New to Chaos

[Isryion]

Hey everyone, strongly considering Chaos as my "bad guy" army, but have a couple of questions. I hope you can help me out. I'm a competitive player but my lists are a mix of effective units and things I just like to take because I like the models/style/fluff I'm sure I'll have more eventually, but here are my starting questions:

 

1) It seems that a large number of chaos space marines is a good thing and I've seen or heard that around "30" is a pretty good number for a list. Is that correct? And, are they best broken into squads of 10 in rhinos or massive units on foot? It seems like access to special weapons would be important, thus breaking the numbers down, but a couple of large units seems like it could be a lot of fun.

 

2) I'm a bit underwhelmed by the Chosen stats (having played fantasy for a long time) and they don't even seem to be able to match SM vets very well, so I'm wondering how useful they are. The upside does seem to be that they really are the only unit that has flexibility both in deployment via infiltrate and in a variety of weapon options. So, how do people use them, if at all? What roles do they fill?

 

3) How acceptable is it to us counts-as models for units like berserkers, thousand sons, etc...? I'm planning on making a DIY chapter and would like to simply have units equipped/function differently but with similar armor and paint schemes between units. I'm especially considering this for the 1k sons, whose models I really don't like. However, I could see how that could confuse opponents.

 

Thanks in advance for the thoughts.

[minigun762]

Hey everyone, strongly considering Chaos as my "bad guy" army, but have a couple of questions. I hope you can help me out. I'm a competitive player but my lists are a mix of effective units and things I just like to take because I like the models/style/fluff I'm sure I'll have more eventually, but here are my starting questions:

Welcome to the 8 fold path. I salute you for wanting to play with the units you like and still have a competitive army, I'm the exact same way.

 

 

 

1) It seems that a large number of chaos space marines is a good thing and I've seen or heard that around "30" is a pretty good number for a list. Is that correct? And, are they best broken into squads of 10 in rhinos or massive units on foot? It seems like access to special weapons would be important, thus breaking the numbers down, but a couple of large units seems like it could be a lot of fun.

For the basic CSM (not cult troops) the standard really is 10 guys, Rhino and 2 special weapons. Beyond that you can take the champion, which is usually a good buy and maybe an icon. A key thing to remember with CSMs is that they don't have ATSKNF nor are they Fearless so a big squad of 20 can be run off the board.

 

2) I'm a bit underwhelmed by the Chosen stats (having played fantasy for a long time) and they don't even seem to be able to match SM vets very well, so I'm wondering how useful they are. The upside does seem to be that they really are the only unit that has flexibility both in deployment via infiltrate and in a variety of weapon options. So, how do people use them, if at all? What roles do they fill?

40k Chosen are a different thing compared to fantasy chosen. They are used as infiltrators and outflankers or when you just really want to spam special weapons. Many people ignore them until higher point games because they'd rather just take CSMs who are scoring. If/when you choose to use them, I find 5 guys with 5 special weapons (usually 4 melta/1 flamer) in a Rhino to be a fairly cost effective option.

 

3) How acceptable is it to us counts-as models for units like berserkers, thousand sons, etc...? I'm planning on making a DIY chapter and would like to simply have units equipped/function differently but with similar armor and paint schemes between units. I'm especially considering this for the 1k sons, whose models I really don't like. However, I could see how that could confuse opponents.

The typical rule of thumb for "count as" is that its clear to both you and the opponent what is what. This means you want to stay away from something like "these guys with blue plasma guns are CSMs and the red plasma guns are thousand sons". Instead I would try to build big shooty servitors or chaos creatures with guns attached as they wouldn't be mistaken for something else.

[Brother Keyaetus]

heh, 30 a good number? :tu: I remember I was getting ultramarines a 2000 point game with my chaos, and I thought 'hell, it'd be fun to spam as much chaos marines as I can!' So I made 5 20 man squads, with flamer/meltas and powerfists with chaos glory, and one lone terminator sorcerer.

Funnily we decide to play the new battlemissions...and we get 'Black crusade' 8).

Was suprisingly fun to play..and Sicarius must of died around 3 times that game, nearly 4 haha. Was a good win too ;D (though the respawning infantry rule actually benefited him since mine didnt have enough time to reach him while his deployment stuck to his boardside and got respawns instantly back into combat etc.x) )

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

1) It seems that a large number of chaos space marines is a good thing and I've seen or heard that around "30" is a pretty good number for a list. Is that correct? And, are they best broken into squads of 10 in rhinos or massive units on foot? It seems like access to special weapons would be important, thus breaking the numbers down, but a couple of large units seems like it could be a lot of fun.

