How would you tweak the codex

[greatcrusade08]

Do GK need stronger melee? i highly doubt it...

 

the current GK dex is a very good codex, i dont see the point in wishlisting.

 

im in agreement with FB, alot of these posts are nothing more than cake eating.. IMO the GK dex carries just the right balance of strengths and weaknesses, but is very hard to beat.. if you change that dynamic you could easily make them overpowered.

clear up the rules issues by all means, but leave codex building to the pros..

 

and before we get a load of trash talk about matt ward and co, you have to remember that he wrote many other 5th ed dexes.. keeping things balanced to other armies is very important

[Judanas]

My Tweaks:

- Nemesis Warding Stave

Change to increases existing Invulnerable Save by -2 (same mechanic as Force Sword), remove CC restriction

 

So you want the HQ units to have a 2+ Inv save constantly? 4+ from iron halo would become 2+. The only other units with a 2++ at both range and melee, Archons and Cannoness' both have serious restrictions there, with Sisters needing to spend a Faith point and make a Leadership test and Archons loosing it after the first fail.

 

- Dreadnoughts

Add Librarian Dreadnought Option to HQ choices

Add Heavy Incinerator, Heavy Psycannon and Heavy Psilencer to weapons loadout options

 

- Dreadknight

Remove Ranged Weapons options

Add Storm Shield option

 

Dreadnaught as dedicated ranged, Dreadnight as melee? I can sorta see that, though I am VERY Hesitant about giving a monsterous creature a 3++ Inv save constantly. It would soak an insane amount of fire with a 2+/3++. I can't think of much that would really win a fight with that, even the 'nid monsterous creatures.

[Hackbar]

Do GK need stronger melee? i highly doubt it...

 

the current GK dex is a very good codex, i dont see the point in wishlisting.

 

im in agreement with FB, alot of these posts are nothing more than cake eating.. IMO the GK dex carries just the right balance of strengths and weaknesses, but is very hard to beat.. if you change that dynamic you could easily make them overpowered.

clear up the rules issues by all means, but leave codex building to the pros..

 

and before we get a load of trash talk about matt ward and co, you have to remember that he wrote many other 5th ed dexes.. keeping things balanced to other armies is very important

 

I can't really argue with this, much as I want to. The GK dex is pretty solid without being OP. There are just some design decisions that I really don't understand, and I tried to give reasonable (not saying they're perfectly balanced) alternatives in the spirit of the thread.

 

Storm shields have been a particular pet peeve. Long ago I bought parts and models to convert a few TH/SS GKT based on the perfectly legal option in the previous codex. That option, and thus that money is gone now, I can't get it back. Why? Balance? Codex: Space Wolves has shown that Storm Shields can be balanced such that they are a useful option without being so good that they're the automatic choice for all or even most units.

 

I'm thrilled to have an up-to-date, balanced, possibly even competitive (though the more competitive players at my local GW would say not really) codex for the army that got me interested in 40k, but some of the design decisions will have me shaking my head for years.

[XaClocKWorKoX]

yea the only think i would like is the GKT have the option to drop stormbolter and NFW for SS and NFH but with the new SS id give it this option 5 pt per every model in a squad. ( kind of like the MC in a paladin squad )

 

side rule if you make a full SS/TH squad NO banners can be taken ( you are hitting at S8 most models will be istagibbed from double S vs T rule ) botherhood still works to make them S10 but add something like a quicksilver rule that makes the TH hit at I4 or I3 rather than I1 from the weapon

 

Side rule to that ( with pyshic test is passed and you can hit at S8 ) it will not knock down the squad to I1 also

 

 

food for thought

[Freman Bloodglaive]

That said, making psilencers poison (4+) would make them potentially worthwhile. Still not as good as a psycannon, but as long as it was cheap then it could exist as a viable option.

[Gentlemanloser]

im in agreement with FB, alot of these posts are nothing more than cake eating.. IMO the GK dex carries just the right balance of strengths and weaknesses, but is very hard to beat.. if you change that dynamic you could easily make them overpowered.

clear up the rules issues by all means, but leave codex building to the pros..

 

I disagree. :P

 

There's a lot of bad balance in the GK dex.

 

GKT Terminators for example.

