Deathwing vs. Ork Horde

[WhoaDirty]

I have an upcoming league game (1850 points) versus an Ork horde and I am really wondering how I am going to handle it. What is the best way for Deathwing heavy armies to deal with the massive horde? What is the best unit configuration to run? Do you need as many SS (with the exception of the command squad I usually run two per squad), or do you reduce the number to increase storm bolter shots? Do AssCans become more useful because of the rate of fire or is the CML still king? Do LC become more useful because of the increased attacks at Initiative?

 

More specifically about our match-up:

My opponent's army will be trukks and trukks of boys, some Deffkoptas, maybe a Battlewagon, and a huge grot unit with a Shokk Attack gun. My list is 5 DWT squads, one with full command, special weapons: 3 CML, 2 AC, a Ravenwing squad of three bikes and attack bike, two Typhon speeders and a Whirlwind.

 

Sorry, lots of questions there in a short amount of space, but any help/feedback would be appreciated.

[Interrogator Stobz]

Unfortunately for you, point for point unupgraded ork infantry will kill you no matter what you give your DWS, do the maths for each squad. :lol: Lucky for you tactics, ground, deployment etc can sway the balance in your favour.

 

Your best hope is that he has spent a lot of points on various upgrades and other types of units, the math swings a bit when he does that.

 

What you can do is to Mech up in LRCs and kill his AT weapons, then you are untouchable if you keep moving.

 

After looking at your list I'd say heaps of storm bolters and CMLs, and maintain the water technique of baiting him around the table and retaining 12-24" range as long as you can to thin him out. DWA and DS can be your friend as you can get behind his line and force him to turn around a bit, might slow him down if he is distracted enough.

 

Difficult job ahead so good luck.

[Candleshoes]

Make sure to get the most out of the Apothecary squad, as they can stand up much more readily to all the basic choppa attacks. If you play them right from the get go to be the tank/mailed fist of your list, it should allow you to utilize or free up some other squads to provide flexible roles, like Stobz suggests.

[pueriexdeus]

I have an upcoming league game (1850 points) versus an Ork horde and I am really wondering how I am going to handle it. What is the best way for Deathwing heavy armies to deal with the massive horde? What is the best unit configuration to run? Do you need as many SS (with the exception of the command squad I usually run two per squad), or do you reduce the number to increase storm bolter shots? Do AssCans become more useful because of the rate of fire or is the CML still king? Do LC become more useful because of the increased attacks at Initiative?

 

More specifically about our match-up:

My opponent's army will be trukks and trukks of boys, some Deffkoptas, maybe a Battlewagon, and a huge grot unit with a Shokk Attack gun. My list is 5 DWT squads, one with full command, special weapons: 3 CML, 2 AC, a Ravenwing squad of three bikes and attack bike, two Typhon speeders and a Whirlwind.

 

Sorry, lots of questions there in a short amount of space, but any help/feedback would be appreciated.

From my experience you'll want to stay out of CC as long as possible, then when necessary be the first to charge. If possible take out his truks & deffoptas as soon as possible and make him footslog across the table to you. The Deffcoptas will be your biggest threat at the beginning of the game, remove them immediately with the Typhoons. Let your CML's deal with the truks, and the Whirli to deal with the mobs.

 

Yes LC's will be better against his troops in I. I would not recommend DWA, turtle up on one of your Obj's in cover with the 3 X CML sqds and the Whirlie. Put the Typhoons on the table immediately behind cover for long range AT use.

 

Reserve the two AC Sqds and the Bikes, try to get the bikes in his rear with a flank move then get the 2 AC Sqds in to support the bikes on or near his weakest Obj. On the turn you get the AC Sqds on, Assault with the bikes tying up his mob, allowing your two DW Sqds to move and assault the following turn.

 

If done correctly you'll have his entire force stretched out across the board unable to support each other, and you can literally pick him apart. Depending on the # of power weapons/klaws he has might determine how many TH/SS you want in your Sqds. At 24" you'll be able to use your SB's.

 

DW are tough against mobs w/o to many PW's, I held a Green Tide of 144 Boys in place for 5 turns with two basic PF Sqds (10 TDA) during an Apoc game last year.

 

Have fun and kill at range until the last minute.

