Horus fighting the Long War

[Perrin]

Why exactly did Horus rush to confront the Emperor on Terra? I can't remember it being mentioned anywhere in the HH novels yet.

I think if he had fought the war slower and had taken time to conquer most of the galaxy before attacking Terra he would have won easily.

First of all, the Traitors begin with a huge advantage. 3 loyal legions are, for all the use they will be, are wiped out at Istaavan. So Horus already has 9 Legions to the Emperors 6. Actually call it 8 and a half because of the Thousand Sons being decimated and losing their homeworld.

So theres Horus' forces = 8.5 Legions and probably around half of the Imperial Army.

Then theres the Emperors Forces = 6 Legions, half of the Imperial Army, the Custodes and Sisters of Silence.

Some of Horus' forces are turning to chaos though so that would affect discipline in the army in some cases.

 

How easy would it have been for the Traitors to just turn up at a Loyalists homeworld and completely destroy it? The Salamanders for example, most of their fleet and Legion had been destroyed, it would have been simple to just turn up in the system and destroy Nocturne with planet killers or the virus bombs used on Istvaan 3.

 

Then just rinse and repeat, keep destroying homeworlds, ambushing loyalists, it would have been so easy. I know the HH went on for around 7 years and we don't know what happened during these 7 years but the Loyalists went straight on the defensive, most of the Legions went straight to Terra and then they just worked at fortifying the Palace. If Horus had led his armies straight to Ultramar instead of just sending some of the WB then the biggest loyal legion would have been destroyed. He could have sent any of the traitors to where the Blood Angels were fighting on the daemon worlds and ambushed them after they had defeated the daemons.

 

Obviously Horus couldnt do any of that for the sake of the storyline but from a strategic point of view Horus would have won easily if he had taken the time to conquer everything before going to Terra, he could have blockaded the Sol System after destroying the Ultras, Space Wolves and DA, and just waited till he had enough troops and marines to completely destroy the Emperor.

I know he wanted to inherit the Imperium so destroying planets wasnt his plan but there are thousands of planets in the 30k/40k universe, destroying the home planets of 7 legions and maybe a few of the ultramar planets wouldnt have a huge difference on the Imperium.

 

Any thoughts on this?

[Valkyrion]

He rushed because of the surprise factor. Whilst no one knows his allegiance he can send the legions that wouldn't turn far away. It worked too, because there were only three legions defending terra and he had 7 (I think - no Alpha Legion and no Sons, right?)

 

In a way he was doing what you suggested anyway - after Isstvan he had no need to go to Medusa, Deliverance or Nocturne, he sent the Word Bearers after the Ultramarines and the Alpha Legion after the Space Wolves.

 

The Imperial Fists were always going to be on Terra, but the Blood Angels and Dark Angels were both involved in different, but fairly extreme events before the Siege. That only leaves the White Scars and I think they were harangued by the Alpha Legion as well.

[The Broker]

It's worth remembering that all of the traitor legions had to purge significant numbers of their own troops.

 

I can't remember how much was purged (1/3 of each legion comes to mind, but I can't remember from where so I'll ask for someone else to corroborate/ source this). And more were lost to the brief war that occurred in the Istvaan system (both against the purged and the drop site massacres).

 

So to assume that Horus had intact legions is a step too far.

 

They may already have had difficulty replenishing their losses;

 

-Olympia & Nostramo were destroyed, so that's two legions that lost a lot of resources and potential recruits.

-World Eaters were never the most coherent legions (their homeworld isn't stated IIRC, so they were probably fleet based).

-EC may have lost interest in training new recruits amidst all the mindless hedonism, they certainly wouldn't want to be looking after scouts when they could be exploring their new senses.

-Death Guard were suffering from Nurgle's Rot, and I don't believe that whether or not they can recruit new marines at all.

-Thousand Sons were never a large legion, and they didn't get any bigger while losing Prospero, and lost significant numbers of marines. Unstable gene seed limited their ability to replenish quickly as well.