 

My rule of thumb is 1 Troop choice per 500 points of list, and with basic CSMs always squads of 10.

 

2) I'm a bit underwhelmed by the Chosen stats (having played fantasy for a long time) and they don't even seem to be able to match SM vets very well, so I'm wondering how useful they are. The upside does seem to be that they really are the only unit that has flexibility both in deployment via infiltrate and in a variety of weapon options. So, how do people use them, if at all? What roles do they fill?

 

Chosen in this edition are pretty sad, but they have been useful to me on several occasions. I generally run a 5-man squad in a Rhino with 3 meltaguns and 2 flamers and use them for Outflanking nuisancemongering and HQ headhunting, but I confess they don't get out as much as they used to.

[BlkTom]

This codex is a diservice to what Chaos marines are suppose to be. But, if you focus more on fun then being competitive, you can still enjoy the codex and just accept your losses.

 

To be frank, the codex is geared more to make the black legion and kinda screwed everyone else. If you /want/ to do Black Legion, congratulations! You want an all Nurgel army? Well, you can either give any none plague marine/cult units the Mark of Nurgel and watch them run away when they take a wounds or you can allow them a re-roll leadership chance with a Icon of Greater Chaos Glory of Gav... your choice. Oh yeah, that Icon is going to be worth almost 2 marines and if the bearer is taken out, the whole sqaud loses the benifit... so hope the chaos god smile on you that you don't take a hail of bullets that forces a save on every guy and you fail the bearer's save! Oh, but don't worry... you can make his save last! Whew! Err... we will not talk about that there are a few things in the game that can target individuals in a squad... Oh yeah... that Chaos Glory Icon is the cheapest Icon of them all, just to put salt on that twisting knife in your gullet.

 

Then... then there are the frustrating things like Mark of Slannesh... Khorn? +1 attack? That is cool. Nurgel? +1 Toughness you say? I can dig it. Tzeentch? Gives them an 5+ invulnability save if they don't have one or increases their current one by +1, that is pretty damn slick. Slannesh? +1 Init... really. Just a +1... your giving Berzerkers Furious Charge, but Slannesh a +1 Init... not +2 which would actually be useful, but a +1. *Word Edit*

 

Best option I can come up for you is to do what your all ready kinda looking at doing... I am doing Emperor's Children, but I hate Noise Marines. Those are not Bezerkers, those are ECs on combat drugs! Those are not Plague Marines, those are EC on Combat Drugs! ect, ect... in fact, I have my whole army painted as one army. I mark icon bearers with a old standard between their legs laid on the base because I refuse to pay money for those ugly things. My assault squad is geared right, but they are Berzerkers point and stat-wise, so on and so forth. I wouldn't buy an obliterator if it was given to me half price (and we are still talking it costing to much). I would rather proxy a Terminator with an assault cannon.

 

Good luck... and here is hoping when 6th Ed comes out we get the first Codex upgrade after Necron and Tau.

 

Edit by Insane Psychopath - Please watch the launge, we are a family friendly fourm

[Isryion]

Thanks for the thoughts so far.

 

So AT LEAST 30 CSM, with maybe another troop type or two thrown in.

 

It's sounds like I may end up taking my time with these and have some thinking to do (and I'm now especially wondering how the Grey Knights will impact lists. Halberds sound like a bad deal for berserkers and psyammo is going to help instakill oblits....)

[Brother Ambroz]

Thanks for the thoughts so far.

 

So AT LEAST 30 CSM, with maybe another troop type or two thrown in.

 

It's sounds like I may end up taking my time with these and have some thinking to do (and I'm now especially wondering how the Grey Knights will impact lists. Halberds sound like a bad deal for berserkers and psyammo is going to help instakill oblits....)

 

Insta-kill oblits? what?

 

The halberds aren't bad for knights against our zerkers but they only get a few attacks with them (unless you let them charge) against our WS 5 with their WS 4 and 4 strength makes a max of one wound likely per model if that. And usually knight squads are only 5-10 per squad so they're not that bad.

 

If you're planning on playing for fun/fluffily, then don't feel you need to buy as many troops as possible but if you are, then yeah PM and zerks are pretty essential. As for counts as, with the army I'm currently playing I use a converted zerk squad (painted Night lords with different shoulderpads and heads then the Khorny World Eater ones), and regular CSM squads with each "PM" counts as having a green shoulderpad.

 

Oh and I don't really use chosen so I can't comment on them, although I did play against someone who did outflank them using a rhino but all they did was ride around the side of the board, kinda not worth the points in my opinion.

[Isryion]

Insta-kill oblits? what?

 

They can have a lot of STR 8 shooting, iirc.