[Tanhausen]

I have an upcoming league game (1850 points) versus an Ork horde and I am really wondering how I am going to handle it. What is the best way for Deathwing heavy armies to deal with the massive horde?

 

Land Raiders. The orks only have 3 things that can touch AV14: the deffrolla on the wagon, the claws and I think the schock cannon (unsure). When I moved from a 7 squad list to 4 + 2 LRC, swarms simply would fold under hurricane bolter fire.

 

Blasts and templates are our friends also... so WW and flamers are the way to go.

 

 

What is the best unit configuration to run? Do you need as many SS (with the exception of the command squad I usually run two per squad), or do you reduce the number to increase storm bolter shots?

 

Starting in the fact that you don't want to be in CC, I'd go a bit more on the LC than TH side. My standard unit (sarge PW, TH, CF, claws, TH) will dent the mob, but lets face it, they will overwhelm you. ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS assault the orks. I'd rather be tarpitted 2 turns than grant and extra say 20 attacks and +1S!!!

 

Do AssCans become more useful because of the rate of fire or is the CML still king? Do LC become more useful because of the increased attacks at Initiative?

 

AC have quite a small range, so I'd stay away from them if possible. Better going for CML, for the range and the flexibilty (S8 is quite a nice asset).

 

More specifically about our match-up:

My opponent's army will be trukks and trukks of boys, some Deffkoptas, maybe a Battlewagon, and a huge grot unit with a Shokk Attack gun.

 

He's not taking a Mech, which is good news for you! I'd say the priorities are first the Battlewagon (if he has a deffrolla) and then deffkoptas (whom you CAN assault, because they will fall like flies!).

 

My list is 5 DWT squads, one with full command, special weapons: 3 CML, 2 AC, a Ravenwing squad of three bikes and attack bike, two Typhon speeders and a Whirlwind.

 

If you can, I'd try and get a Land Raider Crusader: it'll make your life MUCH easier and provide both defense and rapid fire offense.

 

The bikes... I'd go with double flamer. Imagine the outflanking and catching those lootas... :drool The AB, for this game, I'd go with HB, since you can easily catch the rear armour and I'd rather have 3 S5 shots than 1 S10000.

 

Sorry, lots of questions there in a short amount of space, but any help/feedback would be appreciated.

 

Hope it helps... let us know how it goes!

[shabbadoo]

DW vs. Ork horde is gonna suck. You can go one of two ways:

 

• Mostly Shooty- cyclones, stormbolters, power fists(sgts. with power swords) and shooty Dreadnoughts(if you want to use them). Stand off and shoot the living crap out of everything with your mobile and shooty force. Normally a concentration of fire to the point of enemy squad eradication is a good thing, but you won't have enough firepower to do much of that before the enemy gets to grips with you. In this case, it will often be more important to render enemy units vulnerable to assault by reducing their numbers to 10 or less, at which point they become vulnerable to breaking and running, as they will very likely be below 50% and their Ld will begin to drop. If such small squads actually get to close combat piecemeal then they will not be very effective. Belial and the Command Squad with their lots of attacks will do bad things to them once they get closer. You may wish to arm this squad with a couple TH & SH, but give the rest LC's as you will want to kill lots of boyz before they can throw their four Str 4 attacks each at Initiative 3 when they charge.
   
   
  
• Almost All Choppy- Mixed squads with 1 TH & SS(just in case), a heavy flamer and PF, and the rest lightning claws(including Belial). Everything deployed in Land Raider Crusaders. The LRs shoot things up(weakening them just enough to be very susceptible to a close combat loss), the Terminators off-load, the HF roasts a chunk o' green, and the LCs go first and kill more stuff, weakening the Ork response enough that they may lose combat. If the Ork player is using Tankbustas, keep your Land Raider the heck away from Assault range. The rokkit launchas and squig bombs won't get you, but the two tankhammers and slew of tankbusta bombz will. Now, you may want to purposely head for such units if they are surrounded by lots of other Orks, as an exploding Land Raider could potentially take a lot of stuff with it. That would be a last resort sort of thing though. :D
  

In either case, DW Assault is pretty much a death wish, so don't do it. You want everything out there and active. Deploy everything, and use a refused flank tactic, forcing the Ork horde to get in its own way. If objectives are in the scenario, contest one and dominate enough others to win. A smart Ork horde player will have a balance of Shoota Boyz and Slugga Boyz, at least one large unit of Grots to provide cover/suck up any initial DW charge, and not mobs of Nobz or 'Ard Boyz(too many DW things ignore their armor/instant kill them). Whatever the scenario, it is going to be very tough facing an Ork horde with pure DW(i.e. Terminators, Land Raiders, Dreadnoughts). Be prepared for total carnage.

