BLACK BLΠFLY Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 If you deep strike a squad of GKT with Thawn and they mishap and are destroyed can Thawn come back? G <_< Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230951-justicar-thawn-and-a-mishap/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffersonian000 Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 I'm going to go with no, since a mishap has nothing to do with him dying. SJ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230951-justicar-thawn-and-a-mishap/#findComment-2776751 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 I'd plump for yes, but would need to check the wording in the BRB to be sure! ;) As his rule kicks in when "He's removed as a casualty", I'd also say it works if he's hit by any of the 'sepcial' remove form play, like Zone of Banishment, Jaws, etc. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230951-justicar-thawn-and-a-mishap/#findComment-2776946 Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 a casualty is defined as removing the last wound from a model from unsaved wounds.. there are lots of situations that results in removing a model from the table ithout causing actual wounds the deepstrike mishap, merely states the unit is destroyed, it doesnt state they are removed as casualties.. the plus side is, instant death weapons do state removed as casualties, so thawn is in essence immune to ID.. also note death or glory will remove him without causing wounds, im sure there are many codex specific rules too, but these are the BRB examples i could think of Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230951-justicar-thawn-and-a-mishap/#findComment-2777021 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angelis Mortis Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 a casualty is defined as removing the last wound from a model from unsaved wounds.. Oh really? What page is that defined on? (I love when people quote non-existent rules.) HINT: May want to read the ENTIRE section on page 24 of the BRB. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230951-justicar-thawn-and-a-mishap/#findComment-2777059 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 a casualty is defined as removing the last wound from a model from unsaved wounds.. Check Zone of Banishment mate. :D Those that fail the S test are "Removed as Casulaties". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230951-justicar-thawn-and-a-mishap/#findComment-2777131 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted May 31, 2011 Author Share Posted May 31, 2011 You have to place one model on the table when you deep strike a unit... might as well just put down Thawn. G :rolleyes: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230951-justicar-thawn-and-a-mishap/#findComment-2777593 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffersonian000 Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 BRB pg 24 begins the section that defines what a casualty is, while BRB pg 95 defines what a deep strike mishap does. As Thawn loses no wounds in a mishap, he is not a casualty and therefore his "I Sall Not Yeld" special rule does not kick in as seen on pg 43 of the GK codex, which requires Thawn to be removed as a casualty. SJ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230951-justicar-thawn-and-a-mishap/#findComment-2777903 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nurglez Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 So I'm guessing jaws, rift, daemonbane etc which remove the model will bypass his special rule, interesting.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230951-justicar-thawn-and-a-mishap/#findComment-2777971 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffersonian000 Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 That would be correct. Any rule that removes a model outright without the model becoming a casualty would bypass Thawn's special rule, as well Eternal Warrior. SJ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230951-justicar-thawn-and-a-mishap/#findComment-2778018 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 I can't remember the wording on Jaws, but Zone of Banishment, which does the same thing, specificly states to remove those who fail the test as casualties. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230951-justicar-thawn-and-a-mishap/#findComment-2778321 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted June 1, 2011 Author Share Posted June 1, 2011 ... as casualities. :D G :mellow: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230951-justicar-thawn-and-a-mishap/#findComment-2778453 Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 a casualty is defined as removing the last wound from a model from unsaved wounds.. Oh really? What page is that defined on? (I love when people quote non-existent rules.) HINT: May want to read the ENTIRE section on page 24 of the BRB. HINT, you may want to try and be a little more polite, my interpretation is valid and the rule exists. pg 24 BRB remove casualties for every model that fails its save, the unit suffers an unsaved wound. Of course this also includes wounds against which no save can be attempted, such as those from force weapons and with very high AP. Most models have a single wound on thier profile, in which case for each unsaved wound one model is immediately removed from the table as a casualty it shows that a model with only one wound needs suffer only one unsaved wound to be conisdered a casualty, i would go as far to say it reduces wounds to 0.. this covers all models of all wounds characteristics. there are other things that remove models as a casualty, but since its defined as taking away the last unsaved wound, we could simply assume that these things reduce wounds to 0 as an effect. as i said and as has been repeated, anything which doesnt use the 'removes as a casualty' mechanic can bypass thawns special ability also see page 26 multiple wound models Once a model has lost all of its wounds, it is removed as a casualty Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230951-justicar-thawn-and-a-mishap/#findComment-2778590 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted June 1, 2011 Author Share Posted June 1, 2011 That is one specific case - does not necessarily rule out others. G ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230951-justicar-thawn-and-a-mishap/#findComment-2778679 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 Thing is, Mini's that lose a wound/all thier wounds are removed as casualties. But that's not the only way to be removed as a casualty, and 'removed as a casualty' isn't defined as 'losing your last wound'. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230951-justicar-thawn-and-a-mishap/#findComment-2778684 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted June 1, 2011 Author Share Posted June 1, 2011 You are describing a Catch 22 situation. G ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230951-justicar-thawn-and-a-mishap/#findComment-2778689 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 Not at all. ;) In the game, there is a state/action of Casualty/Removed as a Casualty. You can become a Casualty/Removed by losing your last wound. But that's not all the ways you can be a Casualty. Therefore Casualty/Removed as a Casualty isn't defined as 'losing your last wound'. A mini that loses thier last wound belongs to the set of Casualty/Removed as a Casualty. But so does a mini failing a Zone of Banishment Strength Test. I hope this helps! ;) as i said and as has been repeated, anything which doesnt use the 'removes as a casualty' mechanic can bypass thawns special ability Yes, I'd totally agree here. And I checked Jaws. Jaws states 'removed form play', which isn't Removed as a casualty. So Thrawn hit by Jaws wouldn't get to ressurect. Edit: I'd also suspect that Wards shockingly bad writtign is as fault here too, and Zone of Banishment should state 'removed from play'. Really, any proofreders and the editor in charge of OK-ing this codex should be stopped form ever working on another Codex again... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230951-justicar-thawn-and-a-mishap/#findComment-2778717 Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 The problem is the BRB only lists losing your last wound as the cause of being removed as a casualty.. yes i know there are other special rules that treat you as being removed as a casualty without physically causing wounds, but the rulebook doesnt state any other reasons in the removing causalties section. its easier to accomodate everything if we assume that rules that remove minis as casualties are in effect reducing wounds to 0 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230951-justicar-thawn-and-a-mishap/#findComment-2778724 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted June 1, 2011 Author Share Posted June 1, 2011 Basically it says anytime he is removed as a casuality you can attempt to revive him - so for example this would work against both Warp Rift and Zone of Banishment. I will have to check the rulebook for mishaps when deepstriking. G :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230951-justicar-thawn-and-a-mishap/#findComment-2778730 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 its easier to accomodate everything if we assume that rules that remove minis as casualties are in effect reducing wounds to 0 You can't do that, as it has other knock on effects. For example (I know an irrelevant one, as the moment he reaches zero wounds or is removed, the Ghost Knights go too, but the point remians and I cna't think of any other examples of the top of my head! :P), Mordrak hit by Zone. If we assume it reduces his wounds to zero, he would get to spwan additional Ghost Knights. If he's just removed without wounding, he doesn't. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230951-justicar-thawn-and-a-mishap/#findComment-2778733 Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 its easier to accomodate everything if we assume that rules that remove minis as casualties are in effect reducing wounds to 0 You can't do that, as it has other knock on effects. For example (I know an irrelevant one, as the moment he reaches zero wounds or is removed, the Ghost Knights go too, but the point remians and I cna't think of any other examples of the top of my head! :P), Mordrak hit by Zone. If we assume it reduces his wounds to zero, he would get to spwan additional Ghost Knights. If he's just removed without wounding, he doesn't. its easy to be pedantic, i know... but actually causing wounds has its own mechanic.. simply reducing the wounds value to 0 wouldnt be the same as causing actual wounds Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230951-justicar-thawn-and-a-mishap/#findComment-2778735 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bl00d bath76 Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 What i think we have to consider is that 'removed as a casualty' is the only way GW can say that the model is dead. For example if they put 'removed from play' this would lead to all sorts of abuses similar in the case just the reverse. The way its worded to say when a model is reduced to 0 wounds it is removed as a casualty is irrelevant to this discussion because that is just one way for a model to be removed as a casualty. The same can be said for thawns rule. There is no way for GW to word his rules so that he always come back to life. This is because if they said 'removed from play' this might disclude him resurecting if he fails an armour save for example. Overall the way these rules are worded is to try and disclose as many loop holes as possible so i don't think we should make assumptions about deffinitions and such. I think thawn can resurect because when deepstriking you place a single model which will be thawn and then 'the unit is destroyed' Therefore that model is on the table and destroyed means removed as casualty. And before people say how destroyed is different it means the same thing happens. If you destroy thawn he is a casualty that is common sence as if you destroy any living thing it dies which a casualty is a description of. However this is a difficult issue and i think a question which will hopefully be answered in the FAQ. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230951-justicar-thawn-and-a-mishap/#findComment-2778886 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted June 1, 2011 Author Share Posted June 1, 2011 its easier to accomodate everything if we assume that rules that remove minis as casualties are in effect reducing wounds to 0 You can't do that, as it has other knock on effects. For example (I know an irrelevant one, as the moment he reaches zero wounds or is removed, the Ghost Knights go too, but the point remians and I cna't think of any other examples of the top of my head! :D), Mordrak hit by Zone. If we assume it reduces his wounds to zero, he would get to spwan additional Ghost Knights. If he's just removed without wounding, he doesn't. I think you are thinking too hard. I pretty much agree with everything bl00dbath has said. G :confused: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230951-justicar-thawn-and-a-mishap/#findComment-2778892 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffersonian000 Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 The older 3rd Ed rules for Nemesis Force Weapons had models "killed outright" and removed from the table, which would bypass the casualty rules. On the flip side, Lukas the Trickster's "The Last Laugh" special rule removes the model from play as a casualty, which would allow Thawn's rule to kick in. "Jaws of the World Wolf", however, has models removed for play, which would bypass the casualty rule, and therefore remove Thawn without his rule kicking in. Each situation needs to be taken individually, with the specific rules applied to each given instance that those rules apply. Blanket statements on how things work will only be accurate in the general, not the specific. SJ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230951-justicar-thawn-and-a-mishap/#findComment-2778975 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted June 1, 2011 Author Share Posted June 1, 2011 I agree with what you said - it needs to be taken on a case by case basis. :nuke: G :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/230951-justicar-thawn-and-a-mishap/#findComment-2779018 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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