 

Issues aside, there are many options in the Codex that would benefit heavily from tweaking. Like the Brotherhood Champion. He really should be an Elite slot choice. Strikes should have Scout or Infiltrate. And GKs should have some way of resisting Perils tests, that's a gross oversight. If we can't get Drop Pods, then we really need some way of getting x amount of units in on first turn (like Drop Pod Assault).

 

The Paladin Apothecary is too expensive.

 

There are some things that should be toned down.

 

Halberds shouldn't be I6. That's far too good. I5 (to compete with FC) would have been reasonable. DCA need a nerfing too. :P

 

There was an old thread about changes tot he GK dex, I put a lot more in there. ;)

 

Edit;

 

Val's thread

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=226662

[cptphoenixck]

I agree with Gentlemanloser that halberds should change to +1 int.

Having said that I think Mr Ward has for the first time in his life put out a relatively balanced codex.

 

Though perhaps all PA squads should have 2 attacks base, after all PA squads are apparently just as experienced as GKT squads.

 

Also warrior accolytes should have cheaper, alot cheaper wargear.

A WA with SS and PW costs almost 30pts, a crusader half that. We were all assured that this codex would allow us to keep using our old models....

 

Other than that though I'm pretty happy with the ruleset. Though I wish they'd errata the fluff and tell us all to ignore it..... I know each codex being the best thing ever

keeps the tiny tots buying it, but seriously, just no. Pray he doesn't do the IG codex otherwise we'll have Ursarkar E. Creed headbutting Abbadon into the ground and

carving Jarran Kell's name into his heart. Oh and M'kar the reborn will be shot to pieces in some suitably heroic way by a lone guardsman.

[BrotherWasted]

Dropping the halberds to +1I would be fine, as long as the assault abilities of the Codex are improved elsewhere. Wider access to Furious Charge, Rad Grenades or Psykotroke would be nice compromises.

[Gentlemanloser]

Hammerhand and Halberds are our FC. :tu:

[Oiad]

True. In addition, Furious Charge doesn't seem very Grey Knight-esque. Leave the berserk attitudes to the BA, BT and SW. GKs seem much more coolheaded by comparison. :lol:

 

It's probably hopeless getting into this the topic but there are some good ideas here which deserve kudos. As well as Gentlemanloser, Warloch's strong list is a good example of what Morollan was pointing out about tweaking rather than full-out buffing the rules. Some of those suggestions are spot on to what I would have listed. Hmm, surprised no one's mentioned reinstating WS5 as the standard yet...

[embalancer]

Id get Matt Ward to give the money back to games work shop for the Peice of **** Codex he gave them and us. im having such a hard time trying to find any thing in this book that i Like and want to feild he has ruined the most interesting army in the game.

 

why do all other Chapters get storm sheilds and the most techy chapter say sorry no we dont want this amazing device that can protect us from a greater deamons attacks giving us a better chance to kill it our much worse defence will do us just fine thank you very much????

 

and why do the Terminators only have hammer hand and not Warp quake as well every other unit has 3 powers ( including activating their weapons)

 

the Inquisitors and Assasins i think are pretty much perfect but they are not something i would want tobuild an army around

 

The reason the GK don't get storm shields is that it would negate the dangers of using psychic powers if you have a 66% chance of deflecting a POW. Each army has it's weaknesses - Eldar can't take a hit. Orks can't shoot with any form of accuracy. Tau don't really do CC. GK's weakness is that it does have a lack of inulvn saves and leaves a huge gap in the fluff. and lets face it if the biggest issue most people have is with the fluff then it does show that the rules themselves are pretty good.

 

Things i would change -

 

1. Give warding staff some protection POW +5 or +4 maybe

 

2. Alter the Purgators, I know it's not really their fault. Psyflemen just add a large amount to an army with long range attacks, light armour popping and ID any troops that aren't MEQ as well as a 50% nullify for all direct psychic attacks and all for a 155 pts .... you have to admit that not bad. Not to mention the dreadknight who i'm not quite as impressed with but monstorous creatures that can teleport half way across the battlefield aint too bad.

 

Maybe turning the purgators into psychic artillary as GK do seem to lack in that department

 

... thats all i have for the moment

[Gentlemanloser]

The reason the GK don't get storm shields is that it would negate the dangers of using psychic powers if you have a 66% chance of deflecting a POW

 

You have to reroll a sucessful Perils save.

