Purgation Squads

[Master Toddius]

I had an evil thought tonight as I was getting in my first game with the 5th edition GK's VS a friends BA's:

 

Purgation Squad armed with 4 Incinerators mounted in a Las/HB LR.

 

You get the best of both worlds:

1. Lascannons for anti armor.

2. Astral Aim incinerators fired from within the LR.

 

Is there any major problems with this strategy? Is it legal to do?

[uberschveinen]

The problem is that it may not actually be that good. A Land Raider Thingwithflamer costs much less than the two units, and has the Multi-Melta for actual tank-breaking. Lascannon are long-ranged weapons whose best use is being fired from beyond the rantge of retaliation for some weapons. Seeing as you have to approach the enemy anyway to use your gentlemen, you're not maximising value from the Lascannon. Now that said, a Land Raider Thingwithflamer with the Purgation Incinerators inside would be a cruel and unusual weapon.

 

If you mean ruleswise, by the strict wording of the rule and applying the least possible creativity to the interpretative gap, your Incinerators do in fact ignore the Astral Aim cover save. AA prevents modification of the save. This is not a modification; it is a negation. It is entirely possible what they meant was that it should stand, but the precise wording of the rule does not indicate that at all. Now, I'm not sure how the templating works from vehicle passengers when there are no firepoints, though. There is, as far as I can tell, no rule for that. It is either not allowed at all, or can be placed with small-end touching any part of the firing vehicle. There isn't any precedent for this rule either, so it's basically a matter of negotiation. Talk with the other guy first. Also, if you start going on about Incinerators negating the AA save, your opponent is very likely going to argue that your Incinerators can't fire at all. Coming to a gentleman's agreement before the game saves the need for rules-lawyering that just frustrates and annoys both parties, and makes the game that much slower and less fun.

[Brother Knight]

That would be sweet but RAI says no unfortunately. You can't fire your incinerators whilst in the LR unles you fancy bbq your own squad, and let me tell you they don't taste great ^_^ However you can get out and THEN flame your opponent, however if that appeals to you may I suggest paladins for their durability as they will get shot, the ability to get into combat and keep your NFW as well as being able to carry 2 incinerators in a 5 man squad.

[BrotherWasted]

The Land Raider has no fire points. Even with Astral Aim you're not even allowed to fire those Incinerators in the first place.

[Angelis Mortis]

The Land Raider has no fire points. Even with Astral Aim you're not even allowed to fire those Incinerators in the first place.

 

That would be the problem with it. Lol. While you can use your Astral Aim inside all you want, you can't use the weapons. Astral Aim lets you fire through terrain that blocks your LOS, a Land Raider isn't terrain. I would also argue the last line about not be able to target an enemy unit inside a vehicle would make it painfully obvious you couldn't target from within one as well.

[Master Toddius]

Ok, I will bend on the fact that the rules state we can't target a mounted enemy unit and say the same is true that when there aren't fire points on a vehicle you can't shoot out of it. But no where in the rules does it state we can't shoot through friendly Or enemy vehicles.

 

It states on page 29 of the GK dex:

"...the unit can shoot at any enemy unit within range, even if they don't have line of sight to it..."

 

All it speaks of is line of sight. Theres no mention of what you can or cannot shoot through. So for example we could walk a P squad 6 inches per turn behind a LR moving 6 inches and shoot an enemy without having LOS by essentially shooting through the LR to hit the enemy. The plus is we never expose the purgation team to enemy shooting but we do give up a cover save to 4+ armor.

 

Correct?

[Angelis Mortis]

Ok, I will bend on the fact that the rules state we can't target a mounted enemy unit and say the same is true that when there aren't fire points on a vehicle you can't shoot out of it. But no where in the rules does it state we can't shoot through friendly Or enemy vehicles.

 

It states on page 29 of the GK dex:

"...the unit can shoot at any enemy unit within range, even if they don't have line of sight to it..."

 

All it speaks of is line of sight. Theres no mention of what you can or cannot shoot through. So for example we could walk a P squad 6 inches per turn behind a LR moving 6 inches and shoot an enemy without having LOS by essentially shooting through the LR to hit the enemy. The plus is we never expose the purgation team to enemy shooting but we do give up a cover save to 4+ armor.

 

Correct?

