Can Dreadknights be competitive?

[Cmdr Shepard]

Greetings fellow Battle Brothers,

 

I'd like to play my dreadknights more frequently and I wonder if they can be used for "competitive play".

Is there a tactic/strategy to make DK an efficient unit in Grey Knights armies?

 

I played a heavy psycannon/heavy incinerator DK in three matches and the performance was more than good. He died only in a match, against an illegal chaos space marine list with 9 obliterators and a land raider (he didn't field terminators, thus the list had 4 heavy supports) shoting him. Since everything shot at the Dk my other units wiped out the enemies models sitting on objectives. PT would have helped me to move from cover to cover with more effectiveness.

 

However in all three matches my opponents were not highly skilled players so I wonder if you found a way to play DK in a "competitive game enviroment".

 

Thank You for your assistance.

[Gentlemanloser]

Are GK Terminators Competitive? Do they *require* a LR?

 

If not, then why wouldn't the NDK be?

 

It's cheaper than 4 Terminators, with a higher S and T to boot.

 

If the arguement is it takes up Heavy Slots, and you need those for Dreads, you could always use Elite slot Ven Dreads alongside NDKs.

 

As it stands, the Ranged Weaon options aren't great, the Heavy Psycannon being a very expensive /meh. If you don't want to run him pure Melee, then the Heavy Incinverator is probably the best choice.

[uberschveinen]

It's not as good as other options. For the same price you can get a Venerable Dreadnought, which, at the cost of slightly lower firepower and combat hurt, is almost unkillable instead of irksomely frail. The only Monstrous Creatures that can get away with just having T6 have special abilities to stop them being shot at constantly, or are force multipliers for other choices. It's just not resilient to concentrated fire in the way that it needs to be at that points cost. You can get better firepower out of a Purgation squad, too, if you just want to shoot. The one thing that can make it less than a slightly worse choice is the Teleporter, which lets it romp all over the field, and takes away the huge vulnerability of being obvious and extremely slow. The problem is that that option is so hugely expensive that you have to do some incredible work with it to make it worthwhile, and that will rarely be plausible.

 

It's not bad, by any means. It's just that it's not the bets choice beyond extremely narrow circumstances.

[Gentlemanloser]

Melta's kill even Ven Dreads. ;)

 

The NDK at least gets a 5+ save, if not the ability to take 3 of them! :P

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Is there a tactic/strategy to make DK an efficient unit in Grey Knights armies?

 

Sure, it's a simple enough process;

 

Step 1: Attach greatsword

Step 2: Equip personal teleporter

Step 3: Deploy

Step 4: ????

Step 5: Your opponent is now going insane as you 'one-man army' his army

[uberschveinen]

Melta's kill even Ven Dreads. :lol:

 

The NDK at least gets a 5+ save, if not the ability to take 3 of them! ;)

 

That's not how Venerables work. The reason that normal Venerables are offensively tough is that you have a 4/6 chance of doing some damage, with a reroll, no matter how high your penetration. Lucky back-Bolter or Turbo-Penetrator rolling super-sixes, either way it's a 5/9 chance of doing nothing, which is on top of the chances of failed penetration and missing outright. Actually killing it is even harder, with a 1/9 chance of a kill on a Penetrating Hit. Grey Knight Venerables are particularly obnoxious, because they can all-but ignore Stunned and Shaken results, meanign that you can't even Stunlock them. Even against Melta weaponry, they have about an 11/36 chance of just ignoring a Penetrating Hit outright, which is analogous to a 5+ Invulnerable, save that the odds of penetrating a Venerable are almost always worse that the odds of wounding the Dreadknight, even for Melta weapons in 2d6 range, with the only exception being Vindicaire Assassins. And, more usefully, they are all-but invincible to small-arms fire Just ask Tyranid players how well T6 holds up to the classic bucket-o-dice, especially when you have so few other targets for their consideration. Your enemy has to dedicate specific anti-vehicle weaponry to them to ever take them out, and usually a hell of a lot of them. They are fantastic fire sponges.

 

The Venerable is tougher in nigh-on any situation you will ever encounter in the game. It boasts comparable ranged firepower at a generally-lesser price. It is only slightly worse in close combat damage-wise, and in combat becomes close to factually indestructible. The only edge that the Dreadknight has, save for extremely unlikely scenarios purpose-constructed to help the Knight, is in that it can have the Personal Teleporter. The Venerable just can't compare to that. It is also alarmingly expensive, and in any but the biggest games, a monstrous overinvestment. In the biggest games, though, sure, why not. Any other time, I'll take a Venerable.

[Brother Dylan]

Except vendreads will fail to anything respectable in cc, especially other monstrous creatures. Dreadknights are for when you want to take the fight to the enemy, they are also much more resilient to small arms fire than most other mcs, T6 with a 2+ means you have very little to fear from mass bolters or mass lasguns.

[Cmdr Shepard]

Melta's kill even Ven Dreads. :lol:

 

The NDK at least gets a 5+ save, if not the ability to take 3 of them! :thanks:

 

That's not how Venerables work. The reason that normal Venerables are offensively tough is that you have a 4/6 chance of doing some damage, with a reroll, no matter how high your penetration. Lucky back-Bolter or Turbo-Penetrator rolling super-sixes, either way it's a 5/9 chance of doing nothing, which is on top of the chances of failed penetration and missing outright. Actually killing it is even harder, with a 1/9 chance of a kill on a Penetrating Hit. Grey Knight Venerables are particularly obnoxious, because they can all-but ignore Stunned and Shaken results, meanign that you can't even Stunlock them. Even against Melta weaponry, they have about an 11/36 chance of just ignoring a Penetrating Hit outright, which is analogous to a 5+ Invulnerable, save that the odds of penetrating a Venerable are almost always worse that the odds of wounding the Dreadknight, even for Melta weapons in 2d6 range, with the only exception being Vindicaire Assassins. And, more usefully, they are all-but invincible to small-arms fire Just ask Tyranid players how well T6 holds up to the classic bucket-o-dice, especially when you have so few other targets for their consideration. Your enemy has to dedicate specific anti-vehicle weaponry to them to ever take them out, and usually a hell of a lot of them. They are fantastic fire sponges.

 

The Venerable is tougher in nigh-on any situation you will ever encounter in the game. It boasts comparable ranged firepower at a generally-lesser price. It is only slightly worse in close combat damage-wise, and in combat becomes close to factually indestructible. The only edge that the Dreadknight has, save for extremely unlikely scenarios purpose-constructed to help the Knight, is in that it can have the Personal Teleporter. The Venerable just can't compare to that. It is also alarmingly expensive, and in any but the biggest games, a monstrous overinvestment. In the biggest games, though, sure, why not. Any other time, I'll take a Venerable.

 

You have perfectly described Venerable strenghts but they have weakness too.

Consider that you will use venerable rule to reroll only 5-6. Usually a player don't want to risk a worse roll, thus de facto you won't have any kind of protection againt 3 and 4 rolls on damage table unless you are willing to risk a worse effect.

A dread without one of his weapons, or even an immibilized one, loses a significant part of his combat effectiveness.

Beside a MC creature can be more resilent to several weapons.

A missle laucher fore example glances a dread on 4 and penetrates it on 5+. A DK suffers a wound on 2+ but he has a 2+armour save and in order to deprive it from its combat effectiveness you must remove 4 wounds since you cannot destroy his weapons.

 

I'm a huge fan of dread, every space marine army I collect features more dread than I usually field, so I'm aware of their power. You forgot to mention a clear advantage of dreads over DK: they can find cover easier. I'm not saying DK is better, if I had such opinion I wouldn't have posted this topic ;)

I think Dreads and DK field two different role on the battlefield. DK are essentially an anti-greater daemons asset. I have to see if they can fit other roles.