[Oiad]

EDIT- Ninja'd! While I agree that Storm Shields all-round is too powerful (at least without some 'character penalty' as in other SM codieces) as Gentlemanloser pointed out with Perils you have to re-roll successful invulnerable saves, so those percentages there are a bit off.

 

Aside from henchmen units which cover up for many of these deficiencies, GKs have a few weaknesses I can think of including average protection; too many abilities/wargear entries are very focused towards specific units, a lack of long range and armour-piercing (at range) options on infantry, low model count due to high points cost. I'm sure others can think up a few more, but really as a focus on being an expensive, elite army only that last one would be required to make us fair, imo. After all there are quite a few GK players who prefer taking 'pure' armies, leaving aside Inquisitors and their men.

[jamsight]

The changes I would make are :-

 

Nemesis force swords

On a psykic check may re-roll all to wounds to make them abit more useful to power armor marines

 

I would increase all Ld by 1 so a Grey knights would be Ld 9 and a justicar 10 to reflect the fact they have trained their minds to be stronger

 

Make Paladins stubborn since they are the anvil to the Puifiers' hammer

 

Let the strike squads have a teleport homers so that they can do what they are meant to do establish a breach head

 

Total re-write of the Psylancer so that it's not a crappy mini assault cannon wanabe.

Range 24 str 7 ap 3 heavy1 lance could twist my arm too make it ap4/2 (sorry if this is against the forum rules)

 

Give Brotherhood Champions 2 wounds and increase points cost to compensate

 

Cut the Montarion bit out of Draigo's story since eveyone is up in arms about it or explain in greater detail how he managed it

 

Change Crowe so that he carries the sword on a quest to destroy it or is the reluctant bearer of it for a grand purpose or something.

 

Bring back classic Aegis rule or give a save against perils of the warp

 

Let the henchmen add stat increases again and add Stormtroopers but only if a Inquisitor in leading the force

 

I proberly just doubled the points cost of Grey Knights

[BrotherWasted]

I am more than happy to wishlist in a thread that is intended to discuss how one would tweak the Codex. While the current Codex is certainly quite balanced and obviously a force to be reckoned with, it isn't how I envision the Grey Knights to be.

 

I don't envision regular GKs only being as skilled in melee as a regular Marine. Either WS5, an additional attack, or the return of True Grit would have been the ideal ways to separate GKs from normal Marines. You could even up the points cost of a normal GK by 2 or so to make this happen.

 

I have always envisioned the Grey Knights as assault-oriented units with decent firepower; after all, you don't banish Daemons by just shooting them. There are reasons they have Force Weapons.

 

I am fine with the shooting aspect of the Knights. Sure, I would love to see that AP-improving ammo I suggested, but that could really be quite silly.

 

Knights just need more assault capability to really be where I see them. Of course the SCs need some re-writing too.

[worloch]

My Tweaks:

- Nemesis Warding Stave

Change to increases existing Invulnerable Save by -2 (same mechanic as Force Sword), remove CC restriction

 

So you want the HQ units to have a 2+ Inv save constantly? 4+ from iron halo would become 2+. The only other units with a 2++ at both range and melee, Archons and Cannoness' both have serious restrictions there, with Sisters needing to spend a Faith point and make a Leadership test and Archons loosing it after the first fail.

 

- Dreadnoughts

Add Librarian Dreadnought Option to HQ choices

Add Heavy Incinerator, Heavy Psycannon and Heavy Psilencer to weapons loadout options

 

- Dreadknight

Remove Ranged Weapons options

Add Storm Shield option

 

Dreadnaught as dedicated ranged, Dreadnight as melee? I can sorta see that, though I am VERY Hesitant about giving a monsterous creature a 3++ Inv save constantly. It would soak an insane amount of fire with a 2+/3++. I can't think of much that would really win a fight with that, even the 'nid monsterous creatures.

 

 

IIRC, only the Grandmaster and the Brother Captain have access to Iron Halo's. Everyone else is tooling around with the Terminator armor 5++. The intent of my tweaks with the Force Sword and Warding Stave are to fill the gap (a gap I perceive any how) of protecting these high point cost models. Since we don't have access to Storm Shields on our Terminators, I feel getting a 4++ with Force Swords is a fair trade off for not getting a different NFW is still thematic to the army. Limiting it to CC only feels strange to me. Easily explained as using the sword as focus to create a psychic barrier that helps to extend the protection already present. A Warding Stave giving -2 to the Inv Save would be nice for the Librarian for instance, or perhaps in a Termie or Paladin squad where the 5++ would become a 3++.