 

Ok, tell me how you would determine range from the Purgation squad while its mounted? Seeing as you would have to measure from the squads base and not the vehicle, good luck with that.

[Angelis Mortis]

I'm surprised nobody has tried to claim they can shoot from reserve yet, since they don't need LOS.

[Chengar Qordath]

It states on page 29 of the GK dex:

"...the unit can shoot at any enemy unit within range, even if they don't have line of sight to it..."

 

All it speaks of is line of sight. Theres no mention of what you can or cannot shoot through. So for example we could walk a P squad 6 inches per turn behind a LR moving 6 inches and shoot an enemy without having LOS by essentially shooting through the LR to hit the enemy. The plus is we never expose the purgation team to enemy shooting but we do give up a cover save to 4+ armor.

 

Correct?

Seems right to me; ignoring LoS restrictions would work the same whether it's terrain or models that are in the way. If it's in range and a valid target (i.e. not in close combat or otherwise blocked from being shot at), you can shoot it.

[Angelis Mortis]

It states on page 29 of the GK dex:

"...the unit can shoot at any enemy unit within range, even if they don't have line of sight to it..."

 

All it speaks of is line of sight. Theres no mention of what you can or cannot shoot through. So for example we could walk a P squad 6 inches per turn behind a LR moving 6 inches and shoot an enemy without having LOS by essentially shooting through the LR to hit the enemy. The plus is we never expose the purgation team to enemy shooting but we do give up a cover save to 4+ armor.

 

Correct?

Seems right to me; ignoring LoS restrictions would work the same whether it's terrain or models that are in the way. If it's in range and a valid target (i.e. not in close combat or otherwise blocked from being shot at), you can shoot it.

 

May seem right to you, but you have to read the rule on firing points. It over-rules astral aim. While you may not be required to have a LOS, you are still required to be able to shoot. Lack of firing points means nobody is able to shoot. Now, if you were in a Chimera, I would say you could use it, up to the number of firing points.

[Chengar Qordath]

It states on page 29 of the GK dex:

"...the unit can shoot at any enemy unit within range, even if they don't have line of sight to it..."

 

All it speaks of is line of sight. Theres no mention of what you can or cannot shoot through. So for example we could walk a P squad 6 inches per turn behind a LR moving 6 inches and shoot an enemy without having LOS by essentially shooting through the LR to hit the enemy. The plus is we never expose the purgation team to enemy shooting but we do give up a cover save to 4+ armor.

 

Correct?

Seems right to me; ignoring LoS restrictions would work the same whether it's terrain or models that are in the way. If it's in range and a valid target (i.e. not in close combat or otherwise blocked from being shot at), you can shoot it.

 

May seem right to you, but you have to read the rule on firing points. It over-rules astral aim. While you may not be required to have a LOS, you are still required to be able to shoot. Lack of firing points means nobody is able to shoot. Now, if you were in a Chimera, I would say you could use it, up to the number of firing points.

In the post I was responding to he was referring to squad footslogging, so firing points are completely irrelevant.

[XaClocKWorKoX]

I'm surprised nobody has tried to claim they can shoot from reserve yet, since they don't need LOS.

 

 

OH YOU ARE SO SILLLLY

[Angelis Mortis]

It states on page 29 of the GK dex:

"...the unit can shoot at any enemy unit within range, even if they don't have line of sight to it..."

 

All it speaks of is line of sight. Theres no mention of what you can or cannot shoot through. So for example we could walk a P squad 6 inches per turn behind a LR moving 6 inches and shoot an enemy without having LOS by essentially shooting through the LR to hit the enemy. The plus is we never expose the purgation team to enemy shooting but we do give up a cover save to 4+ armor.

 

Correct?

Seems right to me; ignoring LoS restrictions would work the same whether it's terrain or models that are in the way. If it's in range and a valid target (i.e. not in close combat or otherwise blocked from being shot at), you can shoot it.

 

May seem right to you, but you have to read the rule on firing points. It over-rules astral aim. While you may not be required to have a LOS, you are still required to be able to shoot. Lack of firing points means nobody is able to shoot. Now, if you were in a Chimera, I would say you could use it, up to the number of firing points.

In the post I was responding to he was referring to squad footslogging, so firing points are completely irrelevant.