[MagicMan]

Id consider taking something which can drop in and get rid of the Mek with Shokk attack gun.

 

The guys very cheap, something like 105 points, but he can (almost) reliably chuck out an AP2 high strength large blast template every turn, which honestly doesn't sound good for a Terminator based army.

[breng77]

I have to go with Tanhausen on this, if you are changing your list 2-3 land raider crusaders will really put a hurting on orks. I would lean toward Cyclones on all SB termies, use your 24" range as well as the guns off of the crusaders to shoot orks, when the orks get within 18", and you cannot get out, hop the termies inside the land raiders.

[Corton]

I play Dark Angels, but I play Orks too-particularly Speed Freeks. You are going to see a lot of flat-out movement from the trukks, and scouting or even outflanking maneuvers from the Koptas. Thats just the way it is. If you try the distance shooting crap that a lot of people on here are suggesting, you're dead. Simple as that. This is where reserves are going to come into play.

 

Keep one to two squads in reserve. In fact, use one as a sacrificial lamb. Dump their bony(pun!) butts into the Orks deployment zone, it really confuses most Ork players when you do that (I personally hate it myself). You will need to stay fluid on this, so I suggest trying to take on part of the army, not all of it at once.

 

In as far as shooting goes-ignore bikes. I know everyone tells you blow them up-ignore them. They are not as big a threat to a model limited army as trukk-borne troops. Nob bikers, they can be dealt with later-especially if you can counter the trukks and boyz early. Missile will be your friend, and heavy flamers are awesome when you deal with Orks (Nob bikers save AND cover save is ignored with Heavy Flamers).

[breng77]

Actually DW can deal ok with a mostly truck ork army for 2 reasons. 1.) Trucks die to missiles very easily (even with KFF), just immobilizing them is enough. 2.) Trucks don't cary enough boyz to scare Terminators, squads of 11 boys are terrible, especially if you lean toward more claws, and a cyclone, or at least some I4 attacks, you can kill enough orks before they swing that you will win combat, and the orks will run off the table. Ork Boy units really need to be around 20 strong to be scary.

[ilnar]

Breng is apparently the only one here who can read,

Orks in trucks can only be 11 strong, not particularly scary for terms to deal with, assault cannon or CML to the rear of the truck, charge in, lightning claws are your friend, hell, a couple of stormbolter squads will decimate them enough to make them run away. Saying that, a full unit on the charge puts out 40 attacks, that's 10 wounds before the power claw. Scary, but if you deal with the trucks you should be ok, since they fall like wheat to bolter fire,

 

Things to be very careful of,

Burner boys in battlewagons, not so much the charge, though that's scary too, but he can get 50/60 hits easily if the battlewagon gets close enough for a flamer. 25/30 saves is a dead unit of termies.

Same goes for Nobs in a wagon, scary expensive, but they can ruin you in CC

 

 

 

My advice? Take the second turn, DWA in behind his trucks, which will probably race forward towards your whirlwind/speeders/ravenwing in your deployment zone.

if you can stay 19 inches away so much the better. CML and ass cannon should be able to destroy his battlewagons if he has any, trucks if he doesn't, assuming he charges forward first turn, you should be able to keep far enough away to prevent a return charge if you fail to kill the trucks, you then have 2 armies, one behind him and one in front, he should be easy pickings after that.

 

Remember your typhoons get 2 S8 shots each as well, and can still fire after moving 12" side armor shots shouldn't be too hard.

 

Basically, take out the trucks, if he's on foot he's easy prey since you outrange him.

[breng77]

A squad of 11 Boyz charging 5 Non LC termies (just say TH/SS since that is what is in most all comers)

 

40 attacks = 20 hits = 10 wounds = 1.6 dead termies so say 2.

