Brother Argent Posted May 30, 2011 Share Posted May 30, 2011 Okay so this idea is very WIP at the moment. These are just my notes for the further development for the Chapter. Please remember this is VERY WIP at the moment Sons of Yudeah (Judah) Theme : Christianity//Jewdaism Origins: DA Geneseed Kuis Campaign. Had to fight to gain promised homeworld. Great Service Later end up in Chapter Civil War/attacking the Imperium. Death of Chapter Master as sacrifice for Chapters Sins Penetient Crusade. The New Covenant. No longer hunt the Fallen – ties strained with DA Return eventually Homeworld now converted to all Imperial Homeworld becomes more of a recruitment world Crusading Chapter. Homeworld: Like Jerusalem Had to fight to free (Promised Land) Massive Fortress Monastary (The Temple of Soloman) Civil War Become fleet based Homeworld now recruiting world, Monastary destroyed and converted to huge Cathederal of Imperial Faith. Recruit from several worlds. Massive Capital ship (Vatican) Combat Doctrines Dedicated Unflinching Humanitarian Sometimes a little over self sacrificing Never retreat Stubborn Unrelenting Exalted Marches (Crusades) Organisation Relatively Codex Break from Dark Angels set up Each Company mostly independent if needs be Inner Circle still exists to a degree Crusading Chapter Beliefs Ascendant nature of Humanity Believe in the repentance of sins through service No longer feel the need to hunt the fallen Salvation through sacrifice, Duty till death Life of Service Geneseed: DA (via Guardians of the Covenant ?) Ties strained to breaking point with DA Stable Possible successor chapters Battle Cry Duty till death! Salvation through sacrifice! EDIT: and for those interested here is the colour scheme Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230878-wip-notes-for-the-sons-of-yudeah/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octavulg Posted May 30, 2011 Share Posted May 30, 2011 A ) This risks offending so, so many people. B ) This is about as subtle as a brick. C ) You spelled Judaism wrong. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230878-wip-notes-for-the-sons-of-yudeah/#findComment-2776410 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pulse Posted May 30, 2011 Share Posted May 30, 2011 A ) This risks offending so, so many people. I don't see why as it could turn out to be pretty interesting. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230878-wip-notes-for-the-sons-of-yudeah/#findComment-2776562 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olis Posted May 30, 2011 Share Posted May 30, 2011 My advice is to tread VERY lightly, in this area. It's always going to be difficult to alloy current religious aspects to science fiction that has it's own distinct religion. I would also warn that you might have to consider being prepared to drop the project at some point, if things go awry. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230878-wip-notes-for-the-sons-of-yudeah/#findComment-2776578 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octavulg Posted May 30, 2011 Share Posted May 30, 2011 I don't see why as it could turn out to be pretty interesting. Because it drags in contentious political issues, contentious religious issues, and oppressed ethnic groups, as well as (arguably) trivializing people's deeply held religious beliefs? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230878-wip-notes-for-the-sons-of-yudeah/#findComment-2776595 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Argent Posted May 30, 2011 Author Share Posted May 30, 2011 In relation to Octy's post: I am a devout Catholic, have been all my life. I respect Judaism (not really sure how I spelt this wrong) as the forefather of our religion and, indeed a perfectly valid way of life. I have absolutely no intention of actually bringing the truth of either religion into it. Please bear in mind also that this is going to be a Christian THEMED Chapter. That is to say there well be no Jesus the Christ, no Moses or Abraham et al. If at any stage anyone is offended by this idea please let me know (preferably via PM as to not cause any issues on the board) and I will change or stop the idea immediately. So Octy, if I hadn't made pointed posts such as the Battle barge as the Vatican and a Jerusalem like homeworld, or noted at the start that it was to be themed after such a story would it still have clicked for you? Bearing in mind the idea would have then consisted of: A Chapter is formed, has oto fight for its homeworld. Does something silly and looses homeowlrd. Sacrifices much to be redeemed. Goes on crusade wit hthe idea that, only through sacrifice and servive can people be saved? If that is the case then suggestions on how to tone it down would be greatly appreciated. I'd like everyone to realise that these are notes and are no where near what the final idea will emerge like. My idea isn't to make Christians (Or Jews) in SPace but have a Chapter inspired by the story of both religions up to the point just after the sacking of Jerusalem by the Romans and the subsequent Exile of the Jewish people. So a pre State of Israel story. These aren't Christians (or Jews) in space. I want to make that abudently