 

Footslogging is not what this thread is about. Its about using Astral Aim to fire from within a vehicle without fire points.

[Master Toddius]

Ok, tell me how you would determine range from the Purgation squad while its mounted? Seeing as you would have to measure from the squads base and not the vehicle, good luck with that.

 

I would assume if we had agreed the mounted squad could fire from within the LR (i said i'd bend to the rules that state we can't shoot at enemy squads mounted in transports then we ourselves can't therefore shoot without firing points within a vehicle) that it would work the same as a rhino mounted flamer shooting. Place the template against the haul directed toward the enemy.

 

That being said, the other example I gave was foot sloggers marching behind a vehicle firing at enemy targets without the use of LOS. Which by RAW is allowed. I'm just questioning not being able to shoot from within a vehicle regardless of available firing points.

 

I'm surprised nobody has tried to claim they can shoot from reserve yet, since they don't need LOS.

 

:D

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Nah, the fire points thing would still be the issue. 'Astral Aim' even states (if you read the whole entry) that other restrictions on shooting still apply. It only removes the need for LOS, the enemy still has to be in range, you can't shoot if Pinned etc.

 

Anyway, Purgation squads = fail. Why not Purifiers? They get free incinerators, plus they win in close-combat (which is where you'll be, one way or another, if you're using flamer type weapons of any kind).

[Chengar Qordath]

Nah, the fire points thing would still be the issue. 'Astral Aim' even states (if you read the whole entry) that other restrictions on shooting still apply. It only removes the need for LOS, the enemy still has to be in range, you can't shoot if Pinned etc.

 

Anyway, Purgation squads = fail. Why not Purifiers? They get free incinerators, plus they win in close-combat (which is where you'll be, one way or another, if you're using flamer type weapons of any kind).

Not to mention that Heavy Support slots are one of the most valuable things in any GK army thanks to Psyflemen and Land Raiders.

[Angelis Mortis]

Anyway, Purgation squads = fail. Why not Purifiers? They get free incinerators, plus they win in close-combat (which is where you'll be, one way or another, if you're using flamer type weapons of any kind).

 

Purgation squads are hardly fail. Your talking about a Devastator Squad (which are not fail either), that can move and shoot, shoot through blocking terrain, and kick ass in melee. A Dev Squad all armed with Force Weapons and Assault Weapons for crying out loud. Hardly fail.

[Master Toddius]

Nah, the fire points thing would still be the issue. 'Astral Aim' even states (if you read the whole entry) that other restrictions on shooting still apply. It only removes the need for LOS, the enemy still has to be in range, you can't shoot if Pinned etc.

 

Anyway, Purgation squads = fail. Why not Purifiers? They get free incinerators, plus they win in close-combat (which is where you'll be, one way or another, if you're using flamer type weapons of any kind).

 

 

There is no mention that other restrictions still apply anywhere on page 29 on Astral Aim. The only notable restriction is not being able to fire at troops that are embarked and if you choose to use the power it grants a 4+ cover save to the enemy target.

 

I'm not going to say fail just yet. 5 guys with 4 incinerators/psycannons is pretty awesome for point costs. You have to take 10 purifiers before gaining the 4 heavies. But i think we all can agree that purifiers are fairly amazing to begin with. I'm just trying to find a use for the purgation squads other than point savings.

[Chengar Qordath]

Nah, the fire points thing would still be the issue. 'Astral Aim' even states (if you read the whole entry) that other restrictions on shooting still apply. It only removes the need for LOS, the enemy still has to be in range, you can't shoot if Pinned etc.

 

Anyway, Purgation squads = fail. Why not Purifiers? They get free incinerators, plus they win in close-combat (which is where you'll be, one way or another, if you're using flamer type weapons of any kind).

 

 

There is no mention that other restrictions still apply anywhere on page 29 on Astral Aim. The only notable restriction is not being able to fire at troops that are embarked and if you choose to use the power it grants a 4+ cover save to the enemy target.

 

I'm not going to say fail just yet. 5 guys with 4 incinerators/psycannons is pretty awesome for point costs. You have to take 10 purifiers before gaining the 4 heavies. But i think we all can agree that purifiers are fairly amazing to begin with. I'm just trying to find a use for the purgation squads other than point savings.

