Can Dreadknights be competitive?

[Something Wycked]

It is a interesting tactic. PT seems mandatory but I always gave DK at least one weapon. Are you sure the "naked" DK won't lack of "tactical potential"? DK's weapons seem to be a valid way to reduce enemy ranks before charging them. Just my curiosity.

Certain people on this forum (I think one of them was number6, I can't remember for sure) were saying that the best way to use a DK was to take it naked and run it across the board as a fire magnet.

 

To me, PT is mandatory :lol:

[Cmdr Shepard]

The main problem I have with the DK, is that he isn't that great at killing things in combat, he may have the same amount of wounds as 4 termies, but he on the charge he doesn't have the same amount of attacks.

 

Like a dread he is best used to tar pit squads, or target vehicles in combat.

 

I'm now halfway through assembling my second DK, started putting him together while watching Iron Man 2 hehe

The real issue is DK's number of attacks. Even assuming we can achieve a number of kills equal to the number of its attacks, not easy task, we can remove from play about 5 enemy models and you have to be very lucky. If you charge, or are charged, by fearless units DK risks to remain in combat without expressing its true potential. If you kill 3 orks per turn your opponent will be very pleased to have de facto neutralized your MC. That's why I think ranged weapons are usefull. You reduce the number of enemy models before you charge them. Another way to achieve the same result is to use DK as supporting model for an assualting unit.

 

 

It is a interesting tactic. PT seems mandatory but I always gave DK at least one weapon. Are you sure the "naked" DK won't lack of "tactical potential"? DK's weapons seem to be a valid way to reduce enemy ranks before charging them. Just my curiosity.

Certain people on this forum (I think one of them was number6, I can't remember for sure) were saying that the best way to use a DK was to take it naked and run it across the board as a fire magnet.

 

To me, PT is mandatory :(

DK as fire magnet... now I can see the usefulness to "fly" it around table with no upgrade. You use a 130 pts model to divert fire from your most expensive or valuable units. Thanks for the clarification.

I agree about PT: it is the best way to make it more survivable.

[Daedalus Templarius]

Just got a 2nd Dreadknight... they seem to work really well tooled up; hurts to lose one with a PT, sword, and incinerator though. It sure can dish out a lot of pain before it goes.

[number6]

Certain people on this forum (I think one of them was number6, I can't remember for sure) were saying that the best way to use a DK was to take it naked and run it across the board as a fire magnet.

I don't know that I was arguing that it was "the best" way to run it! ^_^ But I do think that running it naked is just fine.

 

The answer to the OP's question should be obvious.

 

Short answer: "YES."

 

Real answer: "Yes ... in the right army list."

 

The DK can't be shoved willy-nilly into any army list. As much as people might like to believe that you can't make a quality GK army list without psyflemen, that just isn't true.

 

Similarly: Neither is it true that the DK is a must have.

 

Similarly: Neither is it ture that the DK must have a teleporter. Or a greatsword.

 

Gone are the days of One Size Fits All army lists and Only This Loadout Is Good. There are a rare couple of items that should just be flat out avoided (*cough* psilencers *cough*), but that is far and away the exception and not the rule.

 

The only way one can tell whether any unit -- be it a dreadknight or anything else -- is "good" is when put in the context of an entire army list. It's easier to just shoehorn in "cool" units that you love than to carefully and studiously balance an army's overall capabilities and fighting prowess across the full force organization chart choosing exactly the units and their configurations that lead to a cohesive whole that can do anything you want against any enemy you might face.

[Something Wycked]

So I was half right. :D Bad memory, as usual. Par for the course!

[Daedalus Templarius]

So what kind of build do you think DKs work well in?

[Something Wycked]

Naked DK's can work well in a footslogging list, as they will help to absorb fire on the march across the board. I think they can also work decently in a mechanized list, running behind one of the transports for cover and also absorbing fire.

 

A DK with PT can work in many lists. It can keep up with mechanized transports easily, without depending on the luck of the Run roll. It can fly around with Interceptors and Stormravens, shunt to the location of newly-arrived Deep Striking forces across the board to help support them, any number of things.

 

In warfare, mobility is just as important as firepower; if you are out of position due to lack of mobility, you cannot apply your firepower effectively. This is doubly true if your "firepower" belongs to the melee class.

 

I won't get into the weapon loadouts of the DK since they are all related to the role you want your DK to fill except to say that I would (personally) keep weapons to a minimum. Maxing out the DK, adding two ranged and one melee option, starts to become a huge points sink.

[Daedalus Templarius]

I am running 2 DKs with my Draigowing, and it seems to work decently well.

