Nian Posted May 30, 2011 Share Posted May 30, 2011 If I give the squad that Justicar Thawn is part of Psybolt ammunition, does that mean he gets the upgrade also? If he does, does he keep it if he dies and comes back? I have no idea how upgrade characters work. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230911-justicar-thawn-and-psybolt-ammo/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Light Warden Posted May 30, 2011 Share Posted May 30, 2011 It seems so, as both are upgrades to the squad. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230911-justicar-thawn-and-psybolt-ammo/#findComment-2776119 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted May 30, 2011 Share Posted May 30, 2011 It's probable that he gets them when part of the squad. Likely even. But it's unkown if he still has it if he dies and is reborn. That sohuld be in the FAQ thread. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230911-justicar-thawn-and-psybolt-ammo/#findComment-2776507 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Something Wycked Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 I would imagine that since he is splitting off from the unit, much like Combat Squads split off from each other, that he keeps all squad-wide wargear just as Combat Squads keep all squad-wide wargear. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230911-justicar-thawn-and-psybolt-ammo/#findComment-2778135 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nian Posted June 1, 2011 Author Share Posted June 1, 2011 I would imagine that since he is splitting off from the unit, much like Combat Squads split off from each other, that he keeps all squad-wide wargear just as Combat Squads keep all squad-wide wargear. Justicar Thawn seems to be a mess of rules then ey? It appears there's no actual rules in regards to him, but more an interpretation of similar situations. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230911-justicar-thawn-and-psybolt-ammo/#findComment-2778249 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 That's what you get for cheaping out on Rules space, and not giving him (and Mordrak) two entries. One for when they are Upgrade Characters in a unit, and the other for when they're single mini units in thier own right... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230911-justicar-thawn-and-psybolt-ammo/#findComment-2778328 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Something Wycked Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 Justicar Thawn seems to be a mess of rules then ey? It appears there's no actual rules in regards to him, but more an interpretation of similar situations. I wouldn't call it "a mess of rules", since its the absence of rules instead of too many contradictory rules. The rules have a token placed on the spot that Thawn died. When he makes his roll to come back, he is placed within 1" of the token or as close as possible if enemy models are in the way. It goes on to state that from that point he is a separate unit in all respects, much like the verbage from Combat Squads. No mention is made anywhere about the squad's wargear carrying over so by strict RAW he does not get to keep the Psybolts. However, while that follows RAW it doesn't make any sense. Did the xenos/heretics/whoever, when they killed him, remove all of the Psybolt ammunition from his Stormbolter and his person and replace it with regular Bolt shells? It just doesn't make any sense to strip from him an upgrade that you paid to have on his model when you bought the unit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230911-justicar-thawn-and-psybolt-ammo/#findComment-2779151 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor Fox Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 When a unit comes back from the dead from the table edge from a scenario or army rules (the never ending tide of conscripts for IG, or the horde effect from Tyrannids or the right scenarios) it keeps all it's upgrades. Why would this be any different? Likewise Saint Celestine doesn't get downgraded when she comes back from the dead, nor did you lose upgrades for bionics or We'll Be Back. I would imagine the psybolt ammunition stays :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230911-justicar-thawn-and-psybolt-ammo/#findComment-2779152 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 It's different, becuase Thrawn has his own, distinct, unit entry. Which lists his wargear (and all his rules as a single mini unit in it's own right, not as an Upgrade Character to a unit). Psybolt Ammo isn't among his wargear. Ward dropped the ball with the two SCs that can be both Upgrade Characters and single mini units. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230911-justicar-thawn-and-psybolt-ammo/#findComment-2779441 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor Fox Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 It's true, he's his own entry... as a unit upgrade. Similarly to an Apothecary or a Sergeant, he is purchased to modify one of the members of the unit into that profile. He can only exist if bought for a unit, and is a member of that unit in all respects until his rule kicks into effect, and there is nothing in his rule that says to remove any and all upgrades purchased by the unit he was purchased as an upgrade for. Ergo, he keeps his stats that he had at the beginning of the game which includes his psybolt ammo. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230911-justicar-thawn-and-psybolt-ammo/#findComment-2779673 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 Yep that is how it works indeed. G :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230911-justicar-thawn-and-psybolt-ammo/#findComment-2779683 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 It's true, he's his own entry... as a unit upgrade. Similarly to an Apothecary or a Sergeant, he is purchased to modify one of the members of the unit into that profile. He can only exist if bought for a unit, and is a member of that unit in all respects until his rule kicks into effect, and there is nothing in his rule that says to remove any and all upgrades purchased by the unit he was purchased as an upgrade for. Ergo, he keeps his stats that he had at the beginning of the game which includes his psybolt ammo. He dies. He's reborn. Your opponent asks for his stats and looks for his entry in your Codex. His wargear doesn't list Psybolt Ammo, and his unit entry (as a single unit, not an Upgrade Character) doesn't give him the option to purchase Psybolt Ammo. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230911-justicar-thawn-and-psybolt-ammo/#findComment-2779750 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Something Wycked Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 While most of that is true, Gentleman, its a bit counterintuitive. Only default wargear is specifically listed in any unit entry; it is your responsibility as a player to list what wargear each unit has as paid for in your army list. In your written army list, Thawn could be an upgrade character as part of a unit with Psybolt ammo- and would thus have Psybolt ammo. How do you justify unloading the man's Stormbolter and reloading it with standard ammo in the time span between him falling and standing back up? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230911-justicar-thawn-and-psybolt-ammo/#findComment-2780147 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Caloth Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 yes, it applies to him, and stays with him when he stands back up. The upgrade effects the SQUAD, and he is not an IC, but is basically the Sergeant. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230911-justicar-thawn-and-psybolt-ammo/#findComment-2780198 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 While most of that is true, Gentleman, its a bit counterintuitive. Only default wargear is specifically listed in any unit entry; it is your responsibility as a player to list what wargear each unit has as paid for in your army list. In your written army list, Thawn could be an upgrade character as part of a unit with Psybolt ammo- and would thus have Psybolt ammo. It's not counterintuitive in the least. The Justicar Thawn *Unit* has no Wargear options to pay for, or list. If you want to see what that unit has, it's all there in the Codex. (I'm not argueing that the Justicar Thawn Upgrade Character hasn't got the same Psybolt Ammo his unit does, if that makes sense! :lol:) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230911-justicar-thawn-and-psybolt-ammo/#findComment-2780512 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Something Wycked Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 Unloading the man's Stormbolter of Psybolts and reloading it with regular Bolt shells between his death and resurrection is counterintuitive :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230911-justicar-thawn-and-psybolt-ammo/#findComment-2780842 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 Maybe the Psychic backlash from his ressurection scrambles the impregnated Psychic energy of Psybolt ammunition? Who knows... Fluff doesn't usually go hand in hand with rules. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230911-justicar-thawn-and-psybolt-ammo/#findComment-2780928 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Light Warden Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 I see him as a unit upgrade, and his rules define what that specific upgrade does, in addition to the pre-existing upgrades. Some units can upgrade to both melta bombs and a close combat weapon, does this disclude the other because of the title it is given. This is simply a cool titled upgrade that gives modelling options as far as what I can see. When i pay the cost of a meltagun and call it Bertha does it somehow change the fact that it is a unit upgrade? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230911-justicar-thawn-and-psybolt-ammo/#findComment-2780930 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 Unfortunately, that isn't correct. You can, for example, upgrade a Terminator Justicars weapon to be Master Crafted. If you then 'upgraded' the Justicar to Thawn, Thawn's NFH isn't Mastercrafted. That upgrade is lost. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230911-justicar-thawn-and-psybolt-ammo/#findComment-2780937 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Something Wycked Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 I do see where you're coming from Gentleman (of course) but I don't see the breakdown between taking him with the squad and then using him alone. You buy him as an upgrade to the squad, he gets upgraded as the squad gets upgraded and that doesn't change if he then becomes a single model unit after the fact. I don't think we would be having this issue if we could upgrade other pieces of his wargear; if you could upgrade his melee and/or ranged weapons, the argument could not be made that he loses those weapons after he becomes a single model unit because the options are represented on the physical model, and you wouldn't (for example) trade the modeled falchions and psycannon for his standard kit in the codex after he resurrects. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230911-justicar-thawn-and-psybolt-ammo/#findComment-2780944 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Light Warden Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 I might make a slight amends to what I said, master-crafted is model specific, to justicar (ia instead of Master Crafted, justicar is upgraded to thawn) in a choice of your justicar upgrade, thawn or master crafted? Psybolt is a unit upgrade which applies to the unit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230911-justicar-thawn-and-psybolt-ammo/#findComment-2780961 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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