GK vehicule summoning

[stephane4985]

The GK codex says it "counts as having moved flat out" whether the vehicle is Fast or not. This next bit is where you have it backwards: the BRB disallows disembarking from a Fast vehicle if it moved Flat Out. It does not say you can disembark from a non-Fast vehicle if it moves Flat Out. The onus of proof is on you; if you want to perform an action in the game, you must find where the rules say you can. Until you find somewhere in the BRB or GK codex that says specifically this:

 

"Models may disembark from any/a non-Fast vehicle after it moved Flat Out in that movement phase."

 

Then you may not disembark models from any vehicle after it moves Flat Out unless it has special rules that allow it, such as the rules for Stormravens. No FAQ or Errata is needed in this case.

 

 

That doesn't make any sense. By your logic, you cannot disembark from a vehicle that has move at cruising speed because it doesn't say you can.

 

The transport section specify you can disembark after or before moving. There is nothing about speed in the entire section, hence you can disembark whatever the speed.

[stephane4985]

I disagree with almost everything you say in terms of shooting weapons after moving and such. A '-' means you will not be shooting anything via RAW not whatever you choose. Permisive rule set.

 

And I agree with you on that part. I was wrong about the shooting.

[Something Wycked]

By your logic, you cannot disembark from a vehicle that has move at cruising speed because it doesn't say you can.

Yes, actually, it does: the BRB states that if a squad disembarks from a vehicle before the vehicle moves, then the squad may move after disembarking and so may the vehicle. If the squad disembarks after the vehicle moves at up to cruising speed, the squad may not move further.

 

There are only two places where disembarking and Flat Out are referenced together; one is in the Fast Vehicles section and one is in the Stormraven rules in the Blood Angels and Grey Knights codices. In the Fast Vehicles section it states that models may not disembark from a Fast vehicle after it moves Flat Out. In both versions of the Stormraven rule, it specifies exactly how to handle disembarking from the Stormraven after it has moved Flat Out.

 

@ Crynn: I'd quote you rules and page numbers, but I'm at work right now. :)

[stephane4985]

By your logic, you cannot disembark from a vehicle that has move at cruising speed because it doesn't say you can.

Yes, actually, it does: the BRB states that if a squad disembarks from a vehicle before the vehicle moves, then the squad may move after disembarking and so may the vehicle. If the squad disembarks after the vehicle moves at up to cruising speed, the squad may not move further.

 

There are only two places where disembarking and Flat Out are referenced together; one is in the Fast Vehicles section and one is in the Stormraven rules in the Blood Angels and Grey Knights codices. In the Fast Vehicles section it states that models may not disembark from a Fast vehicle after it moves Flat Out. In both versions of the Stormraven rule, it specifies exactly how to handle disembarking from the Stormraven after it has moved Flat Out.

 

@ Crynn: I'd quote you rules and page numbers, but I'm at work right now. :)

 

 

First of all, re-read the brb again, there is nothing about cruising speed in the disembark section.

 

Second of all, the stormraven is a fast vehicle, that's why it needs a special rule to be able to disembark and it has nothing to do with the discussion about non-fast vehicle moving flat out.

[Crynn]

By your logic, you cannot disembark from a vehicle that has move at cruising speed because it doesn't say you can.

@ Crynn: I'd quote you rules and page numbers, but I'm at work right now. :)

 

Haha, we are both at work, pretending to work.

[Something Wycked]

First of all, re-read the BRB again; it does address cruising speed and disembarking, even if indirectly by simply saying models may disembark after the vehicle moves. This works perfectly fine, since the only exception to this is Fast vehicles and Flat Out speed.

 

Second of all, Fast vehicles use the same disembarking rules as all other vehicles, with the addition of denying the ability to allow models to disembark after the Fast vehicle has moved Flat Out. The Stormraven has no need of a "faq to be able to disembark." It has a special rule to allow you to disembark from it when it has moved Flat Out; the special rule says absolutely nothing about regular disembarkations and you do not need the special rule for normal disembarking.