 

Is there a tactic/strategy to make DK an efficient unit in Grey Knights armies?

 

Sure, it's a simple enough process;

 

Step 1: Attach greatsword

Step 2: Equip personal teleporter

Step 3: Deploy

Step 4: ????

Step 5: Your opponent is now going insane as you 'one-man army' his army

Many players prefer two Nemesis doomfists because they grant an addition attack and strike at S10. I know there is debate on the issue but what's the reason to make them act like DCCW if they don't follow DCCW's rules. If they wanted to give them a common nemesis weapon without a +1 bonus to save in CC they would have created a weapon intended to DK use like they did with greatsword.

Are you sure a DK can really "one-man army his army"?

 

Are GK Terminators Competitive? Do they *require* a LR?

 

If not, then why wouldn't the NDK be?

 

It's cheaper than 4 Terminators, with a higher S and T to boot.

 

If the arguement is it takes up Heavy Slots, and you need those for Dreads, you could always use Elite slot Ven Dreads alongside NDKs.

 

As it stands, the Ranged Weaon options aren't great, the Heavy Psycannon being a very expensive /meh. If you don't want to run him pure Melee, then the Heavy Incinverator is probably the best choice.

Every time I attempt to test standard GK terminators I cannot find a good reason to field them, apart from the relentless psycannons. If I want to play TDA GK at all cost I still find Paladins a better chioce than standard Terminators, at least they don't die so easily under "small arms' fire".

 

Except vendreads will fail to anything respectable in cc, especially other monstrous creatures. Dreadknights are for when you want to take the fight to the enemy, they are also much more resilient to small arms fire than most other mcs, T6 with a 2+ means you have very little to fear from mass bolters or mass lasguns.

Beside you don't have to worry about "rear armour".

[Inquisitor Fox]

Keep in mind going strictly as RAW, the Dreadknight gets either an extra attack for 2 CCW but strikes at S6, or strikes at S10 with a thunderhammer (NOT init 1), or rerolls all to hits/to wounds/armor pens. Technically we can't apply the strength mod for the DCCW because the main book specifies "Walker" in it's rule. In a truely "competative" in terms of ocmpetitions, not skill level, you're choosing from these three options.

 

I think the benefit to a Dreadknight is it is both shooting and melee effective, and has different shooting roles than a Dreadnought. A Dreadnought is more traditional firepower (and usually a combination of melee or anti-tank I've noticed) where the Dreadknight seems more geared to wipe out their infantry or MC's. It also won't die to a single shot by Anything unless that thing is capable of wounding it multiple times with weaponry that denies it's armor save. A Dreadnought is a vehicle and thus can die to a single trooper with a meltagun should the dice will it :thanks: Same trooper will probably shave a wound off the Dreadknight, then get curb stomped.

[Cmdr Shepard]

Keep in mind going strictly as RAW, the Dreadknight gets either an extra attack for 2 CCW but strikes at S6, or strikes at S10 with a thunderhammer (NOT init 1), or rerolls all to hits/to wounds/armor pens. Technically we can't apply the strength mod for the DCCW because the main book specifies "Walker" in it's rule. In a truely "competative" in terms of ocmpetitions, not skill level, you're choosing from these three options.

A FAQ is obviously needed. Personally I don't see the logic to give a weapon that follows DCCW rule to a model if it cannot follow the very rule. When rulebook was published walkers were the only units to feature DCCW, GK codex is a most recent collection of rules and a Codex should supersedes rulebook concerning how single special rules works because it refelcts how the particular equipment or ability functions within a given species/organization. The rulebook says that, I don't remember the page but I check it.

 

I never played a DK in tournament but one of the players at my local store did and the tournament "judges" told him to consider DK with doomfists a S10 model. That was only a "local" interpretation, though.

I read a topic on B&C about a member who asked it to a GW customer service and they said DK doubles his strenght.

However we need a FAQ ASAP.

 

I think the benefit to a Dreadknight is it is both shooting and melee effective, and has different shooting roles than a Dreadnought. A Dreadnought is more traditional firepower (and usually a combination of melee or anti-tank I've noticed) where the Dreadknight seems more geared to wipe out their infantry or MC's. It also won't die to a single shot by Anything unless that thing is capable of wounding it multiple times with weaponry that denies it's armor save. A Dreadnought is a vehicle and thus can die to a single trooper with a meltagun should the dice will it :( Same trooper will probably shave a wound off the Dreadknight, then get curb stomped.

That was my first opinion about DK. I noticed DK is an "infantry killer", it needs to be in CC in order to pose a threat to vehicles, unless you are using a heavy psycannon and are lucky with scatter dice :D

[Brother Dylan]

With the teleporter being in cc and catching vehicles is not a problem, mc's are very reliable on cracking tanks so long as you can hit it.

[Chengar Qordath]

With the teleporter being in cc and catching vehicles is not a problem, mc's are very reliable on cracking tanks so long as you can hit it.

That is one of the areas where the sword really shines; getting to re-roll your to-hit rolls gives you a much better chance of landing hits on vehicles that went cruising speed/flat out.

[Cmdr Shepard]

With the teleporter being in cc and catching vehicles is not a problem, mc's are very reliable on cracking tanks so long as you can hit it.

That is one of the areas where the sword really shines; getting to re-roll your to-hit rolls gives you a much better chance of landing hits on vehicles that went cruising speed/flat out.

In my opinion that's why the greatsword cost so much. Even against infantry models is not unusual to roll at least a couple of 1/2, beside there are many model with a WS of 5 or superios thus rerolling to hit ,and to wound, is very interesting: it gives you a change to counter "unwelcomed" dice rolls.

[Gentlemanloser]

Every time I attempt to test standard GK terminators I cannot find a good reason to field them, apart from the relentless psycannons. If I want to play TDA GK at all cost I still find Paladins a better chioce than standard Terminators, at least they don't die so easily under "small arms' fire".

 

Don't get me wrong, I totally agree. ;)

 

But then T6 Termies are a little different! :)

[Something Wycked]

Almost anything in any codex can be competitive- what it will come down to is how they're used. Uberschveinen made a great argument for Venerable Dreadnoughts, but that occupies a different slot than the NDK- one that is crowded with Purifier and Assassin choices, much like the Heavy Support is crowded with Land Raiders, NDKs, Dreadnoughts, Purgations...

 

Its been said on this forum that the best way to run a NDK is to... run it. Across the board, naked. Like a high-toughness 4-man Terminator squad just hoofing it across the board. 6" in the Movement phase, d6" in the Shooting phase until you can charge. I can see how this could work in some army lists.

 

From my perspective, the best way to run a NDK is with a PT. Other than the ease of getting line of sight to the NDK to shoot it, the weakness of the NDK is its mobility. Give it mobility, and it can catch anything in the game and very likely tear it to pieces.

[nurglez]

I use a dreadknight along side my 1500 draigo wing, 1 with a PT, heavy incinerator and great sword, it sets me back 260 points, and sometimes it is well worth it.

 

I had it out flanking in my first game, it came along, shunted and took out 16 hormagaunts, as he wasn't expecting it, it then diverted a hive tyrant and took out his last scoring unit letting me win the game.

 

And other times its been meh, although if it absorbs the str 8 shots over my paladins, it pays for itself. I generally try and use it to distract my opponents. having something that can move that fast can be worrying.

 

For 2000 points I'm aiming on adding a second, but only with a heavy incinerator, as thats all the points I have left for after my other choices. I love dread's but would rather keep my draigo wing as pure terminator and as low model count as possible :unsure:

[Red Lost Soldier]

The only Monstrous Creatures that can get away with just having T6 have special abilities to stop them being shot at constantly, or are force multipliers for other choices. It's just not resilient to concentrated fire in the way that it needs to be at that points cost.

 

I'm not sure what special abilities any MC has that stops them being shot at constantly. Only thing I can think of is Veil of Tears. Other ways to not get shot include standard rules like night fire or standard tactics like target saturation. Could you elaborate on this please?

 

I have limited experience with them, but I find them best with no upgrades to fit my play style. I use them as bullet magnets and counter assault for my strike squads, who are usually being targeted by enemy assaulters while advancing to mid field.

 

As to the comparison between dreadnoughts, different strengths/weaknesses. Things like Missile Launchers, Melta guns, Dark Lances, Hive Guard etc. are usually found in abundance in enemy lists to counter armour and every one has a chance to nail dreadnoughts with one shot. All these weapons require 4 successful wounds to down a dreadknight. On the other side the dreadnought is immune to S5 and lower (and S6 is basically a waste against them also), until you get to rear armour. Dreadnoughts get a great selection of ranged weaponry, dreadknights not so much. Dreadknights have an extra attack, or can re roll all combat rolls, dreadnoughts can tie up some infantry without fear (though how many squads don't have fists/claws/hammers in them or nearby these days?).

 

They may have similar roles, but different philosophies.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I plan to drop my LRC from my Draigowing when Dreamforge releases the smaller version. I'm planning to run him with a teleporter, heavy incinerator and a gatling psilencer. If nothing else he can make quite a mess on the initial volley ripping into an enemy unit.

 

G <_<

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Many players prefer two Nemesis doomfists because they grant an addition attack and strike at S10. I know there is debate on the issue but what's the reason to make them act like DCCW if they don't follow DCCW's rules. If they wanted to give them a common nemesis weapon without a +1 bonus to save in CC they would have created a weapon intended to DK use like they did with greatsword.

Are you sure a DK can really "one-man army his army"?

 

Yeah that sounds good on paper, but when you roll with greatsword, bad close-combat results almost never happen;

- Oh I missed...no I didn't

- I failed to damage the tank...oh wait I did

- Oh I didn't wound you...oh wait I did

 

And yes, to your second question. My Dreadknight consistently eats 3-4 squads/tanks before dying, and in some games I've had him still alive (although usually down to 1 wound) by the end of the game. The speed on the teleporter (even without using the shunt) is just flat-out insane, and typical anti-monster strategies don't work (missile launchers and autocannons make him laugh, as do attacks in close-combat, and powerfists are more annoying than good at killing him). Srsly, give him a go with teleporter+greatsword.

 

I'm not so keen on Venerable Dreads, I usually have my Elite full with Paladins and Purifiers (and sometimes Vindicare), and the PsyDreads in Heavy Support provide enough armour saturation/fire support for my needs.

[Fenric]

Actually my first tiem I played GK my Dreadknight went heavy psycannon and Gatling Psilenser and no teleporter. It actually soaked alot of fire power and shot down alot of eldar troops. I know both those weapons are not the best but combined the have a huge killing potential vs light infantry(and i'd sya it's not crap vs termies either due to ammount+rending) within 24".

Now I got for shunt dread with fire and sword but on 2k points I might add ina shooty one.

[Mordrak]

I believe that the dk can be competitive so long as you kit it out right and use it for its intended role.

In fact I've just put a post up about it on the Grey Knights of Titan blog...feel free to give it a look and let me know your opinions

[Daedalus Templarius]

I took 2 in my last big game, and they were a huge headache for the other team to try and handle. One got insta-deathed by wraithguard... but the other did amazingly well, roasting several squads with ridiculous bank shots with his incinerator, besting a hive tyrant in cc, and then contesting an objective on the other side of the field.

 

I didn't even get a chance to shunt, but I actually wanted to keep them alive for a while this time, heh. I'll be sticking with 2 for a while, and 1 psyrifle vendread, in my draigowing.

[Cmdr Shepard]

Every time I attempt to test standard GK terminators I cannot find a good reason to field them, apart from the relentless psycannons. If I want to play TDA GK at all cost I still find Paladins a better chioce than standard Terminators, at least they don't die so easily under "small arms' fire".

