nemesis weapons

[shan vener]

hey guys i'm currently in prgress of planning my army and units and want some opinions.

is it worth it to give every PAGK at least a halberd considering it's under 10 points per model and the sword doesn't help them at all. here's an example of what i mean

 

EXAMPLE SQUAD

grey knight strike squad of 10, 2 psilencers, 7 halberds, justicar w/ master crafted daemon, psybolt ammunition

 

so would it be better to spend the 35 or so points to lose the swords or should I keep them

[number6]

I don't think halberds on strikeknights are an efficient use of points. I've acutally used fully halberded-out strikers and interceptors during early playtests with the new codex (all I had were my metal PAGK models, and I played them 100% WYSIWYG), and I discovered it was pretty well a waste of points. Strikeknights (and Interceptors) just aren't combat units. They're a bit better than most Troops -- and halberds make them slightly better than that -- but any halfway decent enemy assault unit (and let's not even talk about enemy dedicated assault units!) -- can punch their faces in pretty easily.

 

Strikeknights are only 4 pts stronger than basic Marines. :lol: Seriously, that's about how much better they are. Which is to say: yes, better. But not by much.

 

Spending points trying to make Strikers and Interceptors combat units would be better spent just getting yourself real combat units. Or further upgrading the combat units you already are taking.

[BrotherWasted]

4pts stronger? Not sure where you derive that logic from.

 

Keep the swords and put a hammer on your Justicar. The sword is a force weapon and that is all the help your squad needs. While Mathhammer may say that a 10-man squad will only kill 2.197 models (based on 2 psycannons, 7 swords and a hammer), it's far from reality. No models with 1 base attack should be getting weapon upgrades aside from Interceptors, it's too expensive.

[number6]

4pts stronger? Not sure where you derive that logic from.

Basic Space Marine Tac models are x pts apiece. Strikers are (x+4) pts apiece. :lol:

[shan vener]

lets check that math. remember nemesis weapons=force weapons=power weapons

 

 

GK squad with halberds on charge fighting BA assault marines (assume hammer hand worked)

14 halberd attacks. 7 hit. 4 or 5 BA die

psilencer knights attacks. 4 attacks. 2 hit. 2 wounds. 1 die

BA strike back (strike at lower initiative)

10 attacks. 5 hit. 3 hit. 1 die

Justicar strikes

3 attacks. 2 hit. 2 wound. 2 die.

sergeant strikes

2 attacks. 1 hit. 1 wound. 1 die.

 

(this is based against one of my BA assault squads, 2 flamers, sarge w/ power fist)

 

TOTAL CASUALTIES

GK LOSSES 2

BA LOSSES 7 or 8

 

seems worth it to me

 

(had to edit did the math wrong)

[TyrionTheImp]

Here's the thing about Strike Squads:

 

Against things they can already beat (most other Troops, non melee specialists), they don't need upgrades to soundly beat them.

 

Against things they can't already beat (assault specialists, etc) it wouldn't matter if they had those upgrades anyways.

 

Strike Squads are for shooting anyways, leave the Close Combat to Purifiers, Death Cult Assassin Warbands, and MAYBE Terminators.

 

As for a run down of each NFW:

 

Swords are great on HQ's with an Iron Halo, you get a 3+ in CC, the time when you most need an invulnerable save.

 

Halberds should be on all Terminators simply for the fact they're free. Difference between 5++ and 4++ is minor, but the difference between I4 and I6 is huge. Purifiers can also take them because they're cheap.

 

Daemonhammers should only be added in if points are open onto Justicars, Strike Squads can benefit because it helps against things that they otherwise wouldn't be able to hurt. Obviously terminators get them for free so giving one to them isn't a problem either.

 

Falchions shouldn't be modeled onto anything until after the FAQ. If they're only +1 attack, they aren't particularly useful, if they're +2 attacks, it might not hurt to put these on Purifiers or perhaps a single pair in Strike Squads to make up for the loss of attacks through Special Weapons. Terminators should NEVER have them IMHO, just not worth it.

 

The Warding Stave is interesting, I see little use for one, and they're so expensive. Maybe on IC's that don't have Iron Halos? Not sure.

[Inquisitor Fox]

I was considering warding staves for librarians and apothecaries. Otherwise... meh.. I'd rather skewer things quicker. A dead enemy can't attack you after all.

