Forté Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 Do I really need to answer that? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230945-winter-guard/page/2/#findComment-2777542 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DV8 Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 While this is conceptually cool, and I'd be interested to see where it would go modelling wise, I can't for the life of me justify the bridge between "mortal" to remade (re: Kasper Hauser) being equivalent on the tabletop to something akin to the stats of a Space Marine (the key components Strength, Toughness, and Initiative). Now, before I continue, I understand that there is an abstraction from the fluff perspective to how it translates to the tabletop, and that there is a huge world of difference between Strength 3 and Strength 4 (likewise Toughness 3 to Toughness 4, etc.) But let us consider the two ends of the spectrum, between which remade mortals like Kasper Hauser (and by your fluff, the Shield Maidens) fall into. Guardsmen, the work-horse of the Imperial Guard, are Strength 3, Toughness 3, and Initiative 3. This ranges the gamut from meat-shield Conscripts to the Stormtrooper/Kasrkin elite. You have everyone from your average Joe-blow to someone who would equivocate to today's Arnold in-so-far as physical strength and capability falling under that blanket Strength, Toughness, Initiative statline (henceforth abbreviated as STI statline). Space Marines, super-human beings elevated so far beyond mortal levels that the fluff has them collectively described as lightning quick, faster than the eye can follow, with the strength of a dozen men and the durability of a tank. Their STI is 4 across, and we can see that the jump from STI 3 to STI 4 is representative of a huge gap in physical prowess. The Inquisitor RPG is a more accurate reflection of the jump between mortals and Space Marines. The upward cap of the average stat is about 200 (as I understand it); your typical Imperial Guardsmen has stats ranging from 50-75. Space Marine stats will border on 200; they can take a Meltabomb to the chest and stand a good chance of remaining alive (albiet with some damage/injury). As strong and as fast as a remade mortal is, they are clearly above STI 3 (the ease with which Kasper defeated the line-troopers with no combat training whatsoever is evidence of this), and yet I'm certain that everyone would agree that Kasper wouldn't stand a chance against any Astartes, even out of power armor, putting them firmly below STI 4. When reading your fluff, I immediately though of the Sisters of Battle. While they fall under the STI 3 statline, they have the 3+ save granted to Space Marines, which coupled with Faith points, makes them pretty damn strong (they can improve their Strength/Initiative, cause Rending, turn their save Invulnerable). Their weaponry is also similar enough to the Space Marines that, while the play style is far different, it also allows you to field a greater number of Shield Maidens (just take lots of Immolators and Exorcists to minimize the number of infantry you need, although you won't be taking full advantage of Faith points). The 3+ save can be used to explain their re-made durability, while the Faith points can be used to reflect their tapping into reservoirs of energy and strength bestowed upon them by the fleshmakers. Their improved WS and BS of 4 over Imperial Guard reflects the superior training they received as Kaerls and within the Aett, and their higher leadership reflects the discipline of the Huskaerls. Another alternative is to use the Grey Knight codex, but minimizing the amount of actual Grey Knights models you field. By taking Coteaz (can represent a wizened Wolf Priest), you unlock Inquisitorial Henchmen as troops; Crusaders with Storm Shields, Death Cult Assassins, and Acolytes are all capable of representing Shield Maidens of various aspects, with the durability that reflects the improvements rendered upon them and stat increases to set them above mortal kin. You can even take Dreadnoughts to round out your long-ranged fire support, representing the Shield Maidens fighting alongside the Revered Ones (Freija and Aldr, as an example). DV8 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230945-winter-guard/page/2/#findComment-2777570 Share on other sites More sharing options...
maverik_girl Posted May 31, 2011 Author Share Posted May 31, 2011 woah :) nice break down DV8 I really like the Dreadnoughts idea! as mentioned, I'm going to just use normal Space Wolves, and have these Winter Guard/Shield Maidens as wound counters for my HQ choices. As for the stats, I don't really want to over-complicate things. So I'm gonna use the excuse of having lighter armour = better movement, fluidity, dexterity, and not to mention women's wrath + enhanced rebuilt body + Sky Warrior ideology + Fenris born savagery = awesome! oh and I think Sisters of Battle mini's are ugly :down: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230945-winter-guard/page/2/#findComment-2777818 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wulfebane Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 imo give them the base statline/wargear/cost of Crusaders (GK:Inquisitorial Henchmen) Crusader.............15 Points per model WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv 4 3 3 3 1 3 2 8 5+ Wargear: Flak armour Power weapon Storm shield Even though they'd cost as much as a Claw or Hunter, the cost is made up through the wargear. In regards to the WS4 vs BC WS3.. Crusaders don't get 3 attacks on the charge and the other abilities (Counter attack, etc). Plus they're S4. I think the lowered WS is indicative of a Claw's inner battle with the canis helix, meaning they care more about bloodshed (multi-attacks) than finesse (weapon skill). oh and I think Sisters of Battle mini's are ugly :) Quoted for truth. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230945-winter-guard/page/2/#findComment-2777819 Share on other sites More sharing options...
maverik_girl Posted May 31, 2011 Author Share Posted May 31, 2011 I like all the options and opinions you guys are all giving me! so thank you for that. Special thanks to DV8 for breaking it all down to the core and mechanics, and Wulfebane for his views and ideas from stats to modelling. But I'm a wolf at heart, and I love Space Wolves! and I really don't see myself using a different codex. So for now, I'm going to stick with using the SW codex and minis for my army. My Winter Guards are (wound counters for actual game play) the silent and unsung heroes, on the battlefield. Like those of Kaerls who serve the Fang everyday. If I were to one day move forward and actually do models.. I would base them off from several miniatures outside of GW range. For some reason, GW can't do beautiful female models. Lelith comes close, but she's a xeno! Anyway here is my list of models I would like to get and use. Sadly if I were to get a hand on several of these pieces, I could only use them on friendly games and not official sanctioned tournaments. Since I hope to one day, be one of the best tourny players in North America and make it to Vegas hahaha Ilyad Games Vorags http://www.coolminiornot.com/268407 http://www.coolminiornot.com/211968 http://www.coolminiornot.com/151513 Confrontation Kelt Fiannas http://www.coolminiornot.com/95497 http://www.coolminiornot.com/95496 http://www.coolminiornot.com/95495 Confrontation Drunes http://www.coolminiornot.com/74658 http://www.coolminiornot.com/53559 http://www.e-minis.net/product_info.php?cP...roducts_id=1187 http://www.e-minis.net/product_info.php?cP...roducts_id=1186 http://www.e-minis.net/product_info.php?cP...roducts_id=1193 http://www.e-minis.net/product_info.php?cP...roducts_id=1192 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230945-winter-guard/page/2/#findComment-2777853 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wulfebane Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 That first pic is awesome! I can easily see you hacking off that left arm and planting a targe in the ground to have her hand resting on, and even though I'm alll for nudity, I think it'd be better to portray her with that grey-black bodysuit Kasper was always commenting on (which Ragnar also comments on in the first 1-2 books of the Omnibus) ..and the third pic, her left leg is disproportionately too long and forward. And oh gods, the Confrontation Drunes minis fail to represent those concept images. Those images were amazing. I agree with the GW female sentiment. They all physically look like thinner catachans with 6-packs and squashed heads. They should've gone with less muscle to achieve the "agile warrior".. just toned body and supple to achieve the effect. The notion of all that muscle makes the model seem less agile and fluid. You can be super-fit and athletic without having to be ripped. Look at gymnasts! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230945-winter-guard/page/2/#findComment-2777991 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arez Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 If I were to one day move forward and actually do models.. I would base them off from several miniatures outside of GW range. For some reason, GW can't do beautiful female models. Lelith comes close, but she's a xeno! Anyway here is my list of models I would like to get and use. Sadly if I were to get a hand on several of these pieces, I could only use them on friendly games and not official sanctioned tournaments. Since I hope to one day, be one of the best tourny players in North America and make it to Vegas hahaha who cares? Wolf her up a bit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230945-winter-guard/page/2/#findComment-2777997 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HvitrValdyr Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 Excellent fluff. I'm gonna echo the previous comments and say I love the link to the Valkyrie myth. It also gets me more excited to read Battle of the Fang when it gets released here next week. Can you answer a question for me please... So for now, I'm going to stick with using the SW codex and minis for my army. My Winter Guards are (wound counters for actual game play) the silent and unsung heroes, on the battlefield. Like those of Kaerls who serve the Fang everyday. Do I understand this correctly to mean that your army will be regular male space marines of the Rout, accompanied to war by female members of the winter guard, who will play no part in the actual battle and have no stats, but serve as awesome looking counters to keep track of wounds etc? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230945-winter-guard/page/2/#findComment-2778028 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DV8 Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 Ah. I see what you're doing Mav_Girl. I was operating under a couple assumptions: That you wanted units of Winter Guard (or possibly an army of them) That you were gonna model/convert them uniquely (that is, not using stock models...in this case, if you did use the Sisters of Battle list, you wouldn't actually be using Sisters of Battle models) In addition to using them as Wound Counters, there are several different ways you can incorporate more Shield Maidens/Winter Guard into your army, without actually having units of them: Choosers of the Slain. They can be Winter Guard scouts that act as spotters for the Rune Priest Objective Markers. Winter (Van)Guard that are defending an objective, which the Wolves must advance up to reinforce, defend, and/or relieve. As you've mentioned, Wound Counters. Fenrisian Wolves. Think of them as mini-Thunder Wolves (if you're into that sort of thing). Basically Shield Maidens/Winter Guard riding Fenrisian Wolves. Less-armored can be regular, more-armored can be the Cyber-Wolves. DV8 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230945-winter-guard/page/2/#findComment-2778030 Share on other sites More sharing options...
