Murdureous Hurricane

[elithren]

So was playing another SW player when he had his rune priest cast MH on a squad of guys about 30" away and used the arguement that the damage is done at the 18" while the terrain effect has unlimited range. I think it's a load of bull as the power says that it has a range of 18", not that the terrain can go on forever. What is your guys' take on it and how would you help our brother see the error of his ways?

[Simo429]

He's talking rubbish, you have to be able to hit them to put them in difficult and dangerous terrain and at >24' you can't be hit.

[MalachiOfRuss]

So was playing another SW player when he had his rune priest cast MH on a squad of guys about 30" away and used the arguement that the damage is done at the 18" while the terrain effect has unlimited range. I think it's a load of bull as the power says that it has a range of 18", not that the terrain can go on forever. What is your guys' take on it and how would you help our brother see the error of his ways?

His idea that the terrain effect has unlimited range comes from this FAQ wording:

Q. Does Murderous Hurricane require the power to hit or

wound its target to affect them? (p37)

A. No, a targeted unit is affected by Murderous Hurricane

even if the power fails to hit or wound.

So, the rules lawyers will say that if a unit is out of range of the power it automatically "misses" but the FAQ ruling appears to say even if it "misses" then the unit is still affected. Although I can see the point, I would say it is rules lawyering at the extreme.

[slmellon]

Well for one, it only has an 18" range so the unit he shot at would have been out and he would have auto missed and nothing would have happened at all. If they were within 18 and everything went according to plan, ie psychic check roll goes off, then the "target unit" (whether any shots even hit) would treat "all terrain, even clear terrain, as both difficult and dangerous" just like its says on page 37. The issue here is the range, seeing as its a shooting attack the target "unit" has to be within range Unlike JAWS in which he is technically targetting a line in the ground from the RP to 24" away there has to be a unit to target within 18 for MH

 

BLUF: target unit within 18", psych check, dangerous difficult terrain for unit for turn.

[slmellon]

They still have to within range, failing to hit or wound is about dice rolling. Per page 17 in the BRB: "If a target is beyond the maximum range, it misses automatically. This is why you have to choose your target before measuring for range."

[dswanick]

His idea that the terrain effect has unlimited range comes from this FAQ wording:

Q. Does Murderous Hurricane require the power to hit or

wound its target to affect them? (p37)

A. No, a targeted unit is affected by Murderous Hurricane

even if the power fails to hit or wound.

So, the rules lawyers will say that if a unit is out of range of the power it automatically "misses" but the FAQ ruling appears to say even if it "misses" then the unit is still affected. Although I can see the point, I would say it is rules lawyering at the extreme.

They still have to within range, failing to hit or wound is about dice rolling. Per page 17 in the BRB: "If a target is beyond the maximum range, it misses automatically. This is why you have to choose your target before measuring for range."

And yet the above quoted FAQ specifies that the DT portion counts even if the power "misses". You've just shown how this Wolf player played the power per RaW.

[MalachiOfRuss]

I think the FAQ was very poorly worded. Second only to the (quickly rescinded) wording of "exactly like the unit initiated the assault" on that counter-attack ruling. Yikes.

[slmellon]

His idea that the terrain effect has unlimited range comes from this FAQ wording:

Q. Does Murderous Hurricane require the power to hit or

wound its target to affect them? (p37)

A. No, a targeted unit is affected by Murderous Hurricane

even if the power fails to hit or wound.

So, the rules lawyers will say that if a unit is out of range of the power it automatically "misses" but the FAQ ruling appears to say even if it "misses" then the unit is still affected. Although I can see the point, I would say it is rules lawyering at the extreme.

They still have to within range, failing to hit or wound is about dice rolling. Per page 17 in the BRB: "If a target is beyond the maximum range, it misses automatically. This is why you have to choose your target before measuring for range."

And yet the above quoted FAQ specifies that the DT portion counts even if the power "misses". You've just shown how this Wolf player played the power per RaW.

