don't get it) and now again do (making a thread with my list in the list review?!): Who do you think you are?

Why do you get so hostile and defensive all the time? Check the attitude at the door and chill out. The thread is there because I didn't want to derail the thread any further.