maverik_girl Posted June 1, 2011 Author Share Posted June 1, 2011 In addition to using them as Wound Counters, there are several different ways you can incorporate more Shield Maidens/Winter Guard into your army, without actually having units of them: Choosers of the Slain. They can be Winter Guard scouts that act as spotters for the Rune Priest Objective Markers. Winter (Van)Guard that are defending an objective, which the Wolves must advance up to reinforce, defend, and/or relieve. As you've mentioned, Wound Counters. Fenrisian Wolves. Think of them as mini-Thunder Wolves (if you're into that sort of thing). Basically Shield Maidens/Winter Guard riding Fenrisian Wolves. Less-armored can be regular, more-armored can be the Cyber-Wolves. DV8 NICE! I love it. Thank you for the ideas! those all sound really great :P especially the Objective Markers and Rune Priest: Choosers. Can you answer a question for me please...So for now, I'm going to stick with using the SW codex and minis for my army. My Winter Guards are (wound counters for actual game play) the silent and unsung heroes, on the battlefield. Like those of Kaerls who serve the Fang everyday. Do I understand this correctly to mean that your army will be regular male space marines of the Rout, accompanied to war by female members of the winter guard, who will play no part in the actual battle and have no stats, but serve as awesome looking counters to keep track of wounds etc? Aha yes pretty much :P The Rout are grim warriors, who get the job done no matter what the cost, and by any means possible. The Winter Guard are there to, run errands amongst Wolf Lords to his Wolf Guards. And as such with the similarities to the myth of Valkyries, are there to help Wolf Priest collecting the canis helix from fallen Sky Warriors, and tend the wounds of the injured. Like I said, the maidens in my fluff are the unsung heroes to an ever so cool fluff, that is Space Wolves. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230945-winter-guard/page/2/#findComment-2778081 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HvitrValdyr Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 Excellent, thanks for the clarification. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230945-winter-guard/page/2/#findComment-2778098 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaveriK Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 I like the idea/visualism of your shield maidens being more of a support group/characters in a setting with space wolves. who are there to actually go out and gather the sacred gene seed of Russ from fallen space wolves. Wound counters is great being shield maidens, having done their "job" to their Wolf Lord. Dibs out on making them between you and me though LOL your *bleep* out of luck on that department ;p Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230945-winter-guard/page/2/#findComment-2778161 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rikochet Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 Wow certainly interesting idea Mavs Girl. It got me interested in doing something similar, I would probably convert some dark eldar wyches using some imperial guard and scouts bitz Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230945-winter-guard/page/2/#findComment-2778172 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blacksad Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 think I'd go for Wood Elf Wardancers. they're wild, lean fightingmachines, and many of the models are female. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230945-winter-guard/page/2/#findComment-2778174 Share on other sites More sharing options...
maverik_girl Posted June 1, 2011 Author Share Posted June 1, 2011 Found this great model, post #57 http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...37484&st=50 on the WIP thread. It would be very ideal for my Winter Guard. Just need to give her a sword, and shield + wolf her up! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230945-winter-guard/page/2/#findComment-2778186 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rikochet Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 Yay! He used a wych to make a sister of silence! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230945-winter-guard/page/2/#findComment-2778193 Share on other sites More sharing options...
commander alexander Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 Death-cult Assassins may not be a bad choice either. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230945-winter-guard/page/2/#findComment-2778196 Share on other sites More sharing options...
hendrik Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 if you like the look of sisters of silence you should check out these skadi! ;) http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...=sister+silence with a wolf pelt these could easely pass as shield maidens! ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230945-winter-guard/page/2/#findComment-2778240 Share on other sites More sharing options...
postal105 Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 as long as you knew it was coming wolf brother ;) so there's no need for a slap. Although it may change things during training and actual battle.. ;) something to think about hehehe jk it seems like postal is the quiet one out of the three of us. only quiet beacuse i dont want my my foe to know where or when the next attack will come from besides hasn't it been said watch out for the quiet ones you never know what there thinking ;) but in this case i will have to say i like the idea:) ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230945-winter-guard/page/2/#findComment-2778246 Share on other sites More sharing options...
