nemesis weapons

[shan vener]

OK same squads, same weapons, same characters, but BA get the charge

 

WITH HALBERDS

 

BA shooting phase

11 bolt pistol shots

6 wounds

flamer shots (lets say 4 knights hit)

2 wounds,

8 wounds, 3 fail armor save, 3 knights die

 

BA CHARGE

 

GKSS

7 attacks, 4 wounds, 3 marines die and chaplain takes a wound

 

brotherhood champion

(again lets say 4 attacks with sword storm)

3 hit, 2 wound, 2 marines die (get attacks back due to FC)

 

BA sanguinary priest

4 attacks

3 hits, 2 wound, 2 knights die

 

BA chaplain

4 attacks

3 hits, 2 wounds, 2 knights die

 

BA assault squad

18 attacks

13 hit, 8 wound, 3 fail armor save, 3 knights die (strike squad dead)

 

BA sarge

3 attacks

3 hits, 3 wounds, brotherhood champion fails 2 invulns, goes squish

 

TOTAL CASUALTIES

GK LOSSES entire squad

BA LOSSES 5 marines and a wounded chaplain (1/2 the squad)

 

now with swords

 

BA shooting phase

11 bolt pistol shots

6 wounds

flamer shots (lets say 4 knights hit)

2 wounds,

8 wounds, 3 fail armor save, 3 knights die

 

BA charge

 

brotherhood champion

(again lets say 4 attacks with sword storm)

3 hit, 2 wound, 1 marine dies, chaplain takes a wound (get attacks back due to FC)

 

BA sanguinary priest

4 attacks

3 hits, 2 wound, 2 knights die

 

BA chaplain

4 attacks

3 hits, 2 wounds, 2 knights die

 

BA assault squad

25 attacks

20 hits, 13 hits, 4 fail armor save, 4 knight dead

 

GKSS

1 attack

1 hit, no wound

 

BA sarge

3 attacks

3 hits, 3 wounds, last knights dead, brother hood champion fails invuln and all go squish

 

TOTAL CASUALTIES

GK LOSSES entire squad

BA LOSSES 1 marine, wounded chaplain

[DarKHaZZ13]

I'm not sure what you actually said there. Could you clarify what you mean by denying the enemy 2/3???

 

Sorry about that...seeing as it was just the couple of us for a while I'd just assumed they'd know what I was saying

 

The numbers in question were attacks.

 

If you kill, say, one marine, it denies that said marines 2/3 (depending on what unit/wargear it has) attacks back, as it is deadz because you struck first and thus cannot attack back.

 

Hope thats clearer....'cus it is as clear as I can make it aha :tu:

[shan vener]

okay now that i've had some green tea and have cheech and chong in the background i think i'm back to normal.

 

allright here's MY final impressions

1) halberds are worth it ON POWER ARMOR, even when your screwed and the whole squads gonna die you'll probably take half the enemy with you instead of just a couple

2) I think that the power armor unit that doesn't need them are purgation squads unless they have 4 incinerators :P

3) swords are still a pretty descent option on aything with terminator armor

4) my brain hurts (does this count because i feel like :tu: )

 

and please don't make me do more math hammer for today

 

EDIT: actually for #1 the only oone who did any thing was the brotherhood champion so with out him, if the only had swords then the GK would have been utterly destroyed without killing any enemies

[DarKHaZZ13]

okay now that i've had some green tea and have cheech and chong in the background i think i'm back to normal.

 

allright here's MY final impressions

1) halberds are worth it ON POWER ARMOR, even when your screwed and the whole squads gonna die you'll probably take half the enemy with you instead of just a couple

2) I think that the power armor unit that doesn't need them are purgation squads unless they have 4 incinerators :P

3) swords are still a pretty descent option on aything with terminator armor

4) my brain hurts (does this count because i feel like this :tu: )

 

and please don't make me do more math hammer for today

 

I think you've done enough to get you a nice sofa in a savants office somewhere on terra...