Quite; Purgation squads are not bad; it's just that they don't bring anything unique to the table aside from Astral Aim, while other HS options do. There are plenty of other ways to get Psycannons in your list, but the Psyfleman, Land Raider, and Dreadknight are all pretty unique.

[BrotherWasted]

Which means they are bad.

 

It doesn't matter what people think of them, in any event. You can't fire out of a vehicle with no fire points, so using Astral Aim is pointless whilst inside a vehicle.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Purgation squads are hardly fail. Your talking about a Devastator Squad (which are not fail either), that can move and shoot, shoot through blocking terrain, and kick ass in melee. A Dev Squad all armed with Force Weapons and Assault Weapons for crying out loud. Hardly fail.

 

Devastators suck, I'm afraid to say, so if you're taking them with your regular Marines, I will point and laugh at you as an opponent :) . Sternguard are flat-out better for lascannon or plasma cannon spam, and for missile launchers Typhoons are superior (for only 10pts more than a full-strength Devastator squad with no upgrades, you get the same number of missile shots but on a fast skimmer platform in Fast Attack).

 

A quick comparison between Purgators and Purifiers will demonstrate what I mean;

 

Flame Knight, 5 x Purifiers, 4 x Purifiers w/psycannon

 

vs

 

Justicar, 5 x Purgators, 4 x Purgators w/psycannon

 

Points cost: They cost exactly the same. In terms of nemesis upgrades, the Purifiers have cheaper ones (psybolt costs the same for both)

Ranged output: Purgators can shoot through walls, but they grant 4+ cover to the target. Purifiers can't shoot through walls, but they don't grant a bonus to the enemy. Damage wise, it's the same (assuming both have LOS).

Close-combat output: Purifiers have twice the attacks, plus they have 'Cleansing Flame' built in to prevent tar-pitting them (and thus preventing shooting). Combined with their cheaper nemesis upgrades (for the price of putting a master-crafted hammer on the Purgator Justicar, I can outfit five Purifiers with halberds and have change for a hammer as well), they easily outperform Purgators in close-combat.

 

Oppertunity cost: Purgators eat a Heavy Support slot, Purifiers eat an Elite slot.

 

So, Purgators either only equal the Purifiers at certain things, or are flat-out worse. Hence, they fail.

[Chengar Qordath]

When it comes to the debate on the usefulness of Purgation squads, one thing that hasn't come up yet is the cheap and small Incinerator-spam squad. If you're at a low-ish point value where you still have HS slots open and/or your local meta is heavy on hordes, the ability to field a very cheap unit with four incinerators can be nice asset.

[Angelis Mortis]

Devastators suck, I'm afraid to say, so if you're taking them with your regular Marines, I will point and laugh at you as an opponent :tu: . Sternguard are flat-out better for lascannon or plasma cannon spam, and for missile launchers Typhoons are superior (for only 10pts more than a full-strength Devastator squad with no upgrades, you get the same number of missile shots but on a fast skimmer platform in Fast Attack).

 

See this is where you guys seem to be confused. You think because another unit is somewhat better at something than another, that the minor unit somehow "sucks". Devs in no way "suck". Spamming Heavy Weapons on a BS 4 unit will never in the history of 40k "suck". You apparently need some better opponents. It sounds to be of the same mentality as people who seem to think TL AC Dreads are a must have, a min of 2 in every list. I will take two Dev Squads and you can take 3 TL AC Dreads and after a couple rounds see who has any models left. Then I think, I will be the one pointing and laughing. BTW, I don't have the luxury of Sternguard. I play Dark Angels.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

When it comes to the debate on the usefulness of Purgation squads, one thing that hasn't come up yet is the cheap and small Incinerator-spam squad. If you're at a low-ish point value where you still have HS slots open and/or your local meta is heavy on hordes, the ability to field a very cheap unit with four incinerators can be nice asset.

 

I guess, but my question to you would be 'why are your Elite slots full but your Heavy Support slots not?'. Purifiers still got them beat in that department, because when you charge Purifiers, you cry. When you charge Purgators, they stop being awesome and just die (just like poor little Strike squads :P ).

 

See this is where you guys seem to be confused. You think because another unit is somewhat better at something than another, that the minor unit somehow "sucks".