 

I probably have too many points invested in the DKs, with PT, Incinerator, and sword, but they kill a lot of things.

[TyrionTheImp]

I think DK's go best with Terminators, simply for the fact they share an Armor/Invulnerable save. In that regard, I would lean them towards vehicle killing with a PT and sword, Termies can handle infantry well enough, but not so much the heavy armor.

 

I think the best ways to run them are cheap and naked, or PT and Sword. None of the range weapon upgrades remotely impress me, way too costly and are still limited to the 24" or less band the rest of the army is, simply don't add anything extraordinary.

 

I think if the army is built specifically with DK's in mind it can be competitive, but it's not as much of a plug-in as other options appear to be where it can basically fit in any army.

[Something Wycked]

I probably have too many points invested in the DKs, with PT, Incinerator, and sword, but they kill a lot of things.

You're running right along the edge of what I would call a point sink, with 3 of 4 possible upgrades taken and weighing in at 265 points, IIRC. But compare that to a well-geared 5-man Terminator squad and it's pretty similar, so not a horrible set up by any measure.

 

Especially if it works for you. That's the most important thing :rolleyes:

 

My setup is usually either DK with PT only, or with an Incinerator.

[Inquisitor Fox]

I've said before with this new Codex one squad of anything is 200 to 300 points, even an MSU setup once you factor in the transport. It's merely picking which combinations of 200 or 300 point units works for you ;)

[Daedalus Templarius]

I think DK's go best with Terminators, simply for the fact they share an Armor/Invulnerable save. In that regard, I would lean them towards vehicle killing with a PT and sword, Termies can handle infantry well enough, but not so much the heavy armor.

 

I think the best ways to run them are cheap and naked, or PT and Sword. None of the range weapon upgrades remotely impress me, way too costly and are still limited to the 24" or less band the rest of the army is, simply don't add anything extraordinary.

 

I think if the army is built specifically with DK's in mind it can be competitive, but it's not as much of a plug-in as other options appear to be where it can basically fit in any army.

 

The heavy incinerator is ridiculous, it can make bank shots around buildings!

 

Also, I kill so much stuff with it, it isn't funny.

[Gentlemanloser]

I've said before with this new Codex one squad of anything is 200 to 300 points, even an MSU setup once you factor in the transport. It's merely picking which combinations of 200 or 300 point units works for you

 

A slightly more respectable 160 for MSU Strikes. :)

[Cmdr Shepard]

The only way one can tell whether any unit -- be it a dreadknight or anything else -- is "good" is when put in the context of an entire army list. It's easier to just shoehorn in "cool" units that you love than to carefully and studiously balance an army's overall capabilities and fighting prowess across the full force organization chart choosing exactly the units and their configurations that lead to a cohesive whole that can do anything you want against any enemy you might face.

What army's overall set up do you suggest for a DK "based" force"?

 

 

Naked DK's can work well in a footslogging list, as they will help to absorb fire on the march across the board. I think they can also work decently in a mechanized list, running behind one of the transports for cover and also absorbing fire.

 

A DK with PT can work in many lists. It can keep up with mechanized transports easily, without depending on the luck of the Run roll. It can fly around with Interceptors and Stormravens, shunt to the location of newly-arrived Deep Striking forces across the board to help support them, any number of things.

 

In warfare, mobility is just as important as firepower; if you are out of position due to lack of mobility, you cannot apply your firepower effectively. This is doubly true if your "firepower" belongs to the melee class.

 

I won't get into the weapon loadouts of the DK since they are all related to the role you want your DK to fill except to say that I would (personally) keep weapons to a minimum. Maxing out the DK, adding two ranged and one melee option, starts to become a huge points sink.

 

I agree about mobility. The 130 pts DK will force the opponents to ignore other units or ignoring it and a DK can deliver a significant damage, especially when it destroys the most precious enemy vehicles, for example.

[nurglez]

but at 130 points, for it to destroy a precious enemy vehicle it has to get there, at moving 6 + running only gets you so far. Using it to screen your units and provide a cover save is how I intend to use my second one at 2000 points, while my other one teleports around and threatens those vehicles :cuss

[Cmdr Shepard]

but at 130 points, for it to destroy a precious enemy vehicle it has to get there, at moving 6 + running only gets you so far. Using it to screen your units and provide a cover save is how I intend to use my second one at 2000 points, while my other one teleports around and threatens those vehicles :D

Sorry I meant 205 with PT... just a typing error.... I was thinking about the starting price and I typed it. ;)

 

About cover: DK can easily provide cover to other units but in order to gain cover from a vehicle he must walk behind a Land Raider. I make a measurament and it is cover for little more that 50%, enough to gain cover.

[nurglez]

aye I meant to provide a cover save to units behind him :)

[Cmdr Shepard]

aye I meant to provide a cover save to units behind him ^_^

I used a land raider as cover for DK in the first match I played with new GK ;)

I have assembled very few minis and I played with the few models I built. My opponent thought land rainder was not providing cover so I measured it: slightly more than 50%.

Of course fielding a Land Raider for the purpose of providing DK cover is not wise. Those were particular circumstance...

[number6]

What army's overall set up do you suggest for a DK "based" force"?

A DK-themed force? I would want to maximize my take -- fill the Heavies with nothing but DKs -- and play them "in your face". I'd take greatswords and teleporters on all of them.

 

After that, it's figuring out how to properly support them and apply overwhelming pressure so the DKs aren't the only things going. There are a few ways to do this. You could take Mordrak, for example, then footslog more termies with psycannons as Troops. You could take Coteaz and fill your Troops with cheap, mounted shooty units (e.g., warriors with meltas and stormbolters, MM or HB servitors, Chimeras for all). You could try and fit in a Stormraven or two with assault dudes inside.

 

Ideally you'd be able to provide more units in your opponent's face and significant ranged firepower as well.

[Godhead]

Interceptors mesh really really well with the DK's. Both units benefits from the 30inch shunt move and a 10 man squad of interceptors pumps out a decent amount of firepower.

[The Holy Heretic]

I like The Sword and Incinerator. The sword allows the knight to handle armour with ease, while the incinerator allows it to deal with hordes of infantry, add a PT and you've got a oneman army :lol:

[nurglez]

yes but that 1 man army costs 260 points and can get bogged down in combat easily.

 

I do love my DK (in the same one man army config), last game he killed marbo, 9 pinned vets in cover (would have been a 3+cover save) and a chimera, before dying to lascannon fire from a vendetta. so he got me 3 kill points for the loss of him. You just have to make sure you know his limitations, and to play to his strengths :cuss

[Cmdr Shepard]

What army's overall set up do you suggest for a DK "based" force"?

A DK-themed force? I would want to maximize my take -- fill the Heavies with nothing but DKs -- and play them "in your face". I'd take greatswords and teleporters on all of them.

 

After that, it's figuring out how to properly support them and apply overwhelming pressure so the DKs aren't the only things going. There are a few ways to do this. You could take Mordrak, for example, then footslog more termies with psycannons as Troops. You could take Coteaz and fill your Troops with cheap, mounted shooty units (e.g., warriors with meltas and stormbolters, MM or HB servitors, Chimeras for all). You could try and fit in a Stormraven or two with assault dudes inside.

 

Ideally you'd be able to provide more units in your opponent's face and significant ranged firepower as well.

Thank you for tactical suggestions. DK and a couple of stormravens with assault units would me one of my favorite choices if I were a GK Grand Master. :blink: The only limitation to this tactic is that, contrary to 40k universe's grand masters, we are bond by "cost points".

I didn't make any calculation but I suppose even at 2000 pts this set up will feature a very small number of models. We are playing GK, after all.

The Coteaz's retinue army appear a very interesting force to support DK. Maybe a couple of Tech-Marines could keep the transport operative for longer. Stormraven could fly around bringing death cult assassins to enemy lines: sadly Stormravens dont grant assualt nades to the disembraking units.

 

 

Interceptors mesh really really well with the DK's. Both units benefits from the 30inch shunt move and a 10 man squad of interceptors pumps out a decent amount of firepower.

:

They can also provide suppoer to the DK if needed, like reducing enemy ranks before a charge. Stormbolter can deal more damage than thier "humble" profile may suggest.

[number6]

The Coteaz's retinue army appear a very interesting force to support DK. Maybe a couple of Tech-Marines could keep the transport operative for longer. Stormraven could fly around bringing death cult assassins to enemy lines

I would want to buy Rhinos or Chimeras for the warband units that would ride in the stormravens, and then give those vehicles to the techmarines with orbital strikes. Put those guys in the corners of the table....

[The Holy Heretic]

yes but that 1 man army costs 260 points and can get bogged down in combat easily.

 

I do love my DK (in the same one man army config), last game he killed marbo, 9 pinned vets in cover (would have been a 3+cover save) and a chimera, before dying to lascannon fire from a vendetta. so he got me 3 kill points for the loss of him. You just have to make sure you know his limitations, and to play to his strengths :ph34r:

 

Which is true for any unit in the game. :blink:

 

Of course The DK can be lost, but he rarely fails to leave his mark :)