 

I do agree that a 2++ all the time on the couple of IC's would be too much, but that is resolved in a very simple manner - take the Iron Halo's away. That dumps them straight back in to the 5++ bucket, where they could get 4++ all the time with a Force Sword, or 3++ with a Warding Stave. Not a perfect solution, but we're talking about tweaks here, not a redesign <_<.

 

 

I think Dreadnought's should be versatile, and be able to be ranged or melee based. I don't see any real good reason a dreadnought couldn't have those weapons, other than that they want to sell Dreadknights. A Dreadknight comes w/ Nemesis Doomfists, same as a Dreadnought after all.

 

As to the 2+/3++ on the DK, I agree that is scary and could potentially soak a lot of fire. On the other hand, it would have no ranged options, and be fairly expensive, so it should be kind of scary. I think a lot of things could still threaten it enough, but perhaps simply giving it a 4++ Inv Save option would be better.

[andrew55]

I would make stuff more expensive points wise.

It is cheaper to field a 10 man squad who all have power weapons and the cyborg munitions upgrade to give them str 5 storm bolters (something like 220 points!) than it is for me to field a 10 man assault squad with 1 power weapons (like 250 points)

 

in any fight the GK's would win this.

 

I would make demon hammers at least as expensive as a powerfist. 10 points for DH 25 for powerfist!!

how can this be right? a demonhammer is better and supposedly rarer than a powerfist so why are they so chap?

 

GKs on average are an entire squad of sargeants who are better than sargeants.

You get a 10 man squad with nemesis force powerweapons for cheaper than a 10 man squad with 1 powerweapon, plasmagun and lascannon!

definately needs some serious balancing act since GK's have been released they have gone up an entire powerlevel and left nearly everything behind!

[Gentlemanloser]

To be honest, I'm actually finding this to be true.

 

Maybe it's because my group isn't super competitive, and play mostly for fun. But I'm now wiping the floor versus anyone I face, seemingly no matter what I field.

 

My mates feel for me. As I've been the whiping boy of the group for so long, and they really wanted me to get a nice new fun and competitive Dex, but they all *hate* facing the new Grey Knights.

 

They don't get any fun from it, and it's starting to ruin 40k for us. At the moment, they just aim to kill the NDK in every match, and claim a moral victory if they do.

 

I'm really starting to feel that our Strike's, with the options for HH, S5 Bolters, all power weapons (force wepaosn at that!) cheap Hammers, Psycannons and a 3+ save are undercosted. And I6 on Termies/Pallies and Pruifiers is too much. It's too good. While races like Deldar can get I6 (and with Incubi I6 Power Weapons), they suffer from being fragile, with T3 (and S3, unless bolstered by FC).

 

Grey Knights have the great Marine stat line, and don't have this drawback. With Assault Weapons, even footslogging, mobility (or lack of) isn't really a drawback either. Especially with S8 TL Autocannons for backup. Then we get the added bonus of things like our 'nades.

 

It's left my group wondering exactly what the GK weakness is supposed to be.

 

They can't find one.

[embalancer]

To be honest, I'm actually finding this to be true.

 

Maybe it's because my group isn't super competitive, and play mostly for fun. But I'm now wiping the floor versus anyone I face, seemingly no matter what I field.

 

My mates feel for me. As I've been the whiping boy of the group for so long, and they really wanted me to get a nice new fun and competitive Dex, but they all *hate* facing the new Grey Knights.

 

They don't get any fun from it, and it's starting to ruin 40k for us. At the moment, they just aim to kill the NDK in every match, and claim a moral victory if they do.

 

I'm really starting to feel that our Strike's, with the options for HH, S5 Bolters, all power weapons (force wepaosn at that!) cheap Hammers, Psycannons and a 3+ save are undercosted. And I6 on Termies/Pallies and Pruifiers is too much. It's too good. While races like Deldar can get I6 (and with Incubi I6 Power Weapons), they suffer from being fragile, with T3 (and S3, unless bolstered by FC).