 

So basically your saying RAW says MH has Unlimited Range? I don't think so. No matter what has been FAQ'd it is still a Shooting attack and has to be within range. Again "To Hit" and "To Wound" are dice rolls ie roll all ones no hits or wounds but the power still affects the unit, if they are within 18"

[MalachiOfRuss]

It could be interpreted that way. Not that you can damage things at unlimited range, but you can give any unit the "difficult terrain" effect at unlimited range.

 

Personally, I believe that is not the Rules as Intended, so I will not be looking to play it that way in any of my games. But I cannot deny that the rules could be interpreted that way.

[Iacton Qruze]

RaW, you can target a unit outside the 18" range, and they will still be affected by the DT. It was poorly written though, as if you actually read the rules for MH, you don't even roll to hit in the first place. They should have just said you don't have to wound anything to trigger the DT, but you still have to hit your target.

[Simo429]

YOu could argue it with RAW but no judge in a tournament would accept it

[MalachiOfRuss]

They should have just said you don't have to wound anything to trigger the DT, but you still have to hit your target.

I believe this is what was intended, and how I would play it.

[Iacton Qruze]

That's how I play it and how I think it's intended as well.

 

If a judge doesn't go for it that's fine, unless they claim to rule based on RaW. Rules lawyers typically latch onto RaW, which in this case allows for unlimited DT.

 

I'd ask your opponent about it pre-game, if they are fielding Runepriests, as it's pretty cut and dry for one side or the other, depending on if you want to go by the spirit of the rules, or if you want to be WAAC douche.

[dswanick]

So basically your saying RAW says MH has Unlimited Range? I don't think so. No matter what has been FAQ'd it is still a Shooting attack and has to be within range. Again "To Hit" and "To Wound" are dice rolls ie roll all ones no hits or wounds but the power still affects the unit, if they are within 18"

RaW, yes. Here's the rule :

This power is a psychic shooting attack with a range of 18". The target unit takes 3D6 Strength 3 hit with a AP -. Place a marker next to the affected unit - next turn that unit treats all terrain, even clear terrain, as both difficult and dangerous.

Notice that the power says the shooting attack has a range of 18", and that the unit takes 3d6 S3 hits. No roll to hit is required. Now look at the FAQ

Q. Does Murderous Hurricane require the power to hit or wound its target to affect them? (p37)

A. No, a targeted unit is affected by Murderous Hurricane even if the power fails to hit or wound.

Now how else can the psychic shooting attack miss if you aren't called upon to roll to hit? Well you can miss by finding your target unit out of range, that is an auto miss. You quoted the relevant BRB rule yourself. Now look at the next sentence of the powers rules. The unit affected by this power, even if they are not hit or wounded still receives the DT portion with no range mentioned. So the rule coupled with the FAQ seems to state that a successful use of the power causes 3d6 Str 3 hits out to 18" and DT effects regardless of the range of the target unit from the psycher. Do I agree with/like/play the power this way? Nope, I RaI it to mean that the powers DT affects are 18" limited as well, but RaW - the way it was played is the valid interpretation.

[slmellon]

Just got off the phone with Madison from GW:

 

Murderous Hurricane has a range of 18." PERIOD

 

"To Hit" and "To Wound" are dice rolls done after picking the target, checking line of sight, checking for range, then rolling for the psychic test. In this case wouldn't be rolled because the range is to far and the shooting sequence for that unit is over for that turn right then.

 

In the shooting sequence taking a psychic check for the shot comes after picking the target and checking range. It comes in part 3 of 6, like rolling "Gets Hot!" for a plasma cannon.--If the target was 37" the plasma cannon wouldn't roll for Get's Hot!, he would even shoot. Same applies for this.

[dswanick]

Great, :rolleyes: so as soon as Madison updates the FAQ to v1.2 and publishes it on the GW website it will actually carry some weight. By the way, on what basis did Madison determine that making the Psychic Test comes after determining the range to target? I've played in several groups were a Psychic Test comes first and the player risked a Perils of the Warp on a PSA that was found to be out of range.