-Alpha Legion, in fairness to them, probably kept recruiting as they always did. The Imperium in 40k thinks they're still recruiting, so they probably did during the Heresy.

-Word Bearers probably kept recruiting IMO, though this is pure speculation. I'd imagine that they selected recruits as much on perceived piety to the Chaos Gods as anything else though.

-Luna Wolves probably kept recruiting, though this is speculation again.

 

We know the loyalist legions kept recruiting, because all their homeworlds stayed intact, though these were probably unable to supply troops at a great rate due to warp storms and having to break through the siege of terra would limit them further.

 

My point is, the traitors were less suited to a drawn out war then the loyalists, as the loyalist legions were in a better position to replenish losses than the traitors (especially the likes of the Ultramarines - I've always considered their large territory a better reason for their size than any rumour about absorbing legions). As such, the loyalists would be able to wage war on a wider front, recapturing key territory while holding their own. The traitors were logistically inferior to the loyalists, and would be ground down over time.

 

Hope this post reads well enough. :tu:

[Morollan]

If we start picking holes in tactics/plot etc then James Bond dies in about the first 3 minutes of any film and the One Ring gets dropped straight into the fires of Mordor by Eagle Express.

[Billuriye]

But if we don't start picking holes and stuff, the forums would lose it's mentally stimulating charm.

[Lord Ragnarok]

His hand was forced because the Space Wolves and Dark Angels were on their way during the siege of Terra. Projection of finishing the siege/vs them landing on their heads was not favorable to the traitors. They would have probably made a sandwich out of the besiegers.

 

 

 

 

Obviously Horus couldnt do any of that for the sake of the storyline but from a strategic point of view Horus would have won easily if he had taken the time to conquer everything before going to Terra, he could have blockaded the Sol System after destroying the Ultras, Space Wolves and DA, and just waited till he had enough troops and marines to completely destroy the Emperor.

 

He sent the Alphas to delay/destroy the SW's, perhaps he could not send more assets as this would compromise his current overall strategic superiority. Or perhaps it was too hard to find the SW's. Similar with the DA's (if you read "Age of Darkness" it will make sense), maybe they could only afford to delay them with the NL's.

 

Also, after the drop site massacres things may have been very murky. Between the warp storms and former allies masking their movements, you may not know the exact positioning of the enemy.

[nurgling6688]

@The Broker: Nostramo wasn't destroyed until either after the heresy of very late into it as I recall.

World Eaters had a home world but can't remember its name at the moment.

I agree with the EC statement.

Death Guard did not suffer Nurgle's Rot (actaully the Destroyer Hive) until they were on their way to Terra. The ships got stranded in the Warp in transit. So they weren't plague marines until most likely the last year of the Heresy. So more then likely they kept recruiting. (as for current recruitment, I imagine they just take in any traitor who has fallen to nurgle's rot)

Thousand Sons, on top of everything you mentioned, were hardly allies to Horus' cause. They had no love for him or chaos in general. Their situation was the Imperium threw them out, they either join Horus or die.

and Alphas, WBs and Sons of Horus most likely did as you said.

 

In all honesty Horus most likely would have won if he had taken his time. Send all of the Word Bearers plus another legion to destroy the smurfs, easy done. Take out the three weakened legions (Raven Guard, Salamanders and Iron Hands) like was stated. Though in all fairness the Iron Hands were still at almost full strength during the Heresy. They only lost their 1st company and their Primarch. Huge moral losses, but numerically, not that huge. Attack the blood angels at Signus Prime, maybe pull another Isstvan on them. They were un aware of the Heresy at that point, send one of the traitor legions to "support" them as a second wave, then after the demons jump out and say BOO send in the 2nd legion to finish them off. Dark Angels were fractured. Play on it, support which ever side was favorable to Horus (Luther's or the Lions, who knows which one was actually loyal) and either destroy the other half or at the very least embroil them in a lengthy civil war.