 

Of the other weapons, I'm prone to favoring a single hammer and a slew of halberds. I hate not getting to roll due to being out initiatived. I've won more Warhammer Fantasy fights back when chargers always got to go first (my Brettonians cried when they have to strike in init order now) and the principle is the same in 40K. Hit first, hit hard, leave none alive to hit back.

 

Personally I find the Force Sword undesirable, and falchions as well (I'd rather use a bucket o' dice on a shooting round than a close combat one). Your mileage may vary.

[IamCaboose]

Yes but without the halberds you're only likely to lose one more model for many less points. I'm pretty sure the math is right, but someone should probably double check it.

 

GK

Swords

14 swing

7 hit

4.6666 die, we'll say 5

 

Psilencers

4 swing

2 hit

1.3333 wound

.4443 unsaved wounds, so more than likely no wound

 

Hammer

3 swings

1.5 hit, we'll say 2

1.2499 wounds, so 1

 

BA

Normal

14 swing back

7 hit

3.5 wound

1.1665 unsaved wounds, 1 dies

 

Flamers

2 swing back

1 hits

.5 wounds

.1666 unsaved wounds, nobody dies

 

Fist

2 swings

1 hit

.8333 wounds, 1 dies

 

Caboose

[DarKHaZZ13]

lets check that math. remember nemesis weapons=force weapons=power weapons

 

(assume hammer hand worked)

 

Never make assumptions that are positive. If it comes to a 50/50 situation, or something that can fail, take it as a given it will fail.

An good tactician always plans for the worst case scenario.

 

I can't be bothered to math hammer this, but what will the result be with ahmmerhand taken out of the equation?

Worth figuring out, so you can compare the overall results and make a better decision on which works out best?

 

 

Personally I'm weilding halberds....on pretty much everything...purley because my metals have them, and I don't really want to hack them apart and fit them with anything else.

Laziness = winner

[Gentlemanloser]

Strikeknights are only 4 pts stronger than basic Marines. Seriously, that's about how much better they are. Which is to say: yes, better. But not by much.

 

The arguements, er discussions, I have about this with our Marine players. :D

 

They *cannot* see past getting a Storm Bolter (over a Bolter), a Power Weapon and the chance to be S5 for just 4 points as anything other than;

 

"ZOMG Uber! Your basic troops have made basic Marines redundant, and there's no way we can compare"

 

And really, 4 points for a better bolter, Power Weapon and/or ID or S5 is a trade *anyone* would make. ;)

 

Oh and Deep Strike as well ;)

[shan vener]

allright i'll check my math same situation but without hammer hand (round up in all situations)

 

GK charge

14 attacks

7 hit. 4 wound. 4 die

 

BA strike back

10 attacks

5 hit. 3 wound. 1 die

 

GK special weaponiers (correct word?)

4 attacks

2 hit. 1 wound. no deaths

 

Justicar

3 attacks

2 hit. 2 wound. 2 die

 

BA sarge

2 attacks

1 hit. 1 wound. 1 die

 

TOTAL CASUALTIES

GK LOSSES 2

BA LOSSES 6

[shan vener]

while i'm at it lets check without halberds, still rounding up (no hammerhand)

 

GK charge

14 attacks

7 hit. 4 wound. 4 die

 

BA attack back

16 attacks

8 hit. 4 wound. 2 die

 

GK special weaponiers

4 attacks

2 hit. 1 wound. no deaths

 

justicar

3 attacks

2 hit. 2 wound 2 die.

 

BA sarge

2 attacks

1 hit. 1 wound. 1 dies

 

TOTAL CASUALTIES

GK LOSSES 3 (strike at same I cost you another knight)

BA LOSSES 6

 

so it seems a cheap upgrade saved you a knight

[Impactwinter]

while i'm at it lets check without halberds, still rounding up (no hammerhand)

 

GK charge

14 attacks

7 hit. 4 wound. 4 die

 

BA attack back

16 attacks

8 hit. 4 wound. 2 die

 

GK special weaponiers

4 attacks

2 hit. 1 wound. no deaths

 

justicar

3 attacks

2 hit. 2 wound 2 die.

 

BA sarge

2 attacks

1 hit. 1 wound. 1 dies

 

TOTAL CASUALTIES

GK LOSSES 3 (strike at same I cost you another knight)

BA LOSSES 6

 

so it seems a cheap upgrade saved you a knight

 

This math is all well and good, but you've always assumed that the GKSS are on the charge, which is... not terribly likely against a BA jump infantry squad. try re-running these numbers (with and without Halberds) with the GKSS in cover getting assaulted by the BA, and you'll see a very different story.

