Heavy support Choices

[Zhukov]

Disembark and fire would be most effective way to make use of our fast vehicles.

Explain please as you can't get out when moving further then 12".

 

But I'll tell you what the real difference is: 18" flat-out means that you're closer to the oppenent more quickly and in the case of armies like Mechdar then it means they have much more trouble staying away from you.

In the case of pitched deployement an 18" move is often enough to not *needing* you to disembark the next turn: 6" move and then firing form the hatch will do.

 

Why do you get so hostile and defensive all the time? Check the attitude at the door and chill out. The thread is there because I didn't want to derail the thread any further.

Look back at your own comments please. You litterally attacked the credibility of me and whole 3++ and even attempted to make me look like an ignorant nooby by your remarks as 'can you spot them?'. And now when you failed you ask me why I'm hostile? You chose to play a game with me and lost, I warned you when I said that you putted yourself in a vulnerable position.

[liberate_tutame]

in the case of armies like Mechdar then it means they have much more trouble staying away from you.

6" move and then firing form the hatch will do.

 

Uh... what?

 

I agree with Knife and Fork on the weakness of the list. It isn't as efficient as it could be. The Rhino's are entirely unlike Razorbacks in that they have to get close (closer to danger too) and are not as effective as other mech armies in that they are trapped in their metal box. As you said, you shouldn't be leaving a 5 man RAS out after the 12" move, they are too exposed. So you are stuck with your 6" move, not great, especially when you have such short range weapons. Unlike sisters who have faith points and numbers for survival, and who are rapid firing bolters getting out of their vehicles as well, or Guard who have melta spam and redundancy.

The reason 5 man squads in las/plas razorback or Tl-assault cannon razorbacks work is because they have a shooty range of 36" (assault cannon) or 60" (lascannon) thanks to fast. You are only using your fast ability for a 6" boost that first turn. Which, while handy, does not really take full advantage of a vehicles Fast rule. Las/plas is especially effective because it negates one of the results on the vehicle damage table as well as giving you the option of range and allowing you to play very defensively against an army like grey knights which I feel this list would have real problems with.

 

As I see it, you have two routes you can pick. You can keep the 'in your face' design of the army, keep the Rhinos as is and drop the AC/las preds, take some furiosos in Drop-pods (I think three is the golden number for drop-pods, but one would be helpful) fragnought or bloodfists with magna-grapple is fine. Drop the land speeders and take Attack bikes. As someone said earlier they are the best anti-tank unit we have. They also function as excellent tarpit units in a pinch.

 

The other route is the las/plas Razorbacks, probably another two, meltas in the squads are fine if you really want them. You can keep Mephy as a powerful counter-punch but you can always take a Libby. There are a few other options with this route...

 

Also 15 points for a S3 flamer and an extra attack in close combat? Not worth it. I believe the optimal set-up for the Razorback squads is nothing but a flamer, regardless of what weapon it is using.

[JamesI]

Ok, lets pull back on the attitude. This discussion has moved too far from the topic and lets get back to preferred heavy support choices and not the quality of discussion at 3++ or other off topic stuff.

[Zhukov]

Sure James, but I do gotta reply to this post Liberate_tutame; that's oke right as it is BA related? You can split it into a seperate thread but I don't think that's needed.

 

Don't take the things out of context Liberate. Those 2 are seperate things:

-Against Mechdar a 12" move with a rhino in turn 1 means they can just move 6" back while staying out of range of your rhino while keeping firing themselves. 18" here means that they have to move further away and there losing their ability to shoot with everything or they even have to move flat-out.

-Against armies like IG the 18" move means you're so close that you can stay in your rhino next turn or get out (or are forced to when they blow it up) and then walk + melta + potential charges.

 

Also, just because in *general* staying in your box is nice, you do want to get out sometimes. Options, remember that word.

 

You are only using your fast ability for a 6" boost that first turn. Which, while handy, does not really take full advantage of a vehicles Fast rule.

Fallacy. Effective units are effective units. Taking full advantage should only be a goal when it gives you a better performance in the end. You shouldn't make use of a rule just to make use of it. In this case the units in rhinos exactly do what I want them to do. Las/Plas or AC razor units are an entirely different unit.

The Fast rule will still prove valuable btw if (some of) your rhinos stay alive, tank shocking/blocking and stuff you know. Or rushing to an objective later in the game.

 

and are not as effective as other mech armies in that they are trapped in their metal box.

One gotta ask himself if this is relevant (good list is a good list, even if it would use some units setups which other armies does better, it's *always* about the total list)

Even then I question this: SW get's a 5 man squad with melta for 115 points, normally joined by a wolfguard with combi at least, making it 138 in total. 153 if you want a Claw in here too, making the cost equal.

1 more guy, 2 real melta shots but 1 is 1 use. BA gets fast and double melta. Wolves get bolters and counterattack, you get the option for Priests. (which are an efficient force multiplier)

Just different, one is not better than the other. Different army and it plays different.