 

Don't get me wrong, I totally agree. ;)

 

But then T6 Termies are a little different! :D

I strongly agree. DK is better than the equivalent points in standard terminators.

 

 

Almost anything in any codex can be competitive- what it will come down to is how they're used. Uberschveinen made a great argument for Venerable Dreadnoughts, but that occupies a different slot than the NDK- one that is crowded with Purifier and Assassin choices, much like the Heavy Support is crowded with Land Raiders, NDKs, Dreadnoughts, Purgations...

 

Its been said on this forum that the best way to run a NDK is to... run it. Across the board, naked. Like a high-toughness 4-man Terminator squad just hoofing it across the board. 6" in the Movement phase, d6" in the Shooting phase until you can charge. I can see how this could work in some army lists.

 

From my perspective, the best way to run a NDK is with a PT. Other than the ease of getting line of sight to the NDK to shoot it, the weakness of the NDK is its mobility. Give it mobility, and it can catch anything in the game and very likely tear it to pieces.

It is a interesting tactic. PT seems mandatory but I always gave DK at least one weapon. Are you sure the "naked" DK won't lack of "tactical potential"? DK's weapons seem to be a valid way to reduce enemy ranks before charging them. Just my curiosity.

 

For 2000 points I'm aiming on adding a second, but only with a heavy incinerator, as thats all the points I have left for after my other choices. I love dread's but would rather keep my draigo wing as pure terminator and as low model count as possible :)

DK pilot wears Terminator Armour . You army will be still a pure terminator one ;)

 

Many players prefer two Nemesis doomfists because they grant an addition attack and strike at S10. I know there is debate on the issue but what's the reason to make them act like DCCW if they don't follow DCCW's rules. If they wanted to give them a common nemesis weapon without a +1 bonus to save in CC they would have created a weapon intended to DK use like they did with greatsword.

Are you sure a DK can really "one-man army his army"?

 

Yeah that sounds good on paper, but when you roll with greatsword, bad close-combat results almost never happen;

- Oh I missed...no I didn't

- I failed to damage the tank...oh wait I did

- Oh I didn't wound you...oh wait I did

 

And yes, to your second question. My Dreadknight consistently eats 3-4 squads/tanks before dying, and in some games I've had him still alive (although usually down to 1 wound) by the end of the game. The speed on the teleporter (even without using the shunt) is just flat-out insane, and typical anti-monster strategies don't work (missile launchers and autocannons make him laugh, as do attacks in close-combat, and powerfists are more annoying than good at killing him). Srsly, give him a go with teleporter+greatsword.

 

I'm not so keen on Venerable Dreads, I usually have my Elite full with Paladins and Purifiers (and sometimes Vindicare), and the PsyDreads in Heavy Support provide enough armour saturation/fire support for my needs.

Missed rolls are always an irritating event. Greatsword should be devastating against infantry since you have a high change to kill a number of models equal to your number of attacks, if the enemy has only an armour save, of course.

[Godhead]

I have ran one DK with 1 or 2 squads of interceptors and when all of those are focused on a flank...OH my. I am now trying out two DK's with at least 1 squad of interceptors (im trying to juggle points around to see what seems to work best for me) in a Mordrak list. It's is definately nasty as all get out when things work out right. I had a Mech BA list conceded turn 2 after scout moves, shunt and a 1st turn drop by mordrak. I like my DK with the heavy incinerator and 2x doomfists, I am however trying out the second with the sword instead of double fists.

[nurglez]

The main problem I have with the DK, is that he isn't that great at killing things in combat, he may have the same amount of wounds as 4 termies, but he on the charge he doesn't have the same amount of attacks.

 

Like a dread he is best used to tar pit squads, or target vehicles in combat.

 

I'm now halfway through assembling my second DK, started putting him together while watching Iron Man 2 hehe