 

The only Legions that would have really posed a threat would have been the Wolves, Scars and Fists, at full strength with no weakness to prey on. It doesn't matter if the Emperor still hold Terra if Horus held the rest of the Galaxy. Let the big E rule his empire of one world. Even Mars belonged to Horus.

 

With all of the legions he had plus more then half the Mechanicum he could have won.

[Billuriye]

Horus may be strained from containing that much power too. So he had to act fast before deteriorating.

[Iron_Adam]

He took 7 years from Istvaan didn't he? That's not quite rushing it.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Nope, Nostramo was destroyed before the Heresy even broke out, just after Curze's fight with Dorn.

[Perrin]

He took 7 years from Istvaan didn't he? That's not quite rushing it.

 

Compared to the 10,000 years afterwards, it is rushing. He rushed it compared to if he had taken a few decades to conquer all of the galaxy and wipe out loyalist legions that aren't already at Terra rather than delay the other loyalists and strike straight towards Terra.

 

Like L_C said, Nostramo was destroyed before the Heresy, shortly after Kurzes fight with Dorn, and Olympia wasnt destroyed until after the Heresy. Perturabo slaughtered most of the population when they rebelled but the planet itself wasnt destroyed until Ultras and Fists attacked it during the Scouring.

 

Not having a homeworld would have been of some benefit to the traitors i think. It would be easier to recruit from worlds visited during the campaign than returning to the same planets over and over which would increase the chance of an ambush.

 

If i was Horus I'd have ambushed the BA while they were fighting the daemons, destroyed Baal along with any BA that had survived/fled, destroyed Nocturne, Deliverance and Medusa, then attacked Fenris while letting spys leak information to the Space Wolves that they were going to be attacked. The Wolves would be forced to return to Fenris where the combined forces of at least 2 traitor legions could destroy them, or just destroy the planet from orbit. Then do the same to the DA and Ultras, then wait for a while to build up forces before finally attacking Terra. This way there would only be the Fists, the White Scars and the Custodes on Terra, they would be lacking in resources because of Mars turning agaisnt them, (id have probably sent a small fleet to the Sol System to guard Mars from a counter-attack) and there wouldnt be the fear of reinforcments attacking me from behind.

 

Though the corruption of Chaos would have set in through-out the traitor legions and its possible that destroying the isolated loyal legions would have resulted in so many losses that the Emperor decides to hunt the traitors down.

 

By the way, when did Mars turn traitor? I've read Mechanicum and from that I got the sense that it turned shortly after the HH began, but then theres the 7 years in Age of Darkness, I'd have expected the loyalists on Terra to have retaken it before the 7 years were up.

[EPK]

Horus's mind was clouded by Chaos and blind ambition. As was his standard tactic, he wished to simply cut the head from the loyalists and depose the Emperor. Perhaps in his warped mind he thought that if he was crowned Emperor the galaxy would follow. I see similarities to how Caesar crossed the Rubicon and after a civil war emerged as the leader. He did not try to secure lands, he simply called their bluff and marched his army into Rome.

[blamb]

World Eaters had a home world but can't remember its name at the moment

There aren't any records of it's name. It is belived Angron Destroyed it after the siege of terra.

[Perrin]

Horus's mind was clouded by Chaos and blind ambition. As was his standard tactic, he wished to simply cut the head from the loyalists and depose the Emperor. Perhaps in his warped mind he thought that if he was crowned Emperor the galaxy would follow. I see similarities to how Caesar crossed the Rubicon and after a civil war emerged as the leader. He did not try to secure lands, he simply called their bluff and marched his army into Rome.

 

Thanks, I honestly can't believe I never realised that ^_^ That being Horus' standard technique that had worked so well for him then his chaos muddled mind would probably have thought that was the only option.