 

The numbers I've run lead me to leave the halberds at home on strike squads, give em' psybolts and shoot like there's no tomorrow; If they get assaulted, they're gonna get a bloody nose and they're gonna live or die based on the raw load out, which as others have said is enough to discourage other generalists troops from assaulting you.

 

on purifiers, different story: more attacks and cleansing flame make cheaper halbedrs a steal!

[DarKHaZZ13]

Impactwinter is on my line fo thinking....it is a general overall perspective were after.

 

But using the maths shan vener has done already, but putting the charge on the other foot, It is more than likley that the additional Initiative will prove more valuable, not less, as it will result in less attacks flying at you.

 

 

 

+

Ps. cheers shan vener for the math hammer. :jaw:

[Impactwinter]

I'll have to check my rules but against non grenade equipped troops the GK (in cover) go first any how, and against the grenade'd variety its either simultaneous or at normal order. but its the lack of attacks that the GK are suffering being charged that really starts to show through, a few I6 are still a nice bonus to have, but if the attacker has double or more attacks its gonna get ugly. at +5pts a model that becomes an expensive ass-kicking.

[Angelis Mortis]

I think in the case of Nemesis weapons, "when in doubt, go with the halberd" is a safe bet all around. The higher initiative is really very valuable.

[shan vener]

i'm starting to hate all of you (not really) with all the math hammer going on my brain is stuck in math mode (math begins to get fun for me) so lets see a real world senario

 

GK STRIKE SQUAD

10 knights, 2 psycannons, 7 halberds, justicar w/ master crafted daemon hammer, psybolt ammunition. squad joined by a brotherhood champion with psybolt ammunition

 

BA ASSAULT SQUAD

10 marines, 2 flamers, sarge with power fist. squad joined by a priest w/ a jump pack/power weapon. and a chaplain w/ a jump pack

 

GK shooting

18 storm bolters shots

9 hit, 6 wounds

4 psycannons shots

3 hits, 3 wounds

9 wounds, 3 fail armor, 2 fail FNP, 1 marine dies, chaplain takes a wound

 

GK charge

14 halberd attacks

11 hit, 6 wound, 6 marines dead

 

Brotherhood champion

(lets say 4 attacks with sword storm)

4 hits, 3 wounds, 3 more marines dead (all thats left is the chaplain and the priest)

 

GK special weaponiers

4 attacks

3 hit, 2 wound, both saves made

 

BA sanguinary priest

3 attacks

2 hit, 1 wound, 1 dead knight

 

BA chaplain

3 attacks

2 hit, 1 wound, 1 dead knight

 

Justicar

3 attacks

3 hit, 3 wound, all enemy opposition destroyed

 

TOTAL CASUALTIES

GK LOSSES 2 psycannon knights

BA LOSSES entire squad

 

now let's try it with swords

 

GK shooting

18 storm bolters shots

9 hit, 6 wounds

4 psycannons shots

3 hits, 3 wounds

9 wounds, 3 fail armor, 2 fail FNP, 1 marine dies, chaplain takes a wound

 

GK charge

Brotherhood champion

(lets say 4 attacks with sword storm)

4 hits, 3 wounds, 3 marines dead

 

14 sword attacks

11 hit, 6 wound, 6 marines dead (get attacks back)

 

GK special weaponiers

4 attacks

3 hit, 2 wound, both saves made

 

BA sanguinary priest

3 attacks

2 hit, 1 wound, 1 dead knight

 

BA chaplain

3 attacks

2 hit, 1 wound, 1 dead knight

 

BA assault squad

12 attacks

6 hit, 3 wound, 1 fails armor save, 1 dead knight

(assault squad dies)

 

Justicar

3 attacks

3 hit, 3 wound, all enemy opposition destroyed

 

so by taking the halberds you destroy the entire BA unit while only having 2 knights die

and by taking swords you still destroy the unit but take another casualty

 

now realise a few things

1) this is not a cheap BA unit, I actually love to take these units, (elite chaplains :jaw: )

2) you killed the entire assault squad before he could make a single attack, thats scary to a BA player, trust me, i know

[Impactwinter]

Shan, you've still got the GK getting the charge bonus. I think thats where I'm stuck. any GK squad is badass enough that when they get those bonus attacks the hurt is coming down, but on the subsequent rounds... not so much. I want to see you work those numbers out where the GK are getting charged; its much uglier, with or without halberds

 

I'm in the same boat as others where I have a substantial stock of old metal PAGK with halberds. I think the halberd is arguably the best non-character force weapon option, but as an upgrade on SS I just don't think its automatic. If you have a use for a specialist built SS, thats cool. But I do think there are more points efficient ways to build that PAGK squad, namely as Purifiers. A grandmaster can even make them score.