clear. Perhaps I should have made the point it is a Christian/Judaism INSPIRED Chapter, not themed. Now I have finished defending my idea, I'd love to hear some constructive feed back as I start to write this up into an article. EDIT: And hey, at least I got some replies on my article. :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230878-wip-notes-for-the-sons-of-yudeah/#findComment-2776602 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octavulg Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 I respect Judaism (not really sure how I spelt this wrong) Read the third line of your post, then? "Jewdaism" isn't it. Bearing in mind the idea would have then consisted of: A Chapter is formed, has oto fight for its homeworld. Does something silly and looses homeowlrd. Sacrifices much to be redeemed. Goes on crusade wit hthe idea that, only through sacrifice and servive can people be saved? If that is the case then suggestions on how to tone it down would be greatly appreciated. Depends. Were you going to call them the Sons of Judah? Other than that: I might. It depends on how it's executed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230878-wip-notes-for-the-sons-of-yudeah/#findComment-2776623 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Argent Posted May 31, 2011 Author Share Posted May 31, 2011 Yeah, what I meant wit hthe whole Jewdism thing is more "What was I thinking" then I didn't do it. And no, the Sons of Judah/Yudeah is actually a WIP name, kinda like a place holder name. I just got sick of calling them the "My New Loyalist" Chapter. Thank you for both your time and concern Octavulg, I have always respected your opinion on IA's and I would love any help you might be willing to offer (No matter how bowling ball like) as I try to finally develop a one day Librarium quality article. EDIT: Damnable typos... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230878-wip-notes-for-the-sons-of-yudeah/#findComment-2776632 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darrell Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 What aspects of Christianity and/or Judaism are you wishing to use? From the outline, it looks like the general theme is one of martyrdom/sacrifice and persecution. Those are worthy inspirations, but make sure you don't get too carried away; these are Astartes, after all, and shouldn't be pacifists. Also, like any real-world inspiration, I suggest making a little go a long way. Naming them "The Sons of Yudeah", having them recruit from the planet Jerusalem Primis while crusading about in the "Temple of Solomon" or "Vatican" is pushing too hard, for example. Death of Chapter Master to atone for the sins of the Chapter seems a bit heavy-handed, but may fit better depending on how it is handled. Other initial concerns would be how you justify your Chapter knowing about the Fallen, but no longer hunting them. I do like the idea that this has brought their relationship with the Dark Angels to a breaking point, however, and think that will be a nice tension. Were you thinking of something to the extent of the martyred Chapter Master cleansing the Chapter of all sins, including association with the Fallen? I imagine the Dark Angels' reply would be something to the extent of "Wow, you really think it's just that easy?", with the DA belittling the sacrifice while your Sons belittle the crime. Or, at least, belittle their Chapter's part in committing it. On the surface, they seem very similar to a modern retake on loyalist Word Bearers. I always thought it suitably funny that what caused the Word Bearers to fall from grace ten millennia ago would ensure their success and popularity now. A bit difficult to give more advice given the spartan nature of your outline, but nothing immediately jumps out with claxons other than the risk of abusing the theme. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230878-wip-notes-for-the-sons-of-yudeah/#findComment-2776849 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lysimachus Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 Death of Chapter Master as sacrifice for Chapters Sins Were you thinking of something to the extent of the martyred Chapter Master cleansing the Chapter of all sins, including association with the Fallen? I imagine the Dark Angels' reply would be something to the extent of "Wow, you really think it's just that easy?", with the DA belittling the sacrifice while your Sons belittle the crime. Or, at least, belittle their Chapter's part in committing it. So presumably (if this is how you're planning to go) you're viewing the DA as the Jewish types, and the new Chapter as the Christians who no longer feel the need to follow all the old traditions. The whole point of the Mosaic Law with all its daily, monthly, yearly sacrifices was to remind the people that they were sinful and needed redemption by means of a Messiah. Fits with the DA, who are all about the guilt. It is their focus, the primary thing that drives them in everything they do. Then you have the Christian, who accepts Jesus as being that Messiah, the one perfect sacrifice that made the Law no longer necessary. Perhaps the Chapter Master sacrifices himself in