commander alexander Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 mav_girl, would you mind going into a little more detail on your own character? What weapon she uses, what does her shield look like, garments etc.. I'd like to render a drawing and then try for a conversion. As many details as possible if you don't mind please ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230945-winter-guard/page/2/#findComment-2778254 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanisD Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 Not sure if these might fit the bill or not. http://www.thewarstore.com/femalevalkyrie.html Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230945-winter-guard/page/2/#findComment-2778266 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsuro Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 I mean, I was excited and surprised to read about a female warrior who was a part of the Rout in, First Battle of The Fang. I've not read this, would anybody mind providing a little more detail? Choosers of the Slain. They can be Winter Guard scouts that act as spotters for the Rune Priest Objective Markers. Winter (Van)Guard that are defending an objective, which the Wolves must advance up to reinforce, defend, and/or relieve. As you've mentioned, Wound Counters. Fenrisian Wolves. Think of them as mini-Thunder Wolves (if you're into that sort of thing). Basically Shield Maidens/Winter Guard riding Fenrisian Wolves. Less-armored can be regular, more-armored can be the Cyber-Wolves. I'd also consider servitor stand-ins, non-riding "count-as" wolves and wargear markers/standard bearers; That way you can have a nice big standard without worrying about how the Grey Hunter would fight with it. You'd need a way of identifying which squad member it was 'attached' to though. I'd add that since you're planning on gaming with these models, I'd be wary of having too many different stat-lines/objects represented by similar figures. Seems a little unfair to your opponent. My suggestion would be to do it this way: If you're using the models as retinue/wound counters (my favourite idea) I'd suggest limiting their appearance to other, non unit applications (objective markers, choosers of the slain, standard bearers etc..) No confusion there. But if you're fielding them as a stand-alone unit, such as scouts, don't also field them as a different unit (or vice versa) and limit their non-unit appearances. (Why does that wolf-lord have a couple of scouts with him etc..?) I don't know how good your modelling skills are, but if you're planning to kit-bash out of Dark Eldar, finding the right head(s) will be crucial. I don't have much knowledge of non-GW products, but the only female heads I can think of are Hasslefree's, and they're hairless and earless (and so obviously require a bit of work.) Tsuro Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230945-winter-guard/page/2/#findComment-2778393 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firenze Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 After seeing those sisters of silence, Wyches converted definately looks the best. Damn it, now I want to do some Winter Guard and another SW army. Maybe True Scaled... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230945-winter-guard/page/2/#findComment-2778423 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loki-LaughingDeath Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 The thing about the Rackham minis is that they are more slender than GW's usual offerings, however if you can find them look for the Lions of Alahan Valkyrie models they should look like this http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A2KJkewcZuZNJGkA...lahan-n---z.php I happen to have Felyn and Morgen and the Drune Lanyfs....they are interesting. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230945-winter-guard/page/2/#findComment-2778701 Share on other sites More sharing options...
maverik_girl Posted June 1, 2011 Author Share Posted June 1, 2011 Buwhaha I got Mav to do up a mock model for me on our holidays, fortunately our friend here in Portugal plays Wood Elves, so he managed to use several pieces. He'll post the pics once I get off the computer. Anyway, what do you all think about the name Winter Guard itself? does it feel bland or boring? I took that name out of the phrase... "until next winter" from the book Prospero Burns. Although the Sky Warriors in my fluff refer to the Winter Guard as "Shield Maidens", kinda like outsiders call The Rout, "Space Wolves" or how The Rout themselves are known formally as Vlka Fenryka. So here are some options using my iPhone's translator haha; - Winter Guard in Norwegian, Vinteren Vakt. - Winter Guard in Swedish, Vinter Vakt - Winter Guard in Icelandic, Vetur Vörður Also I was thinking about actual stats for the maiden warriors, okay so humor me here for a sec guys! picture this: Wolf Lord with Fen Wolves as wargear. Having my Shield Maidens as Fen Wolves, with Fen Wolves stats. They are there for extra wounds right? like a role of an actual steward/shield maiden. They are lighter, making them faster. They don't shoot, because they prefer being the meat shield and close combat. They are agile, because of their armour/or lack of... so what do you think? putting them on cav bases to show their constant running/dancing around with their blades. Cause putting them on normal circle bases, I can see my opponent call foul, and cheese. Just some ideas! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230945-winter-guard/page/2/#findComment-2778987 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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