GK vehicule summoning

[number6]

The BRB may say that only Fast vehicles can move Flat Out, but as we all know, Codex rules >> BRB rules. If a Codex rule says that a vehicle counts as having moved Flat Out, there's no logical or rules-based reason to insist that a precondition of that status is that the vehicle must match some qualification in the main rules. The Codex says the vehicle counts as having moved Flat Out, case closed. Occam's Razor. There isn't even an argument to make! Though a very convoluted one must be made to support Brother Tual's position.

 

Why do people insist that GW employ incredibly picayune rules interpretations in order for the game to be played? :lol:

[Gentlemanloser]

In additon to Number6's post, there's already precedent for vehicles moving at faster speeds than they're allowed.

 

Dreads move at cruising speed when they deploy by Drop Pod (due to deepstriking), and they otherwise could only move at combat speed.

[Decoy]

Codex rules >> BRB rules.

 

Erm... That's not quite correct. The real way it applies is Specific Rules >> General Rules

 

It just so happens that -normally-, the Codex is more specific than the BRB and other general rules. However, there are instances where the Codex general rules are overridden by more specific BRB rules. Codex>>BRB is easier to remember, but there will be instances where that is wrong.

 

Otherwise, spot on analysis regarding the topic at hand.

[Valerian]

In additon to Number6's post, there's already precedent for vehicles moving at faster speeds than they're allowed.

 

Dreads move at cruising speed when they deploy by Drop Pod (due to deepstriking), and they otherwise could only move at combat speed.

 

G,

 

Actually, I believe Walkers move as Infantry, so they don't even move at "combat speed", although the 6" distance is the same in either case. Because they move as Infantry, Dreadnoughts can still shoot upon landing via Drop Pod, whereas they would otherwise not be able to if they were simply a Vehicle now moving at "cruising speed" and arriving by Deep Strike.

 

I do, however, agree with N6; it would be inane to allow regular vehicles to avoid the penalties of Summoning, while applying full restrictions only to Fast vehicles.

 

V

[Something Wycked]

Codex rules >> BRB rules.

 

Erm... That's not quite correct. The real way it applies is Specific Rules >> General Rules

 

It just so happens that -normally-, the Codex is more specific than the BRB and other general rules. However, there are instances where the Codex general rules are overridden by more specific BRB rules. Codex>>BRB is easier to remember, but there will be instances where that is wrong.

Sorry Decoy, but you're mixing games. D&D rules are Specific >> General. GW rules are Codex >> BRB.

 

number6 is spot on as always.

[jeffersonian000]

Too bad The Summoning don't override scatter or our Teleport Homer wasn't so limited, as this would not be an issue. As it stands, we just can't reliably use the two together as a strategy despite what seems to be the intent.

 

SJ

[Something Wycked]

Too bad The Summoning don't override scatter or our Teleport Homer wasn't so limited, as this would not be an issue. As it stands, we just can't reliably use the two together as a strategy despite what seems to be the intent.

 

SJ

Too true. The only way I've seen to make The Summoning foolproof is with an Inquisitor + Mystics. And that's a whole other point cost involved.

[Valerian]

Too bad The Summoning don't override scatter or our Teleport Homer wasn't so limited, as this would not be an issue. As it stands, we just can't reliably use the two together as a strategy despite what seems to be the intent.

 

SJ

 

Well, you can always try to work it out with your opponent ahead of time. Since it does seem to be the obvious intent, it shouldn't be a stretch for any decent bloke to allow it.

 

V

[Gentlemanloser]

G,

 

Actually, I believe Walkers move as Infantry, so they don't even move at "combat speed", although the 6" distance is the same in either case. Because they move as Infantry, Dreadnoughts can still shoot upon landing via Drop Pod, whereas they would otherwise not be able to if they were simply a Vehicle now moving at "cruising speed" and arriving by Deep Strike.

 

Nice!

 

What I was remembering was the Dreadnought specific rule that they can fire both weapons regardless of how far/fast they've moved.

 

:)

 

If they move as infantry, and WSF (which they can take to make use of Summoning) tells us they move 'Flat Out', does that mean they Dreads *can't* fire after being summoned? :P

[Brother Tual]

If they move as infantry, and WSF (which they can take to make use of Summoning) tells us they move 'Flat Out', does that mean they Dreads *can't* fire after being summoned?

 

I would say they can because moving a dread at a speed 'flat out' has no adverse conditions according to how the rules are written (over as intended).

