Murdureous Hurricane

[MalachiOfRuss]

GW has a phone number for rules questions?

[dswanick]

GW has a phone number for rules questions?

No, they did away with The Rulez Boyz years ago. And most people don't put any stock in the proclamations of the current Customer Service guys because half of them don't play the game, and the other half don't seem to know how to play. Ask the Customer Service crew any question five time and you'll get three different answer and two responses of "we don't answer rules questions". Thus the problem. In my house MH has been house ruled to only affect units it hits. It sounds like slmellon's house rule is the same. In your LGS their house rule prevails. In a pickup game you either need to discuss it with your opponent or accept that this kind of "interpretation" will crop up on Murderous Hurricane and plan accordingly.

[slmellon]

So Because the question mentions nothing of range it negates the original 18" range rule. So as long as the RP can see something and passes his psychic check he can affect anything on the board?

 

RAW says it has an 18" range. How does the FAQ effect this?,

 

The power has two components : a Psychic Shooting Attack component with an 18" range and a Terrain altering component without a specified range. You can certainly conclude that the Terrain altering component has an unstated range equal to the Psychic Shooting Attack, but that is Rule as Interpreted/Intended not Rule as Written. As Written it does not have a range.

 

Hell by the FAQ he doesnt even have to pass the psychic check, just say which unit and then it is so.

 

Where does it say this? Nowhere does the FAQ specify that a Psychic Test is not required to activate the power. Are we reading the same rules?

 

Exactly, no where in the FAQ does it mention anything other than the effect of what happens if the power fails TO HIT or TO WOUND. Since nothing else was talked about, in my mind, then by RAW MH has an 18" Range which whether it causes any damage to the unit still affects it per terrain.

 

What it seems to me is that some people are interpretting it to mean that if it fails to hit because of range per the FAQ it still affects the terrain, and since they think that range doesn't matter, I assume that I will think that I don't have to take a psychic test becasue it mentions nothing of one in the FAQ.

[Rain Finale]

The argument for unit is affected even on a failed psychic test is silly. Obviously, if psychic test fails, then you don't even get to the part of reading what the power does. Technically, aren't you supposed to take and pass a psychic test before you check range?

 

That said, it is odd that the FAQ says "a targeted unit is affected by Murderous Hurricane even if the power fails to hit or wound" considering you do not roll "to hit" on a successful Murderous Hurricane considering the power says the unit "takes 3D6 hits with AP-" just as you don't roll "to hit" for JotWW.

 

Why then was "to hit" included in the FAQ? Looking at the BRB p.17 under CHECK RANGE, "If a target is beyond this maximum range, the shot misses automatically." It's seems like by RAW and the FAQ that trying to shoot someone (after passing psychic test) with Murderous Hurricane outside of 18" would inflict the terrain penalty just not the hits. At the same time, that seems quite a bit overpowered if it were true and still there's something off...

 

 

In the Summary at the back of the Codex, the exact wording of Murderous Hurricane is:

"Psychic shooting attack. An enemy unit within 18" of the Rune Priest takes 3D6 Strength 3 hits with AP -. Next turn that unit treats all terrain as both difficult and dangerous."

 

• Done. As per RAW, only an enemy unit within 18" of the Rune Priest treats all terrain as both difficult and dangerous.
  

 

However, this still leaves unsolved why the FAQ says "to hit" in addition to "to wound". How else can it miss? .... cover saves. According to the Rulebook FAQ p.3:

"Q: Do psychic shooting attacks grant cover saves? (p50)

A: Yes, as long as they cause wounds. Cover saves are

taken against wounds caused by psychic shooting attacks,

not against any other ʻweirderʼ effects of the psychic

power."

 

Looking again at the Space Wolves FAQ wording:

"Q. Does Murderous Hurricane require the power to hit or

wound its target to affect them? (p37)

A. No, a targeted unit is affected by Murderous Hurricane

even if the power fails to hit or wound."

 

Thus the SW FAQ on Murderous Hurricane is merely confirming that the "other 'weirder' effects of the psychic power", as said in the rulebook FAQ, still apply. That GW in answering the SW FAQ said the targeted unit is affected is an oversight in not thinking that anyone would use it even if they knew it was out of range.

 

Now, you could argue with me that cover saves are taken only after wounds are rolled for which I would agree with you. From a fluff-wise perspective though, a cover save does represent a shot missing not that "fluff" holds up to anything in a rules dispute. The only other possible explanation I can think of would be that GW was not considering the fact that Murderous Hurricane does not roll "to hit". The intention behind the FAQ wording is still not completely clear, however, that the Codex says in two places (p. 37 "the affected unit" & even more clearer p. 96 "unit within 18") is enough to dispel the idea to me that it has a sneaky unlimited range effect.

 

 

Finally, we Space Wolves honestly DO NOT need another powerful advantage to beat our opponents. There comes a point where winning isn't fun if it's too easy all the time and fielding 4 Rune Priests with Murderous Hurricane with unlimited range in addition to our Long Fangs and Grey Hunters is nothing short of "too easy". You don't need to fight so hard for such an advantage as this :cuss

[dswanick]

In the Summary at the back of the Codex, the exact wording of Murderous Hurricane is:

"Psychic shooting attack. An enemy unit within 18" of the Rune Priest takes 3D6 Strength 3 hits with AP -. Next turn that unit treats all terrain as both difficult and dangerous."