I'm pretty sure that means more maths....

but hey, its cool...right? :P

 

thanks fella

[shan vener]

any time guys, any time... except now

[DarkGuard]

Not attempting to stir anything up or something, but I was under the impression that 35pts additional points to make a unit with only 1 attack each a bit better in combat isn't worth it. If we imagine you're at 10 men anyway, with two psycannons, psybolts and a MC daemonhammer, we're looking at 250pts IIRC, 285pts if we stick a Rhino onto the squad. Now I can get a Tactical squad which is the base of my army at 225pts. If we put halberds on the unit we're looking at 285pts to 320pts, that's more than my Honour Guard, or Sternguard! You're as easy to as a Tactical squad, but you're putting more points in the unit.

 

Now obviously, the Strike squad are not Tacticals, but Tacticals are a unit you'll face a lot. In combat and shooting you're better than us anyway, why spend 35pts extra to make yourself better in combat when you don't have to. That's 70pts in total if you're using two squads, 70pts that could be better spent elsewhere. I'm sorry, but I don't think I can agree with halberds on PAGK, even if you're saving one extra guy from dying. That's one extra guy in a squad of ten, not worth it IMO. But that's my view.

 

IMO, swords and daemonhammer on Strike squads and Interceptors, perhaps a couple of falchions on Interceptors as well. Just swords, maybe a daemonhammer on Purgation squads. Halberds and daemonhammers on Terminators, perhaps falchions on Paladins due to having 2 wounds, possible FnP and lack of numbers. Halberds and daemonhammers on Purifiers, and swords and falchions on ICs.

 

Bascially, if it's got 2A and cheap halberd option then get it the halberd. If it's only 1A and it's expensive, then stick with swords. Just my opinion on the matter.

[shan vener]

Not attempting to stir anything up or something, but I was under the impression that 35pts additional points to make a unit with only 1 attack each a bit better in combat isn't worth it. If we imagine you're at 10 men anyway, with two psycannons, psybolts and a MC daemonhammer, we're looking at 250pts IIRC, 285pts if we stick a Rhino onto the squad. Now I can get a Tactical squad which is the base of my army at 225pts. If we put halberds on the unit we're looking at 285pts to 320pts, that's more than my Honour Guard, or Sternguard! You're as easy to as a Tactical squad, but you're putting more points in the unit.

 

Now obviously, the Strike squad are not Tacticals, but Tacticals are a unit you'll face a lot. In combat and shooting you're better than us anyway, why spend 35pts extra to make yourself better in combat when you don't have to. That's 70pts in total if you're using two squads, 70pts that could be better spent elsewhere. I'm sorry, but I don't think I can agree with halberds on PAGK, even if you're saving one extra guy from dying. That's one extra guy in a squad of ten, not worth it IMO. But that's my view.

 

IMO, swords and daemonhammer on Strike squads and Interceptors, perhaps a couple of falchions on Interceptors as well. Just swords, maybe a daemonhammer on Purgation squads. Halberds and daemonhammers on Terminators, perhaps falchions on Paladins due to having 2 wounds, possible FnP and lack of numbers. Halberds and daemonhammers on Purifiers, and swords and falchions on ICs.

 

Bascially, if it's got 2A and cheap halberd option then get it the halberd. If it's only 1A and it's expensive, then stick with swords. Just my opinion on the matter.

 

look at ALL the math hammer and you'll find that like i said

 

"halberds are worth it ON POWER ARMOR, even when your screwed and the whole squads gonna die you'll probably take half the enemy with you instead of just a couple"

 

and besides this was an EXAMPLE GK squad i have that BA unit a lot and an assault squad+chaplain+priest typically kills all. and beides what if you charge a group of genestealers without halberds (i know this is a bad idea but this is an example) but if you charge w/ halberds then strike at the same time.

 

EDIT: and after so many carnifexes and daemon princes with my BA you learn to give all sarges a powerfist, i think the same applies here

[DarKHaZZ13]

Not attempting to stir anything up or something, but I was under the impression that 35pts additional points to make a unit with only 1 attack each a bit better in combat isn't worth it. If we imagine you're at 10 men anyway, with two psycannons, psybolts and a MC daemonhammer, we're looking at 250pts IIRC, 285pts if we stick a Rhino onto the squad. Now I can get a Tactical squad which is the base of my army at 225pts. If we put halberds on the unit we're looking at 285pts to 320pts, that's more than my Honour Guard, or Sternguard! You're as easy to as a Tactical squad, but you're putting more points in the unit.