[Brother Ambroz]

Yeah but correct me if I'm wrong those psy-weapons aren't AP-2 though right? If so I wouldn't worry too much about oblits getting shot up by psycannons.

[minigun762]

So AT LEAST 30 CSM, with maybe another troop type or two thrown in.

 

The standard build at the moment revolves around Daemon Princes as HQs, Obliterators as Heavies and then some kind of mix of Plague Marines, Berzerkers and Chaos Marines as your troops. Most people prefer the two cult troop options so the overall body count is fewer then if they went with straight CSMs.

 

My army is built with a mini-horde of the basic CSM and less emphasis on the other stuff, so I tend to have 40 guys at 1500 and 50-60 at anything beyond that. Overall I'm happy with how it performs.

[Isryion]

Yeah but correct me if I'm wrong those psy-weapons aren't AP-2 though right? If so I wouldn't worry too much about oblits getting shot up by psycannons.

 

Yeah, they're not AP2, but one failed save and you're done. Not a huge deal, but I was curious.

 

The standard build at the moment revolves around Daemon Princes as HQs, Obliterators as Heavies and then some kind of mix of Plague Marines, Berzerkers and Chaos Marines as your troops. Most people prefer the two cult troop options so the overall body count is fewer then if they went with straight CSMs.

 

QUOTE (Isryion @ May 25 2011, 09:51 AM) *

So AT LEAST 30 CSM, with maybe another troop type or two thrown in.

 

 

The standard build at the moment revolves around Daemon Princes as HQs, Obliterators as Heavies and then some kind of mix of Plague Marines, Berzerkers and Chaos Marines as your troops. Most people prefer the two cult troop options so the overall body count is fewer then if they went with straight CSMs.

 

My army is built with a mini-horde of the basic CSM and less emphasis on the other stuff, so I tend to have 40 guys at 1500 and 50-60 at anything beyond that. Overall I'm happy with how it performs.

 

I actually really think a horde of chaos might be a lot of fun, mixing a lot of the traits I like in 40k, a flexible elite force (or at least above average ;) ) with a good model count, not always easy to do.

 

Another question: Do people typically use the glory mark for CSM, or are there other marks that are more useful? I think most seem useful, and I especially like the idea of the Nurgle Mark, but I'm wondering about more practical use on the table. Thanks again.

[minigun762]

Another question: Do people typically use the glory mark for CSM, or are there other marks that are more useful? I think most seem useful, and I especially like the idea of the Nurgle Mark, but I'm wondering about more practical use on the table. Thanks again.

 

Just to be clear, remember that there is a difference between a mark and an icon. Marks can't be lost by unlucky gunfire the same way an icon can.

 

For icons on CSMs, I think the majority of people will tell you to take IoCG or nothing at all because its 1) cheap and 2) helps to compensate somewhat for not being Fearless or having ATSKNF. The remainder of the icons typically fail to perform very well for the following reasons:

Slaanesh = +1I is nice against other MEQs and sometimes Eldar but its useless against anything <I4 or >I5 so at best its a situational bonus.

Khorne = Probably the 2nd best option as the extra attack is usually helpful, especially with a power fist. The drawback here is that you could take Berzerkers instead and gain even more bonuses. It can be an effective way to incorporate Khorne themed units with meltaguns though if you need more anti-tank.

Tzeentch = not very useful against shooting attacks when you're sitting in a rhino and/or have a 4+ cover save available to you. It can be useful in close combat until you realize that it might save 3 guys from a 10 man squad which is almost the cost of the icon in the first place and thats if the icon doesn't die prior.

Nurgle = My vote for the absolute worst and the reason is simple. Its too expensive and you can take Plague Marines who do all the same things but better.

[Isryion]

Another question: Do people typically use the glory mark for CSM, or are there other marks that are more useful? I think most seem useful, and I especially like the idea of the Nurgle Mark, but I'm wondering about more practical use on the table. Thanks again.

 

Just to be clear, remember that there is a difference between a mark and an icon. Marks can't be lost by unlucky gunfire the same way an icon can.

 

For icons on CSMs, I think the majority of people will tell you to take IoCG or nothing at all because its 1) cheap and 2) helps to compensate somewhat for not being Fearless or having ATSKNF. The remainder of the icons typically fail to perform very well for the following reasons:

Slaanesh = +1I is nice against other MEQs and sometimes Eldar but its useless against anything <I4 or >I5 so at best its a situational bonus.

Khorne = Probably the 2nd best option as the extra attack is usually helpful, especially with a power fist. The drawback here is that you could take Berzerkers instead and gain even more bonuses. It can be an effective way to incorporate Khorne themed units with meltaguns though if you need more anti-tank.