Klaw 4 attacks= 2 hits = 1.4 more dead termies so say another 1 or 2

 

3 termies = 6 attacks = 3 hits, and 3 dead orks, so with TH/SS the termies tie or lose.

 

If the termies have claws

15 attacks = 7.5 hits = 5.6 dead orks (before they swing) say 5 (at worst)

So 5 orks swing 20 times = 10 hits = 5 wound, kills a termi (maybe)

The nob kills 1 or 2 more.

Termies win by 3 or 4, Orks take leadership and run (more than likely)

[ilnar]

Exactly, though I've NEVER seen DW termies run THSS in 5's hell even in a crusader I'd rather not.

Always charge rather then be charged,

[Steel Company]

I play a lot of Orkz in my area, trukk lists are much easier then foot sloggers. I've got one buddy that runs on average 3 squads of 30 shoota boyz with nobz with klaws, and two warbosses with klaws.... that's a normal list for him, needless to say my DW does not do too well against it. it's just because of the raw number of attacks back even after I charge him, that bring me down.

[breng77]

Exactly, though I've NEVER seen DW termies run THSS in 5's hell even in a crusader I'd rather not.

Always charge rather then be charged,

 

Mostly TH/SS squads is what I see most often because if competes very well with top tier armies (Wolves, Guard, GKs, etc.), it is not a balanced army per say, but against most tournament fields you will do well.

[ilnar]

Exactly, though I've NEVER seen DW termies run THSS in 5's hell even in a crusader I'd rather not.

Always charge rather then be charged,

 

Mostly TH/SS squads is what I see most often because if competes very well with top tier armies (Wolves, Guard, GKs, etc.), it is not a balanced army per say, but against most tournament fields you will do well.

 

If your gonna do a mech army in crusaders I guess,

But I can't contemplate not taking some shooting,

Ideally,

Chain fist

Cyclone bolter/ or ass cannon

Hammer

Sarge sword

Bolter

[Brother Kovash]

The best tip I can give you to is to shoot down one squad at a time. If you can start forcing morale checks against orks, most often you'll force them to flee because of their low leadership. And always stay out of combat as long as possible.

 

It looks like you have plenty of template weapons floating around, so try to pop those trukks first, then blast away with all your missiles.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Link: 3++ Hordes how to

[breng77]

If your gonna do a mech army in crusaders I guess,

But I can't contemplate not taking some shooting,

 

5 TH/SS guys with a cyclone has some shooting. Against mech heavy tournaments it really has all the shooting you are likely to need. Now if you happen to run into a horde ork player (fairly rare at least where I play, we see more mech ork players) you will be in trouble, but running the 5 TH/SS squads is a gamble that you are more likely to face Guard or an MEQ opponent in most tournaments.

[Tanhausen]

but running the 5 TH/SS squads is a gamble that you are more likely to face Guard or an MEQ opponent in most tournaments.

 

Or DE and their beautiful lances and overwhelming shots (1s DO exist and only 1 squad has FnP)

 

Or Daemons and their incinerators

 

Or even Tau with rapid fire and marking drones

 

5 x DW full TH/SS is definetly not a build I'd consider extremely competitive. Its a tough nut to crack, but most all comers solid builds and in hands of decent players will give you a hard time when facing "new" codex.

 

Its fun and fluffy though, and I enjoyed A LOT my pure DW list... I miss the terminator spam :)

[breng77]

I would not really be worried about Tau or Daemons, Venom Spam DE comes down to who gets to shoot first, and how effective that shooting is. 6 TH/SS squads could bring down 6 DE vehicles in one round of shooting (it is not super likely, but I have done it, if one missile hits from every squad it is likely to penetrate, and 50% to destroy said vehicle, now 2 of the venoms should make their saves, but that is still 2 dead, 2 more immobilized, cannot shoot and move, or losing a gun, and that is actually a little worse than odds, but since one ML could miss completely, and one could hit twice, I figured it only fair to go with the worse odds).