 

I think it is weak how GW author the rule book then over-ride them through codex versions. It ends up (and always will) with issues and gaps in the rules. They dont need to author picayune rules, they just need to author one, common rule set that CANNOT be changed by codex. (which is how it should be to keep the game level anyway)

 

I agree it is silly that a transport is not restricted as a fast vehicle give the same movement conditions but this is how it is ACTUALLY written. In neither the codex or the rule book does it suggest that moving a transport 'at flat out' (other than a fast vehicle) imposses adverse conditions on disembarking.

 

I am not sure N6 provided a direct argument against troops disembarking from a 'flat out' out vehicle. He stated, "If a Codex rule says that a vehicle counts as having moved Flat Out, there's no logical or rules-based reason to insist that a precondition of that status is that the vehicle must match some qualification in the main rules. The Codex says the vehicle counts as having moved Flat Out, case closed." Having this condition applied to a transport not otherwise capable of moving at such a speed has no adverse conditions (or positive - so who cares? effectively the vehicle operates as moving at its NORMAL top speed). Whilst N6 says a vehicle is moving flat out is because the codex says so (and I agree), I would like to see the condition that prevents a unit disembarking. I would be implying that N6 said that it prevents disembarking and if he intended this in his post (which others have assumed) I would say he is wrong (and the others who have assumed he said this are also wrong).

[number6]

@BT: A vehicle that has moved Flat Out does not allow passengers to disembark. That's right there in the BRB. If we agree that a vehicle counts as having moved Flat Out after being Summoned...

 

a vehicle is moving flat out is because the codex says so (and I agree)

... then that's all there is to it. For all intents and purposes, the vehicle moved Flat Out, no disembarking. No doing anything which is barred because of moving Flat Out.

 

The only way you can say that this is "wrong" is by once again arguing that the Flat Out condition is invalidated somehow, which requires you to expand upon your picayune argument, which you also stated shouldn't be necessary! :)

[Gentlemanloser]

A vehicle that has moved Flat Out does not allow passengers to disembark. That's right there in the BRB.

 

I tihnk the arguement is that the RAW in the BRB here is for Fast Transports.

 

This restriction doesn't apply to all Flat Out moving vehicles, but only specifically to Fast Transports tht move Flat Out.

 

There's nothing in the BRB about other types of Transports moving Flat Out, becuase, well, they can't. :(

[number6]

There's nothing in the BRB about other types of Transports moving Flat Out, becuase, well, they can't. <_<

The only place the BRB talks about Flat Out is in reference to Fast Vehicles. Does this mean that all of the rules associated with Flat Out fail to apply just because the Summoned vehicle doesn't happen to be Fast?

 

I find this line of thinking untenable.

[Gentlemanloser]

Sure.

 

It's RAW though. :down:

 

Edit: I agree with other Vehicles moving Flat Out holding to the Flat Out restrictions, by the way! <_<

 

Edit 2: If my opponent wanted to get all RAW about it, and disembark from Rhino's they've summoned, I'd deny them being able to use the summoning on non Fast Vehicles, as it would only be Fast Vehicles (the Storm Raven) that could move the required Flat Out The Summoning requires.

[Brother Tual]

A vehicle that has moved Flat Out does not allow passengers to disembark. That's right there in the BRB.

Thats the problem my friend, it doesnt actually say that. I wish it did. You missed out a word to better support your version of how the rule should be written (and it IS how the rule should be written but it is not).

 

Normally I dont care for this kinda of RAW v RAI stuff but the OP asked the question and given if this were to appear in a tournament you would have to go with RAW UNLESS something supports a counter argument. Then the TO would have to deliberate. In this case the only counter argument is opinion - the same conditions that apply to a fast vehicle SHOULD apply to any other vehicle deemed to be travelling 'flat out' but nothing, be it codex or rule book supports this claim.

[number6]

Why must a vehicle be Fast in order for it to be subject to the rules laid out for vehicles that have moved Flat Out?

 

Riddle me this: why specify the "counts as" Flat Out if it has zero game effect at all?

 

Your RAW stance is completely untenable, BT. It is based on an interpretation of strict dependence, which is not actually specified anywhere, though you seem to think it is. At best, the dependence is implied.