Comparing with Vanilla is even more trickier, closest would be 10 man, ML + melta + combimelta in rhino. They combat squad leaving 1 ML back and send the 2x melta shot unit forward. Again: Different army, different case.

 

against an army like grey knights which I feel this list would have real problems with.

It doesn't, I know exactly what Grey Knights are capable of and what not. In general they either they play MSU in Psybacks, in which case Mephy (which they trouble with shooting down) excells and in which case you beat them when charging. Las/Plas Preds shoot down razors, try to get Melta against their dreads.

In case of bigger squad they got less vehicles so you'll De-Mech them more easily while they have less units themselves which limits their ability to take out enough units of you a turn. (shooting with 2 psycannons at 1 Speeders? Not really efficient for example)

Alternatively it's Purifier spam, where each casualty hurts them more and where they almost play with a 150 points deadweight in their list. Unless they play with bigger units including halberds, you'll still win the close combat game. (which is logical as they win the shooty game)

Oh I'm not saying my list will auto-own GK lists btw, it's balanced, as it should be. Good armies Vs good armies you know. I also never said my list is optimised (it isn't, this is what I about like, might chance some minors things though) I also never asked for critics on my list, you asked if I played that list with the 3 Dakka Preds in which I said 'no, this is what I play'.

 

Disagree with all the things you say afterwards. Well, I might be better off with changing the Las/Plas razors to more agressive setups too, but I'll see that myself. Las/AC Preds compliment such a list fine btw, no Dreads needed.

 

Also 15 points for a S3 flamer and an extra attack in close combat?

? It's 10 points and he's got no option for a combiflamer or anything, so I'm not choosing to keep that attack: the weapon does that automaticly. However if you're interested, current version of my lists hasn't got these handflamers anymore.

 

If you've got any more questions you can always PM me (:

[Brother Nathan]

Vindicators for the win! actually they are the only heavy choice ive ran. my multi melta dread hasnt been out this ed(hes now a furiso most of the time) and my devistator squads have only been finished but likewise havent seen table. my baals are now fast so dosntcount. and i dont like the raven(i willl get one someday but long time of and it wil be getting a heavy facelift) and i have baals so dont need predators. for me the vindicator brings th most to the table, both with a demmo cannon thats fast so is effectively 36 inch ranged and can keep up with my baals as they only move 6 inches a turn usually so they can shoot(with scout and smoke;))only problem is i have the old vindicator model and i hate it. think ill eventually get a new one and move this one to my ironwarriors....

[DreadLift]

Lol feels like I created a monster :D

 

Anywho I bought myself a Pred and a Godhammer is in the post. I will let you know how I get on. It obvious I am not as competitive as you guys and more of a casual player, however I have read all your posts and gained some great insight dashed with a little confusion. Math-hammer tends to make my head explode and I avoid it at all costs as I feel it takes a little fun out of the whole thing.

 

Cheers Guys

[knife&fork]

Anywho I bought myself a Pred and a Godhammer is in the post.

 

Get the redeemer/crusader upgrade sprue. Well worth it.

 

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/...odId=prod80002a

[DreadLift]

Anywho I bought myself a Pred and a Godhammer is in the post.

 

Get the redeemer/crusader upgrade sprue. Well worth it.

 

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/...odId=prod80002a

 

will do, I planed on magnetising it anyway for ease of transport ^_^

[Black Memories]

I've actually found the dudes sitting on top with the meltas are the real pain in transport, not the sponsons. May want to magnetize him or make him detachable at very least. I'm prone to gluing things I shouldn't.

[SamaNagol]

Yeh, you don't need to glue anything on the Land Raider which is optional or a sponson/turret. Far easier for transport and better for longevity of use to magnetise or just leave them loose. Multi-Meltas, T/L Heavy Bolters/Assault Cannons and Sponsons especially.

[toaae]

I don't feel like reading the whole topic, so I'll just post like the stuff I'm about to write is new and refreshing.

 

 

For me, my heavy support often features a devastator squad and/or a predator.

 

I run my devastators as a 10 man squad, with 2 Heavy Bolters and 2 Missile Launchers. I often combat squad them, though when I don't, they still work well as one squad. I like the unit cause it's cheap (210 points in all), and adds a strong long-range support element to my armies.

 

The pred is the great Autocannon/Lascannons variant. It's an effective anti-tank unit that doesn't cost too many points.

[sp4rky]

I used to run a Devastator squad, but I found them all a bit static (I run fully Mechanised apart from some scouts).

 

Now I run a Predator Destructor with Lascannon sponsons which costs pretty much the same as the Dev squad but can shark around objectives blasting away until, at the last minute, driving flat-out to contest if needed.

 

I plan on adding a second Predator as soon as possible just to give my opponents more armour to deal with.

 

 

In the OP's 1250 point list, he is also fairly Mech'd up so I would recommend tanks over devastator squads to possibly take some fire away from the Razor squads.