 

Grey Knights have the great Marine stat line, and don't have this drawback. With Assault Weapons, even footslogging, mobility (or lack of) isn't really a drawback either. Especially with S8 TL Autocannons for backup. Then we get the added bonus of things like our 'nades.

 

It's left my group wondering exactly what the GK weakness is supposed to be.

 

They can't find one.

 

our weakness is a lack of inv saves so AP weapons (plasma and melta) will cut through most GK quite easily. What other armies do your friends play?

[Gentlemanloser]

Marines, Chaos, Eldar, Deldar and sometimes a smattering of Orks/Necrons. But the last two are very rarely bought out to play these days.

 

To be honest, I'm not really worried about Plasma. Cover saves and transports deal with those nicely, and of course, I prioritise plasma squads deaths. :P

 

Or I get into CC quickly, and mop up form there (Although I keep trying to explain my army isn't CC orientated, but is more shooty. They just don't accept that...).

 

Besides, unless you're the new Deathwing, and field a mass of TH/Ss termies (whi get torrented), what Marine army has a wealth of Invulnerable saves?

[worloch]

It's not that other Marine armies have a plethora of ++ saves, it is that they are cheaper by the body, so they have more total wounds to absorb those hits.

 

To respond to point cost differences - you can't look at it in a vacuum, it's really not that simple. First, take a marine. Now give him a bunch of cool stuff, but don't increase his defenses. No bonus to saves, wounds or any special rules like Feel No Pain that make him able to take more hits. This guy is more expensive than a normal marine of course, but gets a price break for what I call the "all your eggs in one basket" aspect.

 

If a "normal" SS GK dies, you lose that Storm Bolter and NFW. If a normal tac Marine dies, you lose a bolter. And anything that could kill the Marine will kill the GK just as dead. So you get a price break to represent that point investment in a model without any risk mitigation.

 

From there, you look an upgrades. Sure a DH is less than a Powerfist, but I'm going from a NFW to a DH, not from a Close Combat weapon to a Power Fist. I have already paid an investment in to the weapon with the initial point cost, so the upgrade costs less. A lot of people have also argued that Falchion's shouldn't be ruled to give +2 attacks because they are under priced for adding an additional 2 Power Weapon attacks. They fail to account that we have again already paid for the NFW, so we're only paying for additional attacks. A pistol is an additional attack for a model that already has Power Weapon, and is much less than Falchion's.

 

 

 

Anyhow, I can see how Marines might need to change up a little to account for what a GK force is likely to bring, but if you're DE, Eldar and Orks/Necrons opponents have been playing competitively against the Marines already, they shouldn't be too hard up against the GK's.

[Oiad]

Indeed, especially on the points about the NFWs. I remember number6 mentioning in another thread (something I kinda agree with) that you can't really cross-compare codex pricing either. Terminators despite minor differences differ in cost from codex-to-codex, etc; Each codex inhabits it's own costing universe in a way.

[Gentlemanloser]

It's not that other Marine armies have a plethora of ++ saves, it is that they are cheaper by the body, so they have more total wounds to absorb those hits.

 

Well, this is really only Tac versus Strike. Where they cost 4/5 of what we do.

 

Our Termies are the same cost, as are our Rhino's/Razors, Dreads, SR.

 

We can build a list that's very close to Marine bodies, if we wanted to.

 

And does the 4/5 reduction in cost make up for the vastly increase killing power of a SB and FW? I don't think it does.

 

If you had the option to pay 4 points to give a Tac marine a SB, S5 and a Force Weapon, would you? Or rather, who wouldn't?

[mlund]

Every time I start resenting how many points I'm dumping into a 1W model with no invulnerable save against shooting I remember that real game tables are supposed to have 25% cover and that on a real game table a 4+ cover save is ubiquitous outside of being flanked, lashed (yeah, good luck with that), or caught in the open after wiping out an opponent in close combat. Then I remember that major tournaments seem to never bother to respect the rulebook and actually provide tables with 25% cover and I feel bad for people bringing Grey Knights to them.

 

- Marty Lund

[Gentlemanloser]

Well tonight, our Deldar player mentioned he'd made an 85 Mini Deldar list with 40 darklight weapons, just to play versus me. ;)

 

So I guess soon I'll find out if;

 

1) GKs can outshoot the Deldar

 

2) Cover and Transports really are enough to deal with massed AP2 shooting. ;)