 

Weapon options won't change how easier you are to kill, but you'll tak e more enemies down with halberds. otherwise your just gonna die and do little to no damage against anything decent. (in combat anyways)

 

Now obviously, the Strike squad are not Tacticals, but Tacticals are a unit you'll face a lot. In combat and shooting you're better than us anyway, why spend 35pts extra to make yourself better in combat when you don't have to. That's 70pts in total if you're using two squads, 70pts that could be better spent elsewhere. I'm sorry, but I don't think I can agree with halberds on PAGK, even if you're saving one extra guy from dying. That's one extra guy in a squad of ten, not worth it IMO. But that's my view.

 

its 5 points a halberd....thats 25 points for 5 men....wheres the 35 from?

And its saving one guy per 5 men. so thats saving 2 guys in a ten man squad, per round of combat. which is equal to the cost of the weapons.

 

Obvously you'll face tacticals a lot, I accept that and of course the extra weapons are a bit wasted on them

But you will fight other units aswell....try approaching it from a 'take all' perspective.

As Shan Vener pointed out. The I6 will probably be your only chance against high initative opponents like stealers.

Also it will get your attacks in before units that will almost certainly kill you straight out otherwise; like terminators, thus increasing the chance of your units survivng combat/ doing some damage.

 

IMO, swords and daemonhammer on Strike squads and Interceptors, perhaps a couple of falchions on Interceptors as well. Just swords, maybe a daemonhammer on Purgation squads. Halberds and daemonhammers on Terminators, perhaps falchions on Paladins due to having 2 wounds, possible FnP and lack of numbers. Halberds and daemonhammers on Purifiers, and swords and falchions on ICs.

 

Bascially, if it's got 2A and cheap halberd option then get it the halberd. If it's only 1A and it's expensive, then stick with swords. Just my opinion on the matter.

 

I value your opinion...obviously I disagree, I feel the extra points are worth it for survivability, and the chance to actually do damage to decent enemies.

But falchions are a waste of time in any PA squad. They only give 1 extra attack, which as I said ealier, is easily offset by killing an enemy first (With I6 from a halberd), thus denying him more attacks then you would get with the bonus attack from the falchion.

Moving away from halberds...

 

Paladins I'd treat like Ork Knob squads. Different weapon on each (where possible), just for wound alocation ;)

 

I agree with the 'deamon Hammer/power first' point, I can't find fault with the idea tbh

I think I'll work that into my next list :D

[Abaddonshand]

Not to get into the rules debate again, but it can't be said for certain which way falchions will go, so to declare outright they are useless for only getting one attack isn't really accurate.

 

Either way, I'm probably going to take 7 in an interceptor squad, with 1 extra attack they get 3 each on the charge, so vanguard vet level damage output right there. If they get 2 extra attacks, even imperial guard blob squads have something to worry about!

 

As for halberds, they're for characters, purifiers and terminators IMHO. I7 grandmasters are just hilarious! Although, 7/6 attacks from falchions, charging and a banner would be an interesting option too! Add in the standard complement of I win grenades and you have one heck of a character.

[DarkGuard]

look at ALL the math hammer and you'll find that like i said

 

"halberds are worth it ON POWER ARMOR, even when your screwed and the whole squads gonna die you'll probably take half the enemy with you instead of just a couple"

 

and besides this was an EXAMPLE GK squad i have that BA unit a lot and an assault squad+chaplain+priest typically kills all. and beides what if you charge a group of genestealers without halberds (i know this is a bad idea but this is an example) but if you charge w/ halberds then strike at the same time.

 

EDIT: and after so many carnifexes and daemon princes with my BA you learn to give all sarges a powerfist, i think the same applies here

 

I never said halberds aren't worth it on power armour. I said I don't find them worth the cost on 1A models, such as Strike squads, Interceptors etc. On Purifiers they're gold, 2pts, 2 attacks standard at I6? Yes please! Or 5pts, 1 attack standard at I6? Bearing in mind you hit on 4s. I think I'll pass.

 

I did look at all the Mathhammer, and your findings are good, again thank you very much for taking the time with that, I'm not attempting to undermine your efforts. But I prefer to use Mathhammer as a guide. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'm saying that for the points involved I'd prefer to keep them shooty with some assaulty, rather than shooty and a bit better assaulty for more points. That's just the way I'd build a list, and I agree that while they're worth it on power armour, I don't like the idea of paying 5pts per halberd for a one attack model.

 

But that's just me. Being a Nid player, I have units that can be made better in shooting and assault, but it's rarely worth it. You make them too expensive, turning them into a points sink, and when you're shooting you're wasting your assault upgrades, when you're in combat you're wasting your shooting upgrades. So it's less about worth, but rather wastefulness budgeting, if you get what I mean.

 

Fortunately I don't run into a lot of MCs, and so I don't feel the need to equip power fists on Tactical squads. It's partly metagame, partly not feeling it's worth it as I make my unit more killy for a big price. Against big stuff I don't do as much damage, against little stuff I don't need it. But that's just me. For GKs daemonhammers are a must, as they round them off and are only 10pts anyway, 15 if master-crafted.

 

@DarKHaZZ13

Weapon options won't change how easier you are to kill, but you'll tak e more enemies down with halberds. otherwise your just gonna die and do little to no damage against anything decent. (in combat anyways)

 

If you're going to die anyway, why spend more points. True you kill a couple more of them, but why bother when you can shoot them some more, or assault them with a more CC orientated unit. Your GKSS may lose one less guy against a dedicated assault unit, but you're still going to lose a lot of guys. My Genestealers still strike and kill you anyway, and you've lost more points. Those points could have but psybolt onto another squad which will find it easier to kill the Stealers sitting in the open. Against Tactical Marines, sure you lose three guys, one more than if had had halberds. But they lose a load of guys, lost combat, and you've saved points that can be spent elsewhere.

 

its 5 points a halberd....thats 25 points for 5 men....wheres the 35 from?

And its saving one guy per 5 men. so thats saving 2 guys in a ten man squad, per round of combat. which is equal to the cost of the weapons.

 

Obvously you'll face tacticals a lot, I accept that and of course the extra weapons are a bit wasted on them

But you will fight other units aswell....try approaching it from a 'take all' perspective.

As Shan Vener pointed out. The I6 will probably be your only chance against high initative opponents like stealers.

Also it will get your attacks in before units that will almost certainly kill you straight out otherwise; like terminators, thus increasing the chance of your units survivng combat/ doing some damage.

 

In my post, I clearly stated I was assuming a 10 man squad, with a Justicar with MC-daemonhammer and two psycannons. 7 extra guys, 5pts a halberd, 35pts. Which is also the cost of a Rhino, which I'd prefer to buy with those points. You need to save three guys then to pay back, but I don't buy into that, 40K is governed by other things to this.

 

As I pointed out above, Stealers won't care if you're I6. And if you're against Stealers, you shouldn't be in the open, you should be in cover. They charge you, you strike I4 with cheaper power swords, they strike I1, and you may have got Hammerhand off. Halberds only help if you charge them, which should only be done if you shot them. But if that's the case why didn't you shoot them all?

 

Most Terminator squads strike at I1. Not many people use LC Terminators, so you're looking at blobs of Tactical Terminators and Hammernators, possibly GKTs, but it seems like most people are using PAGKs a lot more. So the halberd doesn't help here, unless you face a lot of LC Terminators and GKTs, in which case they still don't help that must. GKTs will have I6 as well, more attacks, and an invulnerable save. Your GKSS has less attacks and no invulnerable save. Might help against LC Terminators. However, if you're charged by Terminators, or forced to charge Terminators with GKSS, something has gone wrong. Only your own Terminators, DCAs and Purifiers should attempt this. Again, is 35pts per 10 man squad worth the chance you may run into these guys? If you run two units that 70pts you could have saved.

 

I value your opinion...obviously I disagree, I feel the extra points are worth it for survivability, and the chance to actually do damage to decent enemies.

But falchions are a waste of time in any PA squad. They only give 1 extra attack, which as I said ealier, is easily offset by killing an enemy first (With I6 from a halberd), thus denying him more attacks then you would get with the bonus attack from the falchion.

Moving away from halberds...

 

Paladins I'd treat like Ork Knob squads. Different weapon on each (where possible), just for wound alocation tongue.gif

 

I agree with the 'deamon Hammer/power first' point, I can't find fault with the idea tbh

I think I'll work that into my next list tongue.gif

 

As do I. I don't want a massive argument, so I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. The brilliant thing is GKSS will be scary with halberds, and so it's a valid way to run them. It's just not how I'd run them, and choosing to do it my way is equally as valid, it comes down to personal preference.

 

I do, however, feel there's a false sense of survivability. You may roll poorly. You may not get off Hammerhand. You will only hit 3-4 times anyway, and may roll poorer than that. But then you may roll better. I just prefer not to rely on luck as must as possible, and even with halberds I think GKSS will still rely on some luck against combat specialists. I'd prefer to save the points and develop my game so that I learn where to place them, how to use them against these big units etc. Nothing wrong with using them with halberds, that requires different skills.

 

I agree with you on Paladins, that was what I was thinking off. I'm guessing an Apothecary w/halberd, daemonhammer, psycannon w/halberd, halberd, and then warding stave/falchions/sword/banner/incinerator etc. Perhaps psycannon and daemonhammer for the last one.

 

@Abaddonshand

Not to get into the rules debate again, but it can't be said for certain which way falchions will go, so to declare outright they are useless for only getting one attack isn't really accurate.

 

Either way, I'm probably going to take 7 in an interceptor squad, with 1 extra attack they get 3 each on the charge, so vanguard vet level damage output right there. If they get 2 extra attacks, even imperial guard blob squads have something to worry about!

 

As for halberds, they're for characters, purifiers and terminators IMHO. I7 grandmasters are just hilarious! Although, 7/6 attacks from falchions, charging and a banner would be an interesting option too! Add in the standard complement of I win grenades and you have one heck of a character.

 

I like the look of falchions, and hope they get +2A, especially for their price costs, but lets not get into that.

 

I wouldn't take 7 on Interceptors though, as they're expensive. 2-5 should be sufficient, making up in part for number of attacks, and giving you some bullet catchers. Remember, S5 also makes up for less attacks, people seem to forget that a lot.

 

I agree with purifiers and terminators, and can see the use on ICs. However, it'll only be helpful against things like BA, Slaanesh and Eldar. Against most targets your I5 is fast enough, although I do suppose you're faster than SM Captains. However, 3++ saves really annoy people, so having one of them in combat is cool, while if halberds are +2 attacks who can turn down 6 attacks on the charge at S5. So hitting on 3s with a re-roll, wounding on 2s with a re-roll (Hammerhand, MC, rad and digi weapons), that'll carve through most squads with ease. But then again, crazy fast I7 ICs with a power weapon, beware Nids!

[Brother Valerius]

What do people think of putting a NWS on PA squads which you want to get into assault? PA squads have no invulnerable save whatsoever, so the value of that 2++ in assault might become apparent. It's really pricey, but it seems like a squad which wants to be in CC should go there bearing at least a little protection from any power weapon attacks they run into.

[DarkGuard]

What do people think of putting a NWS on PA squads which you want to get into assault? PA squads have no invulnerable save whatsoever, so the value of that 2++ in assault might become apparent. It's really pricey, but it seems like a squad which wants to be in CC should go there bearing at least a little protection from any power weapon attacks they run into.

 

Hmm, it isn't very popular probably because it affects one model. However, if you end up in combat with Tactical squads you'll take a hit from a power weapon or power fist half the time. You can lump these wounds on that model, making them more or less useless. However, if it was a 2++ all the time, or effectively a storm shield it may have got more attention. That or less points. Matt Ward's are normally very good, but he might have missed it with that one.

[imperious]

I like staves on Paladins, it saves them from powerfists and their ilk. Make one save from a powerfist, and its more then paid for itself. I don't like it on PA squads though.

 

I'm all for the standard hammer 2 psycannons and swords for strike knights. I'd rather have psybolts then halberds. Its cheaper and turns them from a good shooting unit into a great shooting unit. Halberds turn them from an average assault unit into an above average assault unit. I prefer specializing then generalizing my units though. Strike squads are shooty, I'd rather make them shootier.

[DarKHaZZ13]

Well countered Dark Guard, well counterd indeed.

 

I choose PAGK's as troops specifically to hold a singular home objective (The rest of my troops are terminators and my army will be pretty 'up field'). Therefore, for me, survival is paramount...I agree that the bonus isn't guarenteed to help....but it'll help....even if only a little.

I'll have to wait and see how it holds up in a game.

And yeah...about the same here for my paladins, except minus the deamonhammer...but like I said before, it was something I'd previously overlooked.

 

Onto other pastures;

 

- The flachion argument ¬_¬ *sigh* All I'm saying is don't hold your breath. 10/15 points for +1 attack is pretty much the standerd that has existed since 3rd ed.

 

- NWS? Not that great anywhere really IMO, unless you put it on a Libby. That invunerable bonus might save you in a perils of the warp situation.

 

and to imperious;

Yes they are shooty...but they do have short range.

And the principle problem with a shooty army, is people aim to close the gap, asap.

If people decide to go mounted against you, that shooty strike sqaud is not really going to be very helpfull

In which case psybolts wont save you...unless you advance yourself.

 

As I just said, I aim to use PAGK mainly for the home objective...so shooty but with a back up plan. Thus advancing is counter productive.

 

 

 

The problem with all this theory and math hammer is that a game is is entirley dependant on;

 

1) What you have in the rest of your army

2) What your overall stratergy is

3) What they have in their army

4) What their overall startergy is

5) How the game pans out

6) luck.

 

As such, we'll probably never all agree, and in addition, there is not a 'best' option, as all are dependant on the above.

 

No battle plan survives contact with the enemy ;)

[Brother Valerius]

- NWS? Not that great anywhere really IMO, unless you put it on a Libby. That invunerable bonus might save you in a perils of the warp situation.

 

I don't believe it would do anything in that scenario, as perils isn't a close combat attack.

[DarkGuard]

Well countered Dark Guard, well counterd indeed.

 

I'm not just a pretty face! ;)

 

I choose PAGK's as troops specifically to hold a singular home objective (The rest of my troops are terminators and my army will be pretty 'up field'). Therefore, for me, survival is paramount...I agree that the bonus isn't guarenteed to help....but it'll help....even if only a little.

I'll have to wait and see how it holds up in a game.

And yeah...about the same here for my paladins, except minus the deamonhammer...but like I said before, it was something I'd previously overlooked.

 

Ah, now I understand your reasons better. I still wouldn't do it myself, as frankly I'd deploy any objectives midfield and let my Terminators sit there, but each to their own.

[imperious]

@Brother Valerius: The warding stave says nothing about close combat attacks. It says that if you are in close combat, you get a 2+ invul save. Probably should be added to the FAQ thread, actually.

 

@ Darkhazz: You're right about people closing with shooty armies, but I like to rely on other, more dedicated assault troops to use in a counter attack role and keep my shooting specialists shooting. But that's my style, and it doesn't invalidate anyone else's. If you are using your strike squads as a do-it-all type unit with little or no support then I can see where the halberds could be an effective choice. I use halberds everywhere except strike squads and they are a steal on terminators and purifiers.

[Brother Valerius]

@Brother Valerius: The warding stave says nothing about close combat attacks. It says that if you are in close combat, you get a 2+ invul save. Probably should be added to the FAQ thread, actually.

 

You know, that never occurred to me. Good catch.

[Daedalus Templarius]

I might take a force stave on my Librarian if my buddies ever get any more nasty assault things. As it is now, I usually wipe them out with draigowing before they get a chance to do much.