[shan vener]

okay i just read the comments while i was working on my previous comment. you guys want MORE math hammer. *sigh* i'll go get my carpal tunnel braces.

[Impactwinter]

run those numbers monkey, DANCE!!

[DarKHaZZ13]

Hmm I see what you mean. But if IIRC grnades only work in cover (or is that 4th ed :tu:)

 

Either way, in the close combat dept your only other 'decent' option are falchions....which are 10 points each for 1 more attack.

The problem there is that gives you two attacks at the same time as the enemy. Against any decent unit, especially close combat orientated armies, this will result in a lot of casulties. (especially if the enemy is charging)

 

Yet if you spend 5 points less each, and strike at I6, you could deny the enemy X amount of attacks by killing X amount of models before they strike, which will more than offset the lack of extra attacks. (again especially if theyhave the charge)

 

out of the optional upgrades in close combat the halberd wins. no doubt.

 

But then I guess what we've got left is 'are halberds worth 5pts extra over the as they come load out'

Answer....probably. Consider it will save 1 marines for every 5 you take in each round of combat (going off shan vener's maths)

Thats saving 50 points per combat round for an overall cost of 50 points.

I'd say its worth it

 

 

But then again, I'm mainly feilding terminators. In which case, halberds are free = win.

[BrotherWasted]

My math was done without hammerhand, and was done without charge bonuses, fighting MEQ equivalents. I ran that through the Heresy Online Calculator and that was what I got.

[Impactwinter]

Hmm I see what you mean. But if IIRC grnades only work in cover (or is that 4th ed :P)

 

Either way, in the close combat dept your only other 'decent' option are falchions....which are 10 points each for 1 more attack.

The problem there is that gives you two attacks at the same time as the enemy. Against any decent unit, especially close combat orientated armies, this will result in a lot of casulties. (especially if the enemy is charging)

 

Yet if you spend 5 points less each, and strike at I6, you could deny the enemy X amount of attacks by killing X amount of models before they strike, which will more than offset the lack of extra attacks. (again especially if theyhave the charge)

 

out of the optional upgrades in close combat the halberd wins. no doubt.

 

But then I guess what we've got left is 'are halberds worth 5pts extra over the as they come load out'

Answer....probably. Consider it will save 1 marines for every 5 you take in each round of combat (going off shan vener's maths)

Thats saving 50 points per combat round for an overall cost of 50 points.

I'd say its worth it

 

 

But then again, I'm mainly feilding terminators. In which case, halberds are free = win.

 

I'm totally on board with all that, except the point that the halberd upgrades are still worth in on Strike Squads. I'm not adamantly against that, just not convinced

Termy troops FTW for me; if only for the psych-out factor of "holy :tu:, troops with 2+ save? that's messed up."

[DarKHaZZ13]

My math was done without hammerhand, and was done without charge bonuses, fighting MEQ equivalents.

 

Basically:

 

7 GKSS w/ Swords: 7 Attacks, 3.5 hits, 1.75 Wounds, no armor saves

2 GKSS w/ Psycannons: 2 Attacks, 1 Hit, 0.5 Wounds, 0.167777 wounds

1 Justicar w/ Hammer: 2 Attacks, 1 Hit, .5 Wounds, no armor saves

 

That is the math, but of course, reality is different and for a basic troop squad, having 7 power weapons + Hammer, with access to Counter-Attack is quite nasty.

 

My point was that DESPITE mathhammer saying you won't kill jack even with your force weapons, reality is different and you can often end up taking down 5 marines without even charging.

 

Even if you take down 1 that denies the enemy 2/3...which is better than 1/2 attacks against them and potential death in the first round right?

 

I'm totally on board with all that, except the point that the halberd upgrades are still worth in on Strike Squads. I'm not adamantly against that, just not convinced

Termy troops FTW for me; if only for the psych-out factor of "holy :tu:, troops with 2+ save? that's messed up."

 

 

Who needs deathwing :P

[BrotherWasted]

I'm not sure what you actually said there. Could you clarify what you mean by denying the enemy 2/3???