Very nice. While I don't think your argument on cover saves holds any water - as the FAQ does specify hits and wounds, and saves don't negate hits just the wounds. I do like that the summary in the codex is worded differently and much "clearer" in this case. It is the strongest RaW evidence that the rule is only supposed to apply the DT affect to a unit which was found to be in range of the PSA. Thank you. ;)

[Rain Finale]

You're welcome. The cover saves is more fluffy but that was only for trying to figure out why GW included "to hit" as well as "to wound". I guess they just forgot that there's no roll to hit for MH.

[Decoy]

As the rule is written (RAW), the power does indeed affect units beyond 18". Since the effect has no range (as dictated by the Power rules and by the FAQ), you do not need to hit, wound, or even be in range. The rule, oddly, is almost perfectly worded to allow MH to affect things outside of 18".

 

Now. Is that the -sportsmanlike- way to play it? Hell no. Is it the -Correct- way to play it? Yes. I'd wager most mature and reasonable folk will simply go for the 18". However, RAW very strongly supports infinite range, and you will see that at the upper levels of tournament play (Saw just such an event a couple months back; Three RPs keeping half the enemy army in DT from the opposite corner of the board.) The tournament officials almost always rule on the side of RAW, so be prepared for it.

[Simo429]

As you check range (brb page 15) before you roll to hit I think that removes the RAW debate, you cannot shoot anything that is out of range.

[Rain Finale]

As you check range (brb page 15) before you roll to hit I think that removes the RAW debate, you cannot shoot anything that is out of range.

 

Read on. p. 17. Shot automatically misses. You still shoot but if out of range it misses is all. This is important especially when shooting plasma guns as even if your target comes up out of range, you still have to roll for 'Gets Hot'

[Decoy]

As you check range (brb page 15) before you roll to hit I think that removes the RAW debate, you cannot shoot anything that is out of range.

 

Read on. p. 17. Shot automatically misses. You still shoot but if out of range it misses is all. This is important especially when shooting plasma guns as even if your target comes up out of range, you still have to roll for 'Gets Hot'

 

 

Exactly.

 

I target MH at the unit 78" away. MH misses. -whether or not I hit or miss-, unit is in DT.

[DV8]

As absurd as it is, I will have to agree that by RAW, Murderous Hurricane can in fact pin down units beyond the 18" range.

 

Rulebook, p. 16 (under Check Line of Sight and Pick a Target)

...In order to select an enemy unit as a target, at least one model in the firing unit must have line of sight to at least one model in the target unit. If no models have line of sight then a different target must be chosen.

 

Rulebook, p. 17 (under Check Range)

All weapons have a maximum effective range, which is the furthest distance they can shoot. If a target is beyond this maximum range, the shot misses automatically.

 

Note that the only requirement to declare a unit your target is that you be within line of sight.

 

What this means is that, by RAW, you can elect a target that you know for certain is beyond the maximum range of your unit's weapons. The only consequence of not electing another target is that all of your unit's shots miss automatically, any Plasma Weaponry must roll for over-heat, etc. As you have already declared a target, you cannot shoot at anything else, and the rulebook does not force you to pick another target if you know you're out of range.

 

By so doing, even though all your shots miss, the unit you "attempted" to shoot at still remains your target (you can't charge anything else but your target unit, for example)

 

This, combined with the poorly worded FAQ, does infact mean that even though Murderous Hurricane may not inflict the 3D6 S3 AP- hits (as this effect only has an 18" range), that the target unit will be affected by the additional effects of the power (treating all terrain, even clear, as dangerous and difficult).

 

Again as mentioned, is this legal? Yes. Sporting? No. Most reasonable players will of course play by intent and not bother with the shenanigans that would result in targeting units more than 18" away with Murderous Hurricane, but if a player attempts it, by RAW they are fully allowed to.

 

Just like you are fully allowed to give them a big fat zero for sportsmanship.

 

 

DV8

[hendrik]

This, combined with the poorly worded FAQ, does infact mean that even though Murderous Hurricane may not inflict the 3D6 S3 AP- hits (as this effect only has an 18" range), that the target unit will be affected by the additional effects of the power (treating all terrain, even clear, as dangerous and difficult).

DV8

and to give a fluffwise swing to it that will convince all the nay-sayers:

runepriest Irnest bellowed an ancient curse and his frosted breath coalesces and grows into a deadly blizzard. within moments, the rune priest's foes are all but consumed in a hurricane, the freezing shards, a housand blades of psychic ice that would be plunging into their flesh failing to hit them by at least 25". but beware for the hurricane, for it has ripped off branches and stones and turned all the ground in front of them into a dangerous and difficult terrain to cross

 

but seriously, this is actually one of those cases in which the case is crystal clear. does it smell fishy, maybe, but both the codex, FAQ and rulebook are quite clear on it

[Simo429]

Its crystal clear is you are a WAAC gamer but NO tournament ref would ever rule that a unit that is 48' away would be in dangerous terrain when hit with a power that has a 24 inch range.

[dswanick]

Its crystal clear is you are a WAAC gamer but NO tournament ref would ever rule that a unit that is 48' away would be in dangerous terrain when hit with a power that has a 24 inch range.

 

Been there, ruled that. Plus you may want to peruse the B&CS Forum rules concerning how you interact with fellow posters as the first part of your response skirts pretty close to the edge of unacceptable behavior according to the ToS.

[Thunderhawk3015]

If someone is going to try and pull this there is an easy solution. Pack your models up, thank your opponent for the game and leave. Eventually they will get the idea that what they are doing is while "legal" nowhere near what was intended.