[Light Warden]

"This power is a psychic shooting attack with a range of 18". The target unit takes 3D6 strength 3 hits with AP-. Place a marker next to the AFFECTED unit- next turn that unit treats all terrain, even clear terrain, as both difficult and dangerous.

 

I would suggest this out of the codex pretty much says that the AFFECTED unit..., it's not AFFECTED beyond 18" because there are no additional dice rolls or AFFECTS of the power it hits random piece of ground half way between RP and target, but unAFFECTED unit.

[slmellon]

"This power is a psychic shooting attack with a range of 18". The target unit takes 3D6 strength 3 hits with AP-. Place a marker next to the AFFECTED unit- next turn that unit treats all terrain, even clear terrain, as both difficult and dangerous.

 

I would suggest this out of the codex pretty much says that the AFFECTED unit..., it's not AFFECTED beyond 18" because there are no additional dice rolls or AFFECTS of the power it hits random piece of ground half way between RP and target, but unAFFECTED unit.

 

So basically no affect past 18" yes? That makes sense. It's concise and to the Point...Murderous Hurricane has no effect past 18"

If you believe otherwise its all good, but I wouldn't suggest trying it in an official tourny.

[Light Warden]

Yes, the power didn't miss, it failed to affect the target (in every sense).

[dswanick]

Yes, the power didn't miss, it failed to affect the target (in every sense).

And if the target unit is not hit and not wounded it is "unaffected" as well - in direct conflict with the FAQ. Still not RaW.

[Light Warden]

The target unit takes 3D6 strength 3 hits, that tells me that the unit was hit and affected. over 18"doesn't hit, unit not affected. And I do see that the FAQ is poorly worded, and too me pointless as the power to hit requires 18" and psychic test pass.

[dswanick]

The target unit takes 3D6 strength 3 hits, that tells me that the unit was hit and affected. over 18"doesn't hit, unit not affected.

Exactly. Over 18", doesn't hit, unit is "unaffected". Now expplain this:

Q. Does Murderous Hurricane require the power to hit or wound its target to affect them? (p37)

A. No, a targeted unit is affected by Murderous Hurricane even if the power fails to hit or wound.

[Light Warden]

I concede, but need new FAQ needs to be written, as that conflicts with codex.

[slmellon]

Q. Does Murderous Hurricane require the power

to hit or wound its target to affect them?

A. No, a targeted unit is affected by Murderous

Hurricane even if the power fails to hit or

wound.

 

So Because the question mentions nothing of range it negates the original 18" range rule. So as long as the RP can see something and passes his psychic check he can affect anything on the board?

 

RAW says it has an 18" range. How does the FAQ effect this?,

 

My wife who doesnt play and has only a vague concept of the rules says "if I am shooting at the end of the driveway and can only reach the end of the car, how can I hit the end of the driveway?

 

Hell by the FAQ he doesnt even have to pass the psychic check, just say which unit and then it is so.

 

It must be it was FAQ'd

[dswanick]

So Because the question mentions nothing of range it negates the original 18" range rule. So as long as the RP can see something and passes his psychic check he can affect anything on the board?

 

RAW says it has an 18" range. How does the FAQ effect this?,

 

My wife who doesnt play and has only a vague concept of the rules says "if I am shooting at the end of the driveway and can only reach the end of the car, how can I hit the end of the driveway?

 

The power has two components : a Psychic Shooting Attack component with an 18" range and a Terrain altering component without a specified range. You can certainly conclude that the Terrain altering component has an unstated range equal to the Psychic Shooting Attack, but that is Rule as Interpreted/Intended not Rule as Written. As Written it does not have a range.

 

Hell by the FAQ he doesnt even have to pass the psychic check, just say which unit and then it is so.

 

Where does it say this? Nowhere does the FAQ specify that a Psychic Test is not required to activate the power. Are we reading the same rules?

 

It must be it was FAQ'd