Tzeentch = not very useful against shooting attacks when you're sitting in a rhino and/or have a 4+ cover save available to you. It can be useful in close combat until you realize that it might save 3 guys from a 10 man squad which is almost the cost of the icon in the first place and thats if the icon doesn't die prior.

Nurgle = My vote for the absolute worst and the reason is simple. Its too expensive and you can take Plague Marines who do all the same things but better.

 

So, in essence, based on what you're saying, the basic CSM should at best take IoCG because, essentially if I want to pay for the icon, I might as well take the specialist unit, which does the job better. Heck, it sounds like Berzerkers would be better than Slaanesh anyways since they have FC....So, this gets back to my original question #3, and coming up with a uniform look while maybe coming up with some variations to represent the specialists.

 

Thanks again, and if you have more thoughts, keep em coming.

[BlkTom]

Yeah, my bad for confusing you about the Icons and Marks. Marks are for HQ units and Icons are for non-cult squads. They both give the same effect, just that Icon bearers can be killed.

 

Yeah, the big choices for Icons comes down to if you want to use Havocs, Raptors, Chosen, Terminators, and of course, Chaos Marines. Not having any of them as Fearless means that yeah, you go IoCG or nothing at all. This is also why people tend to suicide their terminators, along with the lack of a decent delivery system. You can Land Raider them (also Zerkers or the like), but your just not firing anything as you move because of no PotMS. Havocs can be really good in a 5 man squad with ACs or MLs, but it is that dang moral issue means IoCG. This is another reason why people take Oblits, no Icons. Predators with a AC Turret and LC sponsons also does a decent job and alot of people have had success with them.

 

#3, and coming up with a uniform look while maybe coming up with some variations to represent the specialists.

Really, I would consider the classic marine standard of a colored shoulder pad and the opposite knee pad (depending on your models). Have it as the base color and your symbol over it. Can do a stripe, half pad, checker, ect... do a helmet stripe to match and they should be distinct enough.

[Lysimachus]

You can also differentiate in the way that you model them, if you put your standard CSM together with their bolters in slightly more static poses, then you can use the Berzerker running legs along with normal CSM heads and bolt pistols/CC weapons, makes it clear that they're dedicated assault units (Khorne Berzerkers). Plague marines could simply be extra heavily armoured (Terminator pads or extra plasticard/Green Stuff plates?) and/or have lots of bionic bits to represent higher T and FNP.

[Isryion]

Well, I received my battleforce cheap from ebay and love the detail and character of all of the models, so I'm pretty much all in now. I'll probably go with a similar scheme army-wide retaining variations in armor, but with only slight color variations on units like berzerkers. I love the idea of the possessed but the parts may end up being used to represent powerfists, or just bitz for aspiring champs and the like.

[minigun762]

I love the idea of the possessed but the parts may end up being used to represent powerfists, or just bitz for aspiring champs and the like.

 

This is the compromise that most people make, since the models look amazing but the rules are subpar to say the least.

 

Sounds like someone needs to spend some quality time with the glue, cutters and a paint brush.

^_^

[Isryion]

Thanks for all the help. I've actually picked up a few more items since prices are going up! For now, I'm going to go the Predator route, as I'd actually prefer to wait for finecasts or new plastics (whenever that may be) for Havocs and Oblits. Plus, Chaos tanks just look cool.....like all their stuff;) I also picked up another set of berserkers as that would fill out my 8, or two units of them.

[Isryion]

To add to my previous post, I'm planning to pick up the following:

 

Demon Prince

45 CSM (3 units of 10 with Rhinos, 1 for conversions using the FW Death Guard, also getting a rhino)

20 Berserks

3 Predators

 

 

Pretty basic starting force I think that is pretty balanced.

[Rik Riorik]

Three Predators seem a bit over the top for the first purchase :-). But maybe you love tank models like me and would rather field tanks than any other heavy support options. And maybe you are not on as tight a budget :-).

 

Welcome to the dark side anyways!

[Isryion]

Three Predators seem a bit over the top for the first purchase :-). But maybe you love tank models like me and would rather field tanks than any other heavy support options. And maybe you are not on as tight a budget :-).

 

Welcome to the dark side anyways!

 

 

Heh, I am not planning it to get everything at once! I actually prefer infantry models usually, but I think 3 Chaos Preds would look mean and could be fun, but I'm also assuming that they can made to work as rhinos, too.

 

At some point, some Oblits would be fun, but I'm going to wait until the finecast them.

[Rik Riorik]

Actually bought my first Predator today because of your three Predator post. Couldnt find a proper way to do Obliterators that I liked since I loathe the real models for them and so since I really like tanks it was the push I needed :-).