 

THe last tourney I went to had 2 DE players, 4 DW players, one ork player 1 nid player, no Tau, Daemons, or necrons. Everything else was guard or MEQ (20 other players) So if I drop my self I had an 19/27= 70% chance to face MEQ or Guard, which came out true for me as I faced the Nid player and 2 MEQ players, if you count DW as MEQ to an extent then it would be more like 23/27= 85%. Both DE players were in the bottom Half of the tables, and the Nid player finished in the middle, all the top tables were MEQ players/Guard, and one ork player. In my experience, I have little trouble against most armies with my DW (which usually are running 4-5 TH/SS in each squad, with Cyclones, I tried fewer TH/SS but the squads end up losing out in combat to PW weilding foes.)

[ilnar]

, I tried fewer TH/SS but the squads end up losing out in combat to PW weilding foes.)

Seriously? How many units are entirely equipped with power weapons?

With the exception of the DW, LW, the tyranids and the grey knights, no other army can field exclusively power weaponed armies,

Hell only the termy wings do it often.

1 or 2 storm shields in a unit is more than enough to take a hidden power fist or claw.

While leaving you enough daka to clear out everything else,

DW work best as a close range shooty army which can assault well.

[Tanhausen]

But I'm assuming you're an average to proficient player :D

 

I'm saying full DW TH/SS is not competitve because of the problems we all know, but just to recap the main:

 

- reduced mobility

- low model count

- low shooting output (CML FAQ has helped, but its not an end to this situation)

- low number of attacks in CC (though superior quality)

- low initiative.

 

The only pro's they have are durability and that all the attacks are power weapons.

 

So if you face an average/proficient player handling swarms or high body counts AND is not fully CC oriented, you're probably going to run into trouble.

 

Disregarding vindicators and lemans and stuff like that which is what everybody thinks is the ani-terminator unit, sheer numbers will make you fall.

 

You say Tau will not pose a threat to full DW... well, if you get say 2 squads of FW with 10 men each (don't know how many you can fit on a transport) that land within RF range, with drone markings...

 

20 guys, 2 shots, 4+2+ to wound, rerolling to hit: that's 12.5 wounds... at least 2 dead terminators, and he really didn't devote that many points

 

Vs orks with, I'm not even going to do the numbers with 15 lootas but... we all know how painful they are.

 

BTW, in my area you don't have THAT many IG...I'll check tomorrow at the tournament how it is this time, but it seems I'll be seeing wacky lists (there is a team tournament in july without SC and people are going to try bizarre stuff).

[breng77]

I guess if comes down to what we see, but how are Tau FWs getting 4+ 2+, it is 4+ 3+ for pulse rifles (I don't know of any way to improve weapon strength with Tau.) . SO 20 Guys hit 10 times, wound 6.7 wounds, which averages 1 dead termi, then depending on how those 20 guys are deployed within 12" of you, you assault both squads, and wipe them both out. I agree orks, but even shooty foot DW lose out to orks but as I said in most tourneys I see 1-5 ork players out of 30+ people.

 

As of All PW weilding units, you get them in DW, Daemons, any other list running terminators (I am not saying it has to be the whole army) then there are guard armies shooting lots of AP 1 and 2. In addition the fewer TH/SS guys you have the fewer that make in into combat. If you have 1 or 2 per unit unless you never take regular armor saves on those TH/SS guys, and you never get hit by AP 1 or 2 weapons, those guys don't both make it into combat, and then you take fist/PW wounds on 5+ invul saves, and lose more termies.

 

I agree though DW has all the issues you listed, which is why IMO it has served me better to play up their advantages instead of trying to be in the middle of the road at everything. (2 or 3 storm bolters per squad don't help against most armies.), I don't really play DW much anymore as I just don't find them to be all that fun, the army comes down to, if I make my saves I beat you, if I roll poorly, I lose, if I face horde Orks I lose.

[Tanhausen]

About Tau, I was talking from memory... wasn't there an option to improve S? If not, I stand corrected (haven't played them for a while).

 

And I agree that jack of all trades is DEFINETELY not an option for DW. My standard config (PW sarge, TH, CF, Claws, TH CML) is as far as I'd take it... and I'm definetly thinking about swapping the sarge to TH also (I like the claws and PF).

 

About orks vs DW... I've smashed orks when I played 4 x DW, double LRC, 2 Dreads vindicator. Same with doublewing. but that's for another day ^_^