 

You're right about one thing- the Stormraven has nothing to do with non-Fast vehicles moving Flat Out. However, you made the assertion that you could disembark models from non-Fast vehicles after they have been moved Flat Out via The Summoning. That is why we're talking about it- the Stormraven rules are the only instance in which a vehicle that has moved Flat Out may disembark passengers. Once again, permissive rule set. If the BRB or Codex does not specifically say you can do something, then you may not.

[Crynn]

First of all, re-read the BRB again; it does address cruising speed and disembarking, even if indirectly by simply saying models may disembark after the vehicle moves. This works perfectly fine, since the only exception to this is Fast vehicles and Flat Out speed.

 

Second of all, Fast vehicles use the same disembarking rules as all other vehicles, with the addition of denying the ability to allow models to disembark after the Fast vehicle has moved Flat Out. The Stormraven has no need of a "faq to be able to disembark." It has a special rule to allow you to disembark from it when it has moved Flat Out; the special rule says absolutely nothing about regular disembarkations and you do not need the special rule for normal disembarking.

 

You're right about one thing- the Stormraven has nothing to do with non-Fast vehicles moving Flat Out. However, you made the assertion that you could disembark models from non-Fast vehicles after they have been moved Flat Out via The Summoning. That is why we're talking about it- the Stormraven rules are the only instance in which a vehicle that has moved Flat Out may disembark passengers. Once again, permissive rule set. If the BRB or Codex does not specifically say you can do something, then you may not.

 

 

Based on this you can disembark. If the only rule regarding disembarking is written as 'models may disembark after moving' then you can disembark after moving flat out with no fast vehicles. Yes it is permissive however this has specifically said you CAN under all types of movement by just stating movement. I want you to be correct however the information presented is not aiding this debate, someone needs to to write the disembarking rules out for us word for word so then we can see what it actually lets you do.

 

Regards,

 

Crynn

[stephane4985]

First of all, re-read the BRB again; it does address cruising speed and disembarking, even if indirectly by simply saying models may disembark after the vehicle moves. This works perfectly fine, since the only exception to this is Fast vehicles and Flat Out speed.

 

This works for you, because you interpret something by indirectly applying another rule to it, even tho it is not written. Again, nothing in the section talks about speed. So, for me, it is directly telling me I can disembark at any speed.

 

Second of all, Fast vehicles use the same disembarking rules as all other vehicles, with the addition of denying the ability to allow models to disembark after the Fast vehicle has moved Flat Out. The Stormraven has no need of a "faq to be able to disembark." It has a special rule to allow you to disembark from it when it has moved Flat Out; the special rule says absolutely nothing about regular disembarkations and you do not need the special rule for normal disembarking.

 

You're right about one thing- the Stormraven has nothing to do with non-Fast vehicles moving Flat Out. However, you made the assertion that you could disembark models from non-Fast vehicles after they have been moved Flat Out via The Summoning. That is why we're talking about it- the Stormraven rules are the only instance in which a vehicle that has moved Flat Out may disembark passengers. Once again, permissive rule set. If the BRB or Codex does not specifically say you can do something, then you may not.

Again, it is not the only instance of a vehicle moving flat out and disembarking, it is the only instance of a fast vehicle moving flat out and disembarking. Nothing to do with non-vehicle as it proves nothing except that a fast vehicle can disembark if they have a special rule that allow it. There is nothing that disallow a normal vehicle from disembarking in regard to speed. Nothing whatsoever.

[Brother Tual]

Rules as per BRB - verbatum

 

"If the vehicle has already moved (including pivoting on the spot), the passengers may disembark, but not move any further in that movement phase. Once models have disembarked%

[Something Wycked]

Ok, here we go. Quoting time. Disembarking, page 67 BRB.