 

Yah, it's called 'compare and contrast'. Also, in a game with finite points limitations and finite time to kill stuff, you have to make rational, efficiency-based choices (intermixed with your innate 'oh but they're sooo cool!' unit selections). If unit A is better than unit B at doing X (and I need X done well), I'm taking unit A.

 

Devs in no way "suck". Spamming Heavy Weapons on a BS 4 unit will never in the history of 40k "suck".

 

I'll just write it out in full, because I think you're not understanding me;

 

Devastator Sarge, 4 x Devastators w/missile launchers, 5 x Devastators

(230 points)

 

2 x Landspeeder Typhoons

(180 points)

 

Unit A costs 50pts more, eats a Heavy Support slot (which you need for Predators), can't move n shoot, and can be tied up in close-combat pretty easily (because just like Tactical Marines, they are exceedingly easy to tarpit).

 

Unit B costs less, can reposition very quickly, can move 12" and shoot, and sits in the spider-web covered FA slot of the army. It also adds more armour saturation to the army (meaning the same guns that would otherwise be applied to your Rhinos or even Predators are now being used on dinky AV10 skimmers).

 

You apparently need some better opponents.

 

I do, but it's not related to my inability to write good lists. It's actually more because one of them writes really good lists (with a really strong army), and the others write average-to-terrible lists and whine all game about my army being OP (this was before our codex update mind you).

 

It sounds to be of the same mentality as people who seem to think TL AC Dreads are a must have, a min of 2 in every list.

 

For Knights, definitely (although I field a Dreadknight in my second/third Heavy slot, because I just can't get over his sheer win). For other Marine armies, I'd recommend Typhoons or Predators for long-range fire support (Blood Angels especially for Preds, Black Templars especially with their cut-price Typhoon).

 

I will take two Dev Squads and you can take 3 TL AC Dreads and after a couple rounds see who has any models left. Then I think, I will be the one pointing and laughing.

 

Why do I have to take 3 RifleDreads? I'm pretty sure I have better alternatives in Heavy Support (except if we're talking Knights).

 

BTW, I don't have the luxury of Sternguard. I play Dark Angels.

 

If you're not doing Ravenwing, Deathwing or Doublewing, I would recommend you steer clear of the DA codex. It was their ill-fated crusade against 'fun' and 'experimentation' that caused both the DA and CSM codicies to be so bland and uninteresting. Srsly, vanilla Marines have so much cooler toys and rules, and functionally there is little difference between the two (except of course, you pay stupid premiums of between 20-30% throughout the DA codex for the same stuff). Deathwing and Ravenwing are amazing, I grant you, but the rest is trash (especially the characters. I mean, Belial and Sammael barely rate as usable because they are required to unlock their army variants).

[Master Toddius]

When speaking of Unit A vs Unit B and building lists you have to also be able to see the game at every angle before deciding what is the absolute truth. Sometimes the obvious isn't always the end game. My game group use to take the wonkiest lists we could come up with and figure out ways to make them work and win. We were motivated from being bored to death of having to play against the same power gamer clone armies at every tournament. And being a DA player I had to really come up with strange strategies in order to win.

 

If we're talking about using psy-rifle dreads there are elite ven dreads available. Maybe theres a build that people aren't considering yet. Ven dreads are very difficult to kill off and maybe instead of using 2 TL AC's we go with 1 TL AC + Psyammo w/ DCCW + SB instead. Utilize the dread as a mid game CC unit instead of solely placing them in cover at distance. Then bring in X number of cheap purgators in a configuration which makes the list work.

 

I love Dev squads. Been using them since 2nd edition and a squad of 4 ML or PC is rather nasty to deal with. Are typhoon speeders really effective points wise, yes in some ways. But a 6 man dev squad can take a lot of punishment when shot at if they're in cover. Can they out maneuver the enemy? - no, but who said every list had to out maneuver the enemy? The hammer and anvil strategy being a good example. A couple of well place ML shots at a typhoon can blow it up where a dev squad in cover can survive much better. The achilles heel is that a dev squad can get mowed down in HTH versus the right CC enemy unit but thats where having the correct balance of shooting and counter assault units come into play.

Believe me I know a lot about speeder tactics. I've been playing pure RW since it was created. Typhoons have their draw backs as well.