Are the Wolves still the Executioners?

[Valerian]

@Iron Lord,

 

I can provide quotes, too, but it'll have to wait until some time when I'm not on my phone.

 

V

And Im willing to bet alot of them are- for good or ill- from the new codex and the last codex.

 

And, don't forget all of my Rogue Trader stuff, like Slaves to Darkness (first Grey Knights background material in the game), and White Dwarf 114 (introduction of Grey Knights Terminator Squads).

 

But, you know me GM, I've got the quotes.

 

V

[Master Of Malfeasance X]

Actually, the Space Wolves aren't the Emperor's Executioners, there is an entire chapter called The Executioners who do exactly that.

[Iron Lord]

I don't think they specialize in executing chapters or regiments that have gone renegade though. They may be closer to the mainstream Space Marine role.

[Custodian Athiair]

i knew the Executioners existed. but i was unaware of the fact that they were the new chapter killers.

i just thought it was their name. like sable swords or what ever.

 

that interesting!

 

i'm liking this heated debate between the Grey Knight players and the Space Wolf players. it's exicting and bringing a lot of information to the fore.

 

something i've thought off is that having the Space Wolves as the chapter killers doesn't work much anymore. much in the same way the legions wouldn't work any more. because they wouldn't be able to react quick enough and in large enough numbers to assault a fortress monastery. (if you care for my explanation about the uselessness of the legions now please ask)

 

Athiair

[TheDVoid]

Unfortunatly that honour has gone to

chapter 666 and to a lesser extent

It would appeare to the Minatores.

[Iron Lord]

They are in a sense executioners of Mankind's foes in general, more than of renegade chapters the way the Minotaurs are:

 

IA10: The Babab War Part 2: p84

 

Founded under the command of Fafnir Rann, reputedly the most vicious of Rogal Dorn's later captains, they were created, according to their chronicles, for the sole task of seeking out and slaughtering Mankind's foes rather than undertaking any more defensive or strategic purpose. The Executioners are a bellicose, almost barbarous Chapter that disdains the martial trappings and ordered obedience of such stalwart and unimpeachable members of the Astartes such as the Ultramarines and their own forebears the Imperial Fists, but they have gained a fearsome reputation for sheer undaunted endurance and destructive wrath. As a Chapter they see their goal and purpose as a simple one; to extinguish the lives of those that would contest the Imperium's rule or threaten humanity, and to do so without remorse. In literal terms they see themselves as the Emperor's chosen headsmen, and his judgement theirs to enact.

[Grey Mage]

@Iron Lord,

 

I can provide quotes, too, but it'll have to wait until some time when I'm not on my phone.

 

V

And Im willing to bet alot of them are- for good or ill- from the new codex and the last codex.

 

And, don't forget all of my Rogue Trader stuff, like Slaves to Darkness (first Grey Knights background material in the game), and White Dwarf 114 (introduction of Grey Knights Terminator Squads).

 

But, you know me GM, I've got the quotes.

 

V

Indeed, it was more a comment that I generally prefer the quotes in a codex to the ones in the core book for any system- let alone GWs systems.

[hendrik]

As a Chapter they see their goal and purpose as a simple one; to extinguish the lives of those that would contest the Imperium's rule or threaten humanity, and to do so without remorse. In literal terms they see themselves as the Emperor's chosen headsmen, and his judgement theirs to enact.[/i]

while sounding really dramatical etc this actually described about every chapter out their besides some of then first founding ones

[Decoy]

I don't know, guys. While yes, the Grey Knights are badasses, they're not trained to be Chapter-killers. They fight the Daemon threat more than anything else. That's what they're born and bred for; while they may be capable of being executioners, that doesn't mean that they'd do so any better than any other given Chapter. Nine Hells, if we take their current Codex as a for-example, the average vanilla Marine Chapter would wipe the floor with them.

 

I'm still not convinced that the Wolves are no longer the executioners, to be honest. No longer are we the Emperor's executioners (obviously, as the Big E is a bit... sedentary), but given our ability (and apparent willingness) to engage fellow Loyalist Marines in combat (see; Flesh Tearers during Honour's Fall incident, or whatever it's named), I only have mild doubt that the Wolves wouldn't be up for laying low another Chapter. Granted, our reasons would be our own, probably humanitarian, but I see no reason why the Wolves wouldn't carry that particular saga and ability from their earlier years. After all, living so close to the Eye of Terror, I'd wager the vast majority of our enemies are Chaos Marines. The only real difference between Chaos and Space Marines is the influence of the Daemonic Powers which make Chaos stronger. If such is the case, then Space Marine chapters would prove an easier enemy than our routine fare of Chaos.