 

A unit that begins its Movement phase aboard a vehicle can disembark either before or after the vehicle has moved... If the vehicle has already moved (including pivoting on the spot), the passengers may disembark, but not move any further in that Movement phase.

Next: Fast Vehicles, page 70 BRB.

 

Passengers may not embark onto or disembark from a fast vehicle if it has moved (or is going to move) flat out in that Movement phase.

Next: Warp Stabilisation Field, page 61 C:GK.

 

A vehicle that moves in this way counts as having moved flat out.

Back to Fast Vehicles.

 

Fast vehicles are capable of a third level of speed, called 'flat out'... and is treated in all respects exactly the same as moving at cruising speed for a vehicle that is not fast (except where noted otherwise).

So you can argue that there's nothing in RAW that would prevent you from disembarking models from a non-Fast vehicle that has been moved via The Summoning.

 

However.

 

This. Is. Cheese.

 

It is abundantly clear, especially when taking the Stormravens' special rules into consideration, that no model may disembark from a vehicle moving Flat Out without a special rule that specifically says otherwise. The BRB vehicle movement rules were written years before anyone at GW had ever dreamed up a psychic power that makes non-Fast vehicles move at flat out speed.

 

So sure, if you want to monkey the RAW to your advantage, you can make it happen. Just be aware that every person who you do this to will have a much lower opinion of you after the fact.

 

EDIT: Got ninja'd by Tual :D

[Crynn]

Ok, here we go. Quoting time. Disembarking, page 67 BRB.

 

A unit that begins its Movement phase aboard a vehicle can disembark either before or after the vehicle has moved... If the vehicle has already moved (including pivoting on the spot), the passengers may disembark, but not move any further in that Movement phase.

Next: Fast Vehicles, page 70 BRB.

 

Passengers may not embark onto or disembark from a fast vehicle if it has moved (or is going to move) flat out in that Movement phase.

Next: Warp Stabilisation Field, page 61 C:GK.

 

A vehicle that moves in this way counts as having moved flat out.

Back to Fast Vehicles.

 

Fast vehicles are capable of a third level of speed, called 'flat out'... and is treated in all respects exactly the same as moving at cruising speed for a vehicle that is not fast (except where noted otherwise).

So you can argue that there's nothing in RAW that would prevent you from disembarking models from a non-Fast vehicle that has been moved via The Summoning.

 

However.

 

This. Is. Cheese.

 

It is abundantly clear, especially when taking the Stormravens' special rules into consideration, that no model may disembark from a Fast vehicle without a special rule that specifically says otherwise. The BRB vehicle movement rules were written years before anyone at GW had ever dreamed up a psychic power that makes non-Fast vehicles move at flat out speed.

 

So sure, if you want to monkey the RAW to your advantage, you can make it happen. Just be aware that every person who you do this to will have a much lower opinion of you after the fact.

 

EDIT: Got ninja'd by Tual :cuss

 

Cheese, yes

 

Wrong, no

 

I dont like it but if someone decides to disembark I am the one cheating by asking him not to. Matt Ward is a complete idiot when it comes to cross checking his rules. He has some great ideas which are generally poorly executed. In friendlies I wouldn't care which way people ruled it as it is a game however in a tournament, at least a competitive one I would always say to my opponent he/she could do it no matter what a T.O said as most T.Os have absolutely no idea what they are talking about.

 

Send an email to GW so that they put it in the FAQ. We are all 99% sure they didn't mean for this but then again I would have been 99% sure that Draigo doesn't just kill everything in the realm of Chaos but Matt Ward proved me wrong therem on logic and it isnt the first time.

 

As long as we can agree that the guy CAN disembark I don't care about anything else. We can then say we think RAI is whatever we think it is but lets at least clarrify what RAW states, and I believe unfortunately RAW sucks in this case. But it is what it is.

 

Regards,

 

Crynn

[Gentlemanloser]

I'll add it to the FAQ list. :lol: