i was tabled turn 3 by GK

[MomentoMori]

This past weekend I was in a 2k tournament running almost standard 2k plague marine list:

 

2x daemon prince with MoN, wings, warptime.

 

4x 7man strong PMs with fistychamp rhinos d.possession Plasma/meltas.

 

20x lessor daemons

 

2x vindicator

 

3x obliterators

 

Gray knights was running:

 

1x Inquisitor with some super beam gets stronger farther it shoots

Large retinues with lots of fire power

 

Vindicate assassin

 

One large teleporter squad

 

One large close combat gray Knight unit in power armor.

 

4-5 6x power armor squads with str6 Razorbacks

 

2x rifleman dreads

 

Been playing my deathguard in many tournaments over last 3-4 years. This was the first time I got monkey stomped being tabled turn 3. I did make make a ton of tactical errors to him mainly misjudging his ability to pop all tanks by turn two killing oblits that were in cover turn one. And for going toward to him. I figured I could just move toward pop a few razorbacks tag team a squad at a time move to next. I was completely shut down.

 

Only good thing I had going was my 20 man lessor daemons came in turn 2 and wiped his dedicated close combat unit engaged with like a pfist champ and an icon holder plague marine.

 

I did go on to win my next two battles one against foot nids and a BA list with 64+ marines all combat squadded fnp and all had cover. BA list was very scary looking lots of lazcannons missles and a 64x marines with furious charge counter assault.

 

Gray Knight player went undefeated and most overall victory points.

[Spear of Achilles]

plague marines are useless vs grey knights high str force weapons...they fare no better than standard chaos marines and with a lower init. Really, it's tough to build a list that will mash other armies and still build one that will crunch grey knights, who shoot as good as they melee. Havocs and chosen loaded with plasma guns will work, but then these will suffer vs horde armies, etc. The only army I'd enjoy using against them would be green tide orks, who don't give a fig if you have a force weapon. Defilers with AP 3 might be better than vindicators, since GK are in general low model counts.

[Brother Nihm]

4th ed. Codex, meet 5th ed. top-tuned Codex.

 

It is a shame but I see very little that you could do to his list with yours. He is faster than you, has better midfield control, better anti-tank and can still pack a punch in melee - his only real weakness (and not a great one at that).

[1Drop]

Yeah, the only way I can see us winning or even coming close with a nurgle army is havocs with tons of plasma cannons. I also hear that summoned daemons are pretty good against them so I'd be taking more plague bearers against GK.

 

I really hope they do something to even it out cos it just isn't fair the advantage they have against the chaos dex.

[Spear of Achilles]

Heh. Possessed might do ok with kharne. Really, we need Invulns to go toe to toe with them, probably why summoned daemons would be fair, if not great vs them. Might be a good time tod rag out fabius bile's enhanced warriors, or high init noise marines and tzeentch termies for 4+i.

[1Drop]

Heh. Possessed might do ok with kharne. Really, we need Invulns to go toe to toe with them, probably why summoned daemons would be fair, if not great vs them. Might be a good time tod rag out fabius bile's enhanced warriors, or high init noise marines and tzeentch termies for 4+i.

 

This is a nurgle forum though, so no kharne or bile or noise marines or anything, just vessels of rot and decay! If I had a chaos undivided list or even a khornes list maybe GK wouldn't be as much of a problem but we can't escape the fact we have a 4th ed dex and we are trying to beat high tuned, top end 5th ed. Everyone has problems with GK. We, just can't beat them.

[Spear of Achilles]

Maybe we need use of nurgle machines and tanks more than joe plague marines. Might be better off using mark of nurgle standard marines than pay so much for pm that are of less value...

[jerryrich]

Pie plates. my standard 1500 point all comers/ shooty PM army has 8 pie plates. 2 from dreads (PCs or MLs depending on how i feel), 2 from PMs w/ plasma, 2 from defilers, 2 from Oblits. Could be more i dont have any more oblits.

 

I played against a GK list recently (i didnt win but i think thats more to do w/ tactics and being a horible judge of range) and i had 8 pie plate shots a turn. they made him throw a good number of saves (now if i had been smart enough to concentrate fire i would have been better), too bad he had hot dice and saved most of the time! i also really missed my FNP rolls but o well, live and learn. GK is a tuff army to play but we minions of nurgle are a very adaptable army. probably would have been better for me to deploy as forward as possible in my deployment zone then back track to keep out of his range while shooting him.

[Brother Nihm]

I'm fairly certain that you don't want to go toe to toe with his list mid-range, pieplates or not. :mellow:

[Prot]

Personally I'm finding the Grey Knights LOVE match ups with 'elite' style armies, just like this Death Guard game.

 

The less model count, with the more 'specialized', expensive units you have, the more I think it play into their hands. They can be defeated by pure saturation... saturation of anything.... cheap long range fire power (doesn't matter the AP value, just have lots of it), and even cheap saturation of man power, be it marines, or horde.

 

I do think Plasma does work. I've had some plasma cannon set ups that can have GK Termie squads shaking.... BUT to be well rounded, there are some armies that this set up simply fails at (horde style orks, or even Nids)

[minigun762]

Without tailoring too much, swapping the Oblits/Vindicators for Defilers would help. You're immune to the force weapons and basically immune to the S6 razorbacks. Vindicare and Rifleman are a threat but they're a threat to the Oblits/Vindicators as well.

[MomentoMori]

Well now that GK's FAQ is out. How would you build a list tailored to fight GKs?

 

I was thinking of running 3-4 landraiders full of termies and plague marines and lessor daemons but still think this would have a hard time. Also looking at a squad of plasma chosen.

[Azekai]

I was thinking of running 3-4 landraiders full of termies and plague marines and lessor daemons but still think this would have a hard time.

 

Not to simply parrot conventional wisdom, but our termies and LRs are both sub-par for their points costs. Our termies lack relentless, and the expensive MoN is little help against most anti-terminator guns. Our LRs do not have power of the machine spirit, and if you possess 'em, not only do they get less accurate but the GKs also get to re-roll to hit the (lit.) damned things.

 

Also looking at a squad of plasma chosen

 

And just pray to the Ruinous Powers that they don't bring a plasma syphon.

 

Not trying to be mean spirited or anything, it's just . . . I don't really see what can be done about a competantly built GK force. :P Our codex is out of date and they are specifically armed with anti-chaos crapola.

[Master of fact]

Yeah we are pretty much screwed. Defilers have demonic posession so count as demons now. I was working on a berseker list but even with the charge they go second againts those +2I weapons.

 

On the other hand our CODEX must be coming soon. Lets face it it is a big cash cow GW wont resist for much longer.

 

As long as it is done right......

[Darkmagi]

I'm a GK player and a buddy of mine is a hardcore chaos player. One thing he uses that I have had a hard time against is a set of 3 squads of 3x obliterators. One of the biggest failings of the GK is they have a crappy long range game, the oblits can take out those pesky psy-rifle man dreads as well as having plasma cannons for the terminator spam guys... vindicators and defilers are to easy to de-fang as only one weapon destroyed and the vehicle is basically useless, besides 9 lascannons or plasma cannons will do a great deal more damage then a 3 pie plates that are easy to disrupt.

[MomentoMori]

Well this is what I learned from research and fighting grey knights. They have 3 scary builds and enough tech in the codex for nasty surpises.

 

1. DCA spam running in either LRs or ravens and either teleporting dreadknights or psy-rifle dreads.(IMO scaryiest build)

2. Draigo wing. (Weakest build)

3. Shooty. Min/Max Razorback spam with heavy bolters and psy-bolts(str6 rending) filled with double psy-cannon squads. Back by psy-rifle dreads and 1-2 in ur face units.(IMO strongest build)

 

All 3 may or may not have vidicaire assassin.

 

List 1 and 2 has potential to have 3 dreadknights assaulting turn 1 with draigo scout moves.

 

So now my biggest single fear are 3 in you face monsterous creatures beaten my face in at the start of the game.

 

Its does seem all the lists can be tailored against individually.

 

My goal was to build a list that won't be a one sided match against all three at 2500 points for ard boys.

[MomentoMori]

This is the list ill be play testing.

 

 

225 Typhus

200 Terminator- MoN, 3x pairs L.claws, pfist

226 pm- pfist, icon, 2melta

226 pm- pfist, icon, 2melta

221 pm- pfist, icon, melta, flamer

260 Less.Ds (zombies) x20

260 Less.Ds (zombies) x20

220 land raider

220 land raider

220 land raider

220 land raider

 

This list will be more of a counter assault list.

 

I've found that PM mainly fail against GK after being shot at than assaulted. So u must shoot first than assault because most strike squads will only be Max 6 strong which means only 3powerweapons per squad. Surprisenly a 7man PM squad will take 2-3 full turns to die in combat and that's only if their able to get hammer hand off.

 

 

GKs DO have trouble popping multiple landraiders.

 

If u charge any GK unit with 20 lesser daemons they're gonna feel it and if not it will tie them up enough until re-enforcements can finish them off.

 

Aqainst DCA spam the only anti AV14 is 3 multi-meltas on the 3 ravens or Landraiders and either the dreads or dreadknights. 4 landraiders can hold up against this long enough for the list to out swarm the list literally 4 to 1. Just focus fire on the dreads and let the DCA come to u.

 

 

 

Draigo-wing has a solid chance at popping the landraiders but only if they assault. Again shoot until assassin is dead and than at dreads. Everything else in the list is super elite and cost almost the entire points of the army in just a handful of boots on ground. Tie up and mob them in hand to hand.

 

Against shooty list well pray they don't get to lucky with rending shots. Either pop their Razorbacks to provide u cover from their dreads and take a lost land raider a turn from assassin. Or instead kill assassin and let strike squads get close to u while dreads pound on u. Most of this will be dependant on GK set up. For some reason shooty GK still come at u from up the middle 6 inches at a time until they can reach u via assault. This will still be your hardest match up on just the amount of sheer fire power alone. Any popped landraiders will spell instant doom on its contents. But the shooty list real strength is its ability to pop light transports than shoot any thing inside with nothing weaker than str 5 bolters. Luckily there isn't any light transports in this list which means assassin has 50% chance of popping one LR a turn and the dreads have less chance popping a LR than longfangs and there isn't any dreadknights in the list. Though the 2 psy-cannons in each squad gives them another chance they can't do it on turn one.

 

Army wide toughness 5 does help against GK. Hammerhand and str5 bolter fire still blows but to wound on 4 or 5 is better than on 3s.

And this army makes wound allocation a nightmare to elite armies.

 

9 obliterators=9 lascannons @ up too 3 targets a turn

4 landraiders=8 rerollable lascannons @ up too 4 targets a turn thought I'd throw that out there.

 

I still think at 2500 points against GK it will be a tough battle but at least it wont be one sided.

 

I firmly believe GK is gonna run all over ardboys and a lot of marine players will either try to outshoot them or follow raider rush at them. Though they may have PoTMS they can't field 40 lesser daemons bringing in 120 attacks on the charge. These 120 attacks are also monster against orks, d eldar, nidz and ANY deathstar builds.

 

I hope this list attempts to nullify most of GK strength against csm while being entirely ironic having our "weakest unit" being best against them because we almost always get the charge.

[Something Wycked]

List 1 and 2 has potential to have 3 dreadknights assaulting turn 1 with draigo scout moves.

 

So now my biggest single fear are 3 in you face monsterous creatures beaten my face in at the start of the game.

That got FAQ'ed; Shunts are not allowed during the Scout move. The first turn that GK can assault on is 2, assuming flat out Stormravens or Shunts from DK's and Interceptors.

 

Aqainst DCA spam the only anti AV14 is 3 multi-meltas on the 3 ravens or Landraiders and either the dreads or dreadknights. 4 landraiders can hold up against this long enough for the list to out swarm the list literally 4 to 1. Just focus fire on the dreads and let the DCA come to u.

How do you outnumber DCA spam 4 to 1? They cost the same as regular Chaos Marines. You also really don't want the DCA to come to you; a smart player will pair their DCA with a Librarian to make them Strength 6 and 2d6 armor penetration. Even Land Raiders will fall to that.

[MomentoMori]

LOL I may have over guesstimated on the 4 to 1

 

Did not realize that Libby can buff like that.

 

Hurrah for FAQ.

[Something Wycked]

Yessir, Libby can use Hammerhand on the squad for +1 Strength, and then Might of Titan for +1 Strength and +1d6 penetration.

 

Check out this list for comparison: Ridiculous Unfluffy Henchmen Spam.

 

There's still about 160 points left in that list to make it 2500- couldn't be bothered to update the list's points, most likely writing that list up is as far as the army will go.

 

DCA's are the premier assault unit in the game. If your opponent is bringing DCA's, you need to keep them at arm's length and shoot them down; they die very easily to shooting. In assault, however, anything short of Howling Banshees will just die. (Banshees going first will wreck the DCA's faces.) Even a 400 point Space Marine Hammernator squad will go down to a 180 point DCA unit.

 

I don't think you'll see very many DCA armies, however. From what I've seen, the vast majority of GK armies will be MSU Psyback spam with Psyflemen or Draigowing.

[FLBERZERKER]

I just use Abaddon. I don't care anymore after seeing them come out with that overpowered codex and then follow it up with that FAQ. Every chaos player everywhere should just start using Abaddon in every game. This is total B.S !

[nurglez]

DK's with teleporters can still get a turn 1 assault, as they move 12, so with scout, move 12 forward, then an assault range of 18 inches (move 12 assault 6).

 

I use draigo wing, and I have no idea how I would fight them with my deathguard army, guess I need a friend to take control of my draigo wing and to fight them...

[Something Wycked]

That requires a 48" table with 12" deployment zones and an unwary opponent deploying off the back line; if the opponent deploys along the back line, the 12" deployment + 12" scout + 18" assault = 42" doesn't quite reach.

 

Still pretty scary to think that they can be so in your face right at the beginning of the game.

 

To protect troops, they need to be in transports; to protect vehicles, they need a bubble wrap. In any case, make that DK stand in front of your army and shoot it with plasma/melta or equivalents; last resort is assaulting it with a fist.

[FMPT]

Played against GK'S yesterday, ya, didn't go so well for me. The only thing that had any success against them was my Chaos Lord, he took out 6 GK stirkers and put 2 W's on the Inquisitor in a single turn of CC (Thank you Daemon Weapon), but I was never able to get that last W from the Inquisitor and he ended up killing my Lord and the rest of my Chosen unit. I had an EPIC FAIL on my 2x3 Oblits, they were only able to wreck 1 Rhino :) Oblits were then shot at by Termies and dealt 3 W's and yes, I rolled all 1's, then they were assaulted and died. I charged a unit of 10 PM's into the strike squad that was in CC with my Chosen and Lord but they had Rad Grenades, I failed my I save and 4 of my PM attacked my own unit. In short i'll need to revise my list and give it another go against GK's.

 

I refuse to believe that I won't be able to find a nurgle list that can beat the GK's

[Something Wycked]

FMPT, that was just a day of bad dice rolls, I don't think it had anything to do with your list. Oblits failing to kill vehicles AND failing armor saves, making a poor roll with your Plaguers.

 

I'd try out another brick of dice before changing up your list! :)