How would you tweak the codex

[templargdt]

A lot of this has been said, but,

 

- Option for Artificer Armor on GM/BC

- Librarian Dreadnought

- Psilencers given a useful set of rules

- Clearly state Falcions rules

- Heavy Psycannon 36" Heavy 6 or something like that, for the points cost I am never taking one on a NDK

- 2 Wounds on Brotherhood Champion

- A Chaplain in the HQ section

- Psychic hood as good as the Space Wolves.

[Brother Xeones]

I actually think the rules are, overall, quite balanced. And I'm not disgruntled with the result, but not every option in the book is viable or well thought-out. Here are a few suggestions in random order:

 

1. Psilencers: how about a S6 AP3 24" Assault 1, Blast? Perhaps twin-linked against daemon targets? Heavy Psilencer changed to S6 AP3 24" Assault 1, Large Blast

2. I know there is no precedence for this next suggestion, but I think it would have been nice to see Strike, Interceptor and perhaps Purifier squads be able to exchange their stormbolter with a wrist-mounted boltpistol for free. The pistols would grant an extra attack when combined with either the sword or falchions, but falchions would be clarified to only grant +1 attack. Thus, you'd get the ability to increase your attacks to up to +2 but you'd lose a lot of your ranged ability if you did.

3. Slight reduction in cost of some options for warrior acolytes such as flamers, powerswords, powerfists, and armor upgrades. Given the lower stats of these troops, the effectiveness of these options is also reduced (except for flamers which I simply think are too expensive currently.

4. Dreadknight Nemisis Greatsword to grant 4++ in CC. Points adjusted as needed.

5. BHC's Rapier Strike no longer required to be directed against ICs or MCs.

6. Warp Quake reduced to within 6" of the unit.

7. Warp Rift should not be an auto pen ability. Even a S10 lance would be better.

8. BCs can exchange Termie armor for artificer armor. Can take PT.

9. Techmarines should negate Mind-lock too

10. Paladin Apothicary upgrade reduced to +35 points

 

Here are slightly more substantial changes I would have liked to see (i.e. major (and pointless) wishlisting)

1. Adjust the way Inquisitors work. Any Inquisitor can take Henchmen as troops, but each Inquisitor may take one each of the following units depending on affiliation. These units would function as henchmen do now for the purposes of list building:

Ordo Malleus Inquisitor: REAL Inquisitorial Stormtroopers (ie. BS4 elite troops)

Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor: Priests (3-per slot assigned to a Henchmen Unit before deployment. Grants Rage, Prefered Enemy, and FNP)

Ordo Xenos Inquisitor: Deathwatch Marines (aka Sternguard)

2. In accordance with the above, Coteaz makes Stormtroopers "Troops" and removes the 0-1 per OM Inquisitor stipulation.

3. Valkyries made available for every Inquisitor HQ taken. Would still take up a FA slot, but would not be available in squadrons --so max of 2 per army.

[worloch]

It's not that other Marine armies have a plethora of ++ saves, it is that they are cheaper by the body, so they have more total wounds to absorb those hits.

 

Well, this is really only Tac versus Strike. Where they cost 4/5 of what we do.

 

Our Termies are the same cost, as are our Rhino's/Razors, Dreads, SR.

 

We can build a list that's very close to Marine bodies, if we wanted to.

 

And does the 4/5 reduction in cost make up for the vastly increase killing power of a SB and FW? I don't think it does.

 

If you had the option to pay 4 points to give a Tac marine a SB, S5 and a Force Weapon, would you? Or rather, who wouldn't?

 

Actually, last time I checked our Rhino's and Razor's are 5 points more expensive to account for the Fortitude Psychic Power w/ Psychic Pilot. Don't recall on the SR.

 

Close to those numbers but not the same, and a Strike Squad to Tactical Squad is about the fairest comparison you can make - Power Armored Marines in the Troop slot.

 

Yes, the increased cost on the GK's does justify the increased killing power. How often do you think you are actually using that FW as anything other than a PW? To further the point, what are you doing with it on your 1 attack base troops? And while assault weapons are nice, GK SS's aren't exactly dying to get in to assault either.

 

Who wouldn't pay 4 points to give a Tac marine a SB, psychic power, and a Force Weapon? Me, and I would go so far as to say plenty of others. Tac Marines do their job well with what they have - why would I pay more for them if I didn't need to? Don't forget, this isn't an option - you don't get to take those cheaper marines in low point games where you just want the bodies; you're paying those 4 points more per model no matter what. I can also take options on Tac Marines I can't on GK's. Missile launcher for versatility (Frag or Krak as needed), Plasma guns, etc. A straight comparison of points isn't fair as it doesn't take in to account the rest of Codex.

 

 

My comparison was to state that in a general way, most Marine armies are going to be fielding more bodies than us. And that means greater resiliency on the tabletop.

[Gentlemanloser]

Yes, they're 5 points more expensive. For a cheaper and better Extra armour. I left that out on purpose.

 

We consider 2 points per marine for a S5 SB to be a bargin, and you don't think marine players would consider 4 points for only a Power Weapon (not to mention S5, SB over Bolter so you can shoot then charge, etc) to be a steal?

 

When it would cost around 14 points to get the SB and PW, if they could buy them for every marine.

 

My comparison was to state that in a general way, most Marine armies are going to be fielding more bodies than us. And that means greater resiliency on the tabletop.