 

If you want to follow strict RAW, then I insist you follow it strictly. Show me where it says that only Fast vehicles are subject to the rules for Flat Out. Shy of such a specification, the rules for the effects of Flat Out may be utilized independently of the type of vehicle. The Flat Out rules just happen to be filed under Fast vehicles because they are the ones usually subject to it. As in, GW is simply following the rules organizational principles they outlined right near the beginning of the BRB, where all the rules will be laid out with a specific orientation (i.e., toward Infantry), and modifications/expansions/exceptions will be explained in later sections.

 

Until the Summoning, there has been no other way for a vehicle to move Flat Out without also being Fast. This is the very first instance where it is the case. That is, it is a brand new expansion and exception the base rules. Codex >> BRB again! GW expects us to be smart enough to understand their intention here. They aren't going to release a BRB FAQ update just because you can now summon a Rhino and therefore temporarily have it count as having moved Flat Out. Be serious for a minute and live in the real world. RAW is not some ironclad prison. Just like laws that govern societies, RAW is something that is interpreted over time and adjusts with new revelations to the game.

 

Otherwise, you must acknowledge that what you are saying is that the Summoning is actively designed to work on no vehicles at all other than Stormravens. The language of the codex rules themselves don't support this.

[stephane4985]

Show me where it says that only Fast vehicles are subject to the rules for Flat Out. Shy of such a specification, the rules for the effects of Flat Out may be utilized independently of the type of vehicle.

 

 

BRB page 302, vehicle moving & shhoting chart, see that little N/A in the All row, flat-out column, guess what that means. Not available, not applicable. If it would be applicable, it would say No Weapon...

[Something Wycked]

Unfortunately stephane, what you've quoted only applies to vehicles moving under their own power, not via a psychic power.

 

The vehicle moving & shooting chart also only specifies what vehicles can shoot when moving at a given speed; the chart itself does not allow or deny movement speeds.

[stephane4985]

Unfortunately stephane, what you've quoted only applies to vehicles moving under their own power, not via a psychic power.

 

The vehicle moving & shooting chart also only specifies what vehicles can shoot when moving at a given speed; the chart itself does not allow or deny movement speeds.

 

Show me where there is a difference between moving on their own and being moved? Strickly raw.

 

The chart's name is vehicle moving and shooting summary chart, not "what weapon can be shoot when moving at a given speed". It contains that info, but it is not a chart only for that. It actually tells you what are the move possible by each vehicle too.

 

And like I said, it would be written No Weapon if that speed was possible.

 

So I ask, If my tank is being moved flat out, what weapon can I shoot. By the table, it is not taken into account. So what? I can choose, then I guess I'll say I can shoot all my weapon then. It says in the vehicle section that a vehicle moving more than 6 and up to 12 (cruising speed) cannot fire. It doesn't say it cannot shoot weapon when moving more that that.

 

I don't know the answer, and until a faq we won't but my point is to stop giving crap about strickly RAW (not directed at you Something Wycked) , because if we go strickly RAW, that speed is impossible. Because if it was really possible, then the number of weapons we can fire is unknowned. SO I could choose to fire all my weapon and still not break any rules.

[stephane4985]

Oh and another think. In the transport vehicle, they never specify a condition when you could not disembark. And in the fast transport section, it says "passenger may never disembark from a fast vehicle if it has moved flat out". Never does it says that passenger in a normal vehicle, moving flat out, cannot disembark.

 

So strickly raw, there is nothing to prevent you from disembarking from a normal vehicle having move flat out. Only if it is fast.

[Something Wycked]

Moving on their own happens in the movement phase and the distance possible is listed under the rules for their vehicle type:

 

Vehicles that are not Walkers and are not Fast may move up to 12" under their own power.

Walkers move as Infantry.

Fast vehicles may move up to 18" under their own power.

Fast vehicles that are also a Skimmer may move up to 24" under their own power.

 

Being moved through some other means is described in the rules for that other means. Blood Angels' Magna Grapple is one example. The Summoning is another. All movement not accomplished under the vehicle's own power is resolved through the rules of the rule that allows the movement. In this case, The Summoning + Warp Stabilisation Field cause the vehicle to move Flat Out at an allowed speed determined by the distance between the vehicle and the Librarian at the time of using the power.

 

As to the rest of your reasoning, you have the 40k system backwards; it is a permissive system, meaning the system must give you permission in order to perform an action. If the system does not give you permission, then you may not perform that action. You may not, therefore, give yourself permission to fire your vehicle's weapons after it has moved Flat Out via The Summoning.

 

...if we go strickly RAW, that speed is impossible.

This is true only if you go by the BRB as the only RAW present. The GK codex is also RAW, and in the codex it provides a means for vehicles to move Flat Out that the BRB does not provide. Codex supercedes BRB, so vehicles may move Flat Out as if they were Fast vehicles when they are affected by The Summoning, and all benefits (and drawbacks) apply.

[stephane4985]

The GK codex doesn't say the vehicle move flat out as if it were a fast vehicle, it only says it move flat out. And in the BRB, it says you cannot disembark from a fast vehicle if it move flat out. There is nothing in the gk codex that change the vehicle to a fast one. So yes, the vehicle move flat out. It can then disembark because it is not a fast vehicle.

 

I understand that RAI, the intention was probably to not be able to disembark, but RAW there is nothing in the gk codex, nor the brb, that says you cannot in that situation.

 

Now if they had said in the BRB that any vehicle moving flat out cannot disembark, I would agree with you, but they specified fast vehicle. They specified it because under normal rules, only a fast vehicle can move flat out. And since there is nothing in the transport vehicle that prevent to disembark in relation to speed, then only say you can disembark before or after having move, why shouldn't I be able to disembark? So yes, a normal vehicle made to move at flat out speed is a situation in the brb that is missing. But who knows if when they wrote the GK codex they were aware of that and intend that you could disembark if it is not a fast vehicle. Nobody knows until a faq comes up.

 

And to makes thing clear, I too believe that you should not be able to do it, but sadly you have to admit that by RAW, this is a hole in the rules that allow you to do it and it need to be faq.

[Something Wycked]

The GK codex says it "counts as having moved flat out" whether the vehicle is Fast or not. This next bit is where you have it backwards: the BRB disallows disembarking from a Fast vehicle if it moved Flat Out. It does not say you can disembark from a non-Fast vehicle if it moves Flat Out. The onus of proof is on you; if you want to perform an action in the game, you must find where the rules say you can. Until you find somewhere in the BRB or GK codex that says specifically this:

 

"Models may disembark from any/a non-Fast vehicle after it moved Flat Out in that movement phase."

 

Then you may not disembark models from any vehicle after it moves Flat Out unless it has special rules that allow it, such as the rules for Stormravens. No FAQ or Errata is needed in this case.

[Crynn]

Oh and another think. In the transport vehicle, they never specify a condition when you could not disembark. And in the fast transport section, it says "passenger may never disembark from a fast vehicle if it has moved flat out". Never does it says that passenger in a normal vehicle, moving flat out, cannot disembark.

 

So strickly raw, there is nothing to prevent you from disembarking from a normal vehicle having move flat out. Only if it is fast.

 

I disagree with almost everything you say in terms of shooting weapons after moving and such. A '-' means you will not be shooting anything via RAW not whatever you choose. Permisive rule set.

 

However I hate to admit it but he is correct that you can disembark from a non fast vehicle via summoning by RAW. If it says you move flat out, doesn't matter if you couldn't before, you now can. However if it only says you may not disembark from a fast vehicle moving flat out then for disembarking on any normal transport you just revert to the normal rules which would allow it.

 

Number9 you are always spot on and I agree with you in terms of what you are saying however strictly RAW and if it was pulled on me in a tournament I would let my opponent disembark as it is legal and me trying to stop him would put me in the wrong, although I am a strictly RAW player even when I don't like the outcome (like this) just because it is clearer and saves arguing. Just my opinion.

 

Regards,

 

Crynn

[Crynn]

The GK codex says it "counts as having moved flat out" whether the vehicle is Fast or not. This next bit is where you have it backwards: the BRB disallows disembarking from a Fast vehicle if it moved Flat Out. It does not say you can disembark from a non-Fast vehicle if it moves Flat Out. The onus of proof is on you; if you want to perform an action in the game, you must find where the rules say you can. Until you find somewhere in the BRB or GK codex that says specifically this:

 

"Models may disembark from any/a non-Fast vehicle after it moved Flat Out in that movement phase."

 

Then you may not disembark models from any vehicle after it moves Flat Out unless it has special rules that allow it, such as the rules for Stormravens. No FAQ or Errata is needed in this case.

 

What does the rulebook say for units disembarking as the restriction? units can disembark a vehicle if....? I don't have it on me but if you could fill this in it would help the debate of if infantry can disembark a vehicle that has moved flat out. Does it specifically say a vehicle that has not moved or moved up to cruising spped can disembark or does it say models may just disembark?

 

Regards,

 

Crynn