 

 

QUICK EDIT: And after a brief reading of the quoted passage above, seems like the Executioners are more than a bit of Chaos. Wouldn't surprise me in the least if they were Renegades acting like Loyalists. No doubt due to their weak gene-seed.

[clanfield]

i think over the last 10k years the high lords basicly are very reluctant to use the wolves (read call on in our case)this has lead the wolves to increaseingly follow there own ideas as time progressed ,whilst the high lords have used alternative forces remember whilst the grey knights would help were they can there primary goal is defence against chaos,as to ther forces i agree the minators are a bit fishy in there mentors but also chapters such as the crimson fist have partaken in purges of other chapters as did the fire hawks before there demise.badab shows that the imperium will use what ever forces it can and as the end of days draws in this will increase across the imperium

[Freman Bloodglaive]

No, now we're the Emperor's mead soaked barbarians.

 

And we've taken up book-larnin' just like them fancy-pants Ultramarines.

[Chris Wraight]

For what it's worth, my 2p:

 

- The idea of the 'Emperor's Executioners' is a rich one, and has lots of interpretations. One thing it *doesn't* mean is that the SWs are the 'best' Chapter (the hardest, the most skillful, etc.). I prefer to think of it in terms of single-mindedness, or thoroughness. One way of putting it is that once the SWs are given an order, they follow it though with striking commitment, discarding other considerations until the job's done. The analogy used in Fang is that of hunters tracking prey, never satisfied until they've brought it to a kill. This can make them look utterly brutal to outsiders, or even reckless, since (unlike, say, the Imperial Fists, or the Salamanders) they won't naturally think about aftermath of the hunt, such as how to put the planet back together.

 

- As others have pointed out, though, whatever the ultimate idea of 'executioners' is, it falls apart once the Emperor leaves the scene. The SWs don't take orders from anyone else. They certainly don't act at the behest of High Lords or the Inquisition. What you end up with in M41 is a Chapter with all the capabilities of Chapter-killing but without the over-arching structure to make sense of that. In the 40K 'present', the Wolves are viewed with suspicion by a large chunk of the Imperium, partly because of that. The attack dogs are off the leash, and that's going to make people jumpy.

 

- The practical upshot of this is that the Wolves will largely set their own priorities. They're capable of going after renegade Chapters, but they're far from the only Imperial faction that does so. They're also able to work alongside, and even under the authority of, other bits of the Imperial war machine (think of Armageddon, or the 13th Black Crusade). Like all Space Marine Chapters, though, *they'll* make the ultimate call over where and how to deploy their resources. They're more independent-minded than most, sure, and certainly have a uniquely rich warrior culture, but they don't occupy some totally isolated, privileged spot in the Imperial hierarchy.

 

That's how I see it, anyway. Disagreement welcome. :P

[MaveriK]

For what it's worth, my 2p:

 

- The idea of the 'Emperor's Executioners' is a rich one, and has lots of interpretations. One thing it *doesn't* mean is that the SWs are the 'best' Chapter (the hardest, the most skillful, etc.). I prefer to think of it in terms of single-mindedness, or thoroughness. One way of putting it is that once the SWs are given an order, they follow it though with striking commitment, discarding other considerations until the job's done. The analogy used in Fang is that of hunters tracking prey, never satisfied until they've brought it to a kill. This can make them look utterly brutal to outsiders, or even reckless, since (unlike, say, the Imperial Fists, or the Salamanders) they won't naturally think about aftermath of the hunt, such as how to put the planet back together.

 

- As others have pointed out, though, whatever the ultimate idea of 'executioners' is, it falls apart once the Emperor leaves the scene. The SWs don't take orders from anyone else. They certainly don't act at the behest of High Lords or the Inquisition. What you end up with in M41 is a Chapter with all the capabilities of Chapter-killing but without the over-arching structure to make sense of that. In the 40K 'present', the Wolves are viewed with suspicion by a large chunk of the Imperium, partly because of that. The attack dogs are off the leash, and that's going to make people jumpy.

 

- The practical upshot of this is that the Wolves will largely set their own priorities. They're capable of going after renegade Chapters, but they're far from the only Imperial faction that does so. They're also able to work alongside, and even under the authority of, other bits of the Imperial war machine (think of Armageddon, or the 13th Black Crusade). Like all Space Marine Chapters, though, *they'll* make the ultimate call over where and how to deploy their resources. They're more independent-minded than most, sure, and certainly have a uniquely rich warrior culture, but they don't occupy some totally isolated, privileged spot in the Imperial hierarchy.

 

That's how I see it, anyway. Disagreement welcome. :)

and such is the tragedy of the Wolves, with the unfinished task that is the Thousand Sons. Like failed samurai of the old, who wander the lands seeking the unattainable, an almost "fools errand" that eludes them, but at the same time doing great deeds of valor and heroism, yet in the eyes of said samurai, it is not enough. I look at Wolves as the anti-heroes of the Imperium. Good guys viewed by many as reckless and anti authoritarian, bordering on the edge. Seen as they have always been since they were once a legion.... misunderstood. But are more humanitarian *Armageddon incident* compared to other astartes. When a Wolf makes a decision, he is unmoving, relentless and efficient at whatever the cost, to get the job done.

[Wispy]

If you read Battle of the Fang, a lot of it is about the transition from the Legion they were to the Chapter they are today.

 

That's the theme, anyways - The succesful defense of Fenris marked a turning point in the Space Wolves nature and purpose.

[Custodian Athiair]

i am currently reading Battle of the Fang so that is something to look forward to for me :)

 

and you lot have raised a lot of points about this. and i like the analogy of anti-heroes. it is the thing that continually brings me back to the wolves the fact that they are a combination of cunning and ferocity (which is rarely seen at all) and also the fact that they are so determined in anything and everything they do. and they will almost never give up on anything until it is completed. something that i always imagined in a space marine army. and one i hope to get when i don't have to save up almost £2000 for something else ^_^

 

untill that time i will build the fluff :rolleyes:

 

Athiair :P

[Wispy]

Oh, lol, Chris wraight is here and here i am talking about what i think the theme of the book is.

[Spear of Achilles]

Well, there are a lot of chapters that would stand 50/50 vs the wolves. I don't see them easily beating the space vampires, who fight just as savage as the wolves, the Smurfs or the Pre-Heresy Emperor's Children before their fall (the latter two being hyper-effeciant in tactics & strategy...maybe a little TOO reliant on things going exactly as planned in the Children's case). Really, the Tousand Sons put the wolves on the ropes in short order after most of the 1K Sons were not even involved in offensive action, then their primarch decided to no longer be idle. Were it not for a lot of Sisters of Silence...there might not even BE a wolf chapter left.

[eyeslikethunder]

We would have a significant size Advantage over most chapters being over twice the size. Which would allow us defeat most chapters like the Blood angels. Of course the how well you are supported with allies(you don't always get a chance to call them as the DA attack on the BT proves) and who is at home has a significant effect. But Grimnar is the most loved commander in the Galaxy so we could probably call lots of allies in times of trouble.

We managed to do away with the 2 "missing" legions and would have finished the 1k sons if they had not thrown in their lot with Chaos to escape.

 

As Magnus said "the wolves were always the emperors most potent weapon"

[hendrik]

We would have a significate size Advantage over most chapters. Which would allow us defeat most chapters like the Blood angels.

We managed to do away with the 2 "missing" legions and would have finished the 1k sons if they had not thrown in their lot with Chaos to escape.

but you forget the bloodangels would have blood ties they would call upon. especially the more immediate succesor chapters would defenetly rise to their hand in my opinion. and i'm not sure if either of the 2 chapters would come out victorious. knowing the bloodangels and our wolves rage i'd say there is a good chance we exterminate eachother to the point where both chapters can be considered broken. i look at it in this way

first foundin VS later founding : first wins

first founding VS multiple foundings: first founding calls upon help and thriumps

first founding VS first founding : a second heresy that will ruin the imperium

[Iron Lord]

QUICK EDIT: And after a brief reading of the quoted passage above, seems like the Executioners are more than a bit of Chaos. Wouldn't surprise me in the least if they were Renegades acting like Loyalists. No doubt due to their weak gene-seed.

 

Not really- they're still pretty loyal- they're not consumed by rage- etc. They fight for Huron out of an honor debt- and turn on him when they discover he's been harvesting the geneseed of their fallen.

 

They're spared at the end of the war- sent on a penitent crusade instead.

 

The Carcharodons "feel" rather more chaosy- preying on worlds to bump up their numbers, engaging in brutality shocking to the rest of the Loyalists- but they're not tainted either.

[Spear of Achilles]

We would have a significant size Advantage over most chapters being over twice the size.

 

There a source for that quote? I know post-heresy they are unusual in size (just as the Black Templars are), but it's my understanding ALL the legions were quite large (before they were made into chapters).

[HvitrValdyr]

Legion wise the wolves were not one of the more numerous. But post heresy they were only divided once and since they do not adhere to the Codex Astartes they are significantly larger than a codex chapter.