 

And I wager that's a non issue as we kill things quicker, meaning less incoming damage to soak. :D

[worloch]

Don't want to derail the topic here too much but I think we see things differently.

 

For instance, Fortitude is definitely nice to have, and *can* be better than extra armor. It can also cause a glancing hit on a 2 or 12, and fails on an 11 or 12. Extra Armor works every time, and it won't possibly hurt you to use. Shifting probabilities up or down, especially in to the 100% range where it becomes a certainty, is worth points. Introducing or removing risk is worth points.

 

And where I think we see things most differently is in choice. *Not* having a choice is worth a points reduction in cost. I *choose* to take extra armor on the vehicles I want it on. I *must* take Psychic Pilot on all my GK vehicles, whether I want it or not.

 

 

Would I choose to to take it if it was a choice instead of required? Probably in most cases, but not all. Same thing with Force Weapons and Storm Bolters on my Tac Marines. On some? Sure, that's cool. Required on all? Why pay to put FW's on unit's I'm planning on keeping out of CC? What if I want my squads primary role to be to hunker down in cover and claim an objective? I'm not looking for them to kill things specifically, so I'd rather have wounds over Storm Bolters.

 

Wounds are a given, you buy them you have them. Buying Storm Bolters simply shifts your probability of killing the enemy up - it is not a certainty. You could miss with all of them. Not likely, but possible.

 

 

So, again I stand by my position and state I think the relative points costs are about right, and that having the certainty of more wounds will still lead to greater resiliency on the tabletop than the chance of killing more quickly.

[Gentlemanloser]

Why pay to put FW's on unit's I'm planning on keeping out of CC?

 

So you don't roll over when you get CCed.

 

Plus the deterrent is *immense*.

 

My opponents now think twice before assaulting with (actually fielding, but I digress) multi wound characters / MCs. Sure, a Talos (example only) can nearly wipe a Strike Squad. But my Deldar opponent now knows if he doesn't wipe the entire unit (not very likely), odds are the Talos is going to take a Nemesis Force Weapon to the face from one of the remaining guys.

 

And bam.

 

Force Weapon deaded.

 

I have a Justicar with a MCed NDH and my opponents know more than likely they won't be able to stop that guy swinging, and they will (usually) lose out to it. It makes them hesitant and unsure to CC even my least able CC units.

 

The tactical advantage is immense.

 

Now a Talos versus a Tac Squad, even with a Power Fist Sarge. The Talos is eating that unit and laughing. Even if it takes a wound or two in the process.

[worloch]

You're missing the forest of my position for the trees of the examples. Nothing is going to be completely black and white. Sometimes it will be good to have FW's on you SS, sometimes you won't swing them once in a game but you paid for them all the same.

 

I don't want to derail the thread any further, so if you would like we could continue to discuss in a different thread or in PM's if you want.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

In some respects the numbers weakness of Grey Knights doesn't really fly. With the addition of a very cheap HQ (Coteaz) you have access to the cheapest troops in the game. If you want a unit that can hunker down in cover, 7 points gets you a guardsman with a storm bolter. 12 points of models allows you to take a Razorback for a scoring mobile heavy weapon. You can fill your troop slots with these and then have tons of points left over to buy heavy hitting units like Purifiers or Paladin.

 

I can appreciate why some people do have a bad taste in their mouth over Grey Knights. I certainly wasn't too thrilled when a scouting Dreadknight basically ate my entire bike army single-handedly. Sure I've learned to just turbo-boost my army away if that happens again, but that's still a very tough model that will, if the Grey Knight player goes first, destroy at least one unit with relative impunity.

[andrew55]

Just stuff like a powerfist for space marines is 25 points, a demon hammer (which is better than a powerfist) is 10 points.

a 10 man squad of grey knights (w/jump packs) with str 5 storm bolters and everybody has a nemesis force power weapon and a demonhammer is approx 230 points

a 10 man assault squad with no upgrades at all is 235 points

 

a whole load of tweaking needs to be done because GKs are getting powerful powerful units for the price of ork boyz (slight exaggeration lol)

then people claim it is balanced because a land raider costs 10 points more!

[Darkmagi]

Actually andrew55 your math is off on the interceptors, a unit like you stated actually costs 290 points plus you wouldn't be caught without 2 psycannons bumping your costs to 310... which is a great deal more then a 10 man vanilla assault squad heck even with 3 plasma pistols and a powerfist they still come in at 260.

[andrew55]

Actually andrew55 your math is off on the interceptors, a unit like you stated actually costs 290 points plus you wouldn't be caught without 2 psycannons bumping your costs to 310... which is a great deal more then a 10 man vanilla assault squad heck even with 3 plasma pistols and a powerfist they still come in at 260.

 

 

sorry dont have the GK codex i had a browse at it like 2 weeks ago.

But if 30 points more would get me 9 nemesis force power weapons, 10 STR5 storm bolters, 1 nemesis demonhammer and a bunch of phsycic powers, 30 points is not alot to pay, thats the additional cost of a powerfist and a flamer! and then to pay 20 points to get 2 sort of better assault cannons, wouldn't grumble!

 

like psycannons is moving are STR7 assault 2 rending if stationary they are assault cannosn with better STR which for 20 points less than an assault cannon that isnt something to grumble about!

 

The codex definately needs a massive points tweak on almost everything. Having a super elite army is one thing, making them incredibly cheap is just stupid!