some way, destroying or capturing a whole group of Fallen, and the Chapter see that sacrifice as having given them redemption. What would make him special enough as a sacrifice to cover them all forever though? Maybe it's not just him, maybe it's a percentage of the whole Chapter that die, the 1st Co. or something? That would be a big sacrifice, and would avoid some of the potential risks of directly comparing your CM to Jesus Christ. The themes are certainly there, if used with subtlety and respect. Agreed that all the names need to be much, much less obvious though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230878-wip-notes-for-the-sons-of-yudeah/#findComment-2777045 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Sergeant Bohemond Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 Not hunting the fallen? Interesting I have to say. Could be AoA successors? They hunt the fallen but do it because they have to, its expected rather than because they believe in it. Carry over from the parent Chapter taken to its extreme due to circumstances that have occured that need to be fleshed out. I find the whole concept really really interetsing, cannot wait to see how this goes, especially with the Campaign being developed at the same time. I wonder if our Chapters friendship helped you get through the 1000 years penitent crusade... darrell: I somehow dont see these guys as pacisfists, I see them as 'nice' Marines, but dont mistake 'nice' for 'hippie'. they are STILL Astarets. Astartes are created for one purpose: to kill things. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230878-wip-notes-for-the-sons-of-yudeah/#findComment-2777050 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferrata Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 I've removed a couple of posts from this thread, lets keep it civil. I am not going to close this thread purely because it uses religion as a inspiration. However, I will be watching it closely and if anyone is offended by what is posted, then feel free to Report it to myself and I will come and sort things out. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230878-wip-notes-for-the-sons-of-yudeah/#findComment-2777364 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Argent Posted June 1, 2011 Author Share Posted June 1, 2011 Okay so thank you Feratta for helping civilise things a little here. I'm not sure exactly what happened as I was at work but that isn't relevant. I want people to be aware that this is NOT Christians in Space, this is a Chapter based off mostly the History and Dynamic of the Jewish/Christian faith. No more, no less. That out of the way I'm seeing some great ideas here. Loyalist Word Bearers was actually one of my ideas to begin with. I've always somewhat pittied the nutters and hav eoften wanted to remake them as Loyalists. And SCL has hit it on the head perfectly, as usual. That is the very reason I chose DA geneseed. I like the focus on sin from the Dark Angels now being a focus on Redemption by the Sons. The idea I'm forming at the moment is that there is a schism over hunting the Fallen. Perhaps the Chapter leaves some Imperial forces to die to hunt some of the Fallen and end up being retaliated against by Imperial forces. Not sure really... gotta think more on that one. And as to the references of obvious names I would like to point out htat the only name mentioned so far is Yudeah, and that is in the WIP title for the Chapter. Any other name was mentioned as a note to help people get what I am suggesting. Hopefully this article will see some flesh and maybe convince people of the intent to not make Christians in space. Thanks again for all the comments guys and please keep them coming. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230878-wip-notes-for-the-sons-of-yudeah/#findComment-2778524 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reyner Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 The idea I'm forming at the moment is that there is a schism over hunting the Fallen. Perhaps the Chapter leaves some Imperial forces to die to hunt some of the Fallen and end up being retaliated against by Imperial forces. Not sure really... gotta think more on that one. That's a good idea, surely some of them would feel guilty leaving in the middle of a battle to chase one traitor? I know next to nothing about religion so I won't be able to help much there but I am interested in seeing where this goes. Will they worship the Emperor as the supreme being? (As in perfection not a god). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230878-wip-notes-for-the-sons-of-yudeah/#findComment-2778729 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roma Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 My advice, delete this thread the moment you write up your chapter, and if anyone says anything say they are just imagining things and its not your problem. So long as you dont say "this chapter is based on judaism" you will be ok. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230878-wip-notes-for-the-sons-of-yudeah/#findComment-2778732 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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