Hopefully we'll see more about things like this in AD-B novella about the Traitor council after Istvaan. It would be interesting to see how the other Primarchs thought they should go destroying the Emperor.

[Tybrus]

There are a few things to keep in mind.

 

1) The Emperor's "Secret Work", pushed the time line, because it was not Horus that set his timeframe, it was the Chaos gods. They could not let The Emperor finish, and so required their pawns to push the timeframe forward.

 

2) In a protracted War, You have to take into account the Emperor created the marines, and the Primachs, and could "build" faster or better if given time. This could tie into the New Grey Knight Fluff or not, but it does tie into the point above.

[Sons of Horus]

Horus was only a pawn of the Chaos Gods. He wasn't the one making all the decisions.

[Jimmy Carmine]

Horus was weak. Horus was a fool. He had the whole galaxy within his grasp and he let it slip away. :tu:

[Perrin]

@Jimmy Carmine, liking that quote, Abbadon says it right?

 

I didn't think that Horus was that much a pawn of chaos?

Obviously they manipulated him and nudged him in the directions they wanted him to go in but i dont think they had complete control over him. And i dont think Horus could have known about the Emperor working on the webway, unless Magnus had told him which is unlikely, as Magnus seemed ashamed after he had ruined the Emperors project and i dont think he would have gossiped about it. If the chaos gods knew about the Emperors webway project (they probably did) I dont think they could have told Horus much about it, if they could then why not tell him that the Alpha Legion arent actually traitors? Or maybe they are, or maybe the current setting is exactly what chaos wanted.

 

Im not sure the Emperor could have made new marines that easily. Say Horus takes 20 years to conquer/destroy everything and then he finally gets to Terra. Im not sure that the Emperor could have made new legions worth of marines by then. Plus I doubt the Emperor finishing the webway project was a big deal. Magnus had already almost ruined it, and from what it says in ATT he damages it beyond repair. Even if the Emp could connect to the Webway from Earth, how long would it have taken for him to fight through the tides of daemons, plug the hole in the webway, and then connect to other parts? The Emperor wouldnt have been able to do anything worthwhile because he was stuck stopping the tides of daemons getting out of the webway gate and over running Terra. Chaos would have known this so they should have advised Horus to take it slow.

[Sons of Horus]

If Horus was 'weak' then what the heck is Abaddon?

 

Horus was weak. Horus was a fool. He had the whole galaxy within his grasp and he let it slip away. ^_^

[Ubermensch Commander]

The HH book, Nemesis, lays out his reasoning fairly well, though part of it is due to Chaos influence. A Black Legionnaire actually asks the same question "why not blitz them right here and now?"

If I recall correctly Horus felt he needed to appear legit, being a filthy frakking traitor and all, so he had to keep "rightful conqueror" image up and to scare worlds still on the fence to his side in order to shore up that support. There is more to it, but sadly, escapes me right now. Some good back and forth between Erebus, Black Legionaries, and Horus.

 

Later HH novels may invalidate some of this but up to this point, this is the rationale.

Horus went to confront the Emperor, on Terra to claim the throne of the Imperium. Once there, he lowered the shields to confront the Emperor because overwhelming force approached to aid the Loyalists. Horus had chosen to attack because the Ultramarines were still halfway across the galaxy, along with the Dark Angels and Space Wolves. By the time of the Siege of Terra, the Alpha Legion and Word Bearer forces sent to delay them had been smashed. It was either take the Emperor out right then and there, or be ground to pulp by three "fresh" (relative term, all had been fighting) Legions of Adeptus Astartes and the defenses of the Imperial Palace.

 

@Sons of Horus regarding Abaddon and Horus relative level of foolishness, weakness and/or holding galaxy in hand capabilities.

A bigger fool?

[Cleon]

I always saw Horus starting the Siege of Terra much like Hitler and Operation Barbarossa.

 

In both cases it's their primary objective their going after (Horus the big E, Hitler the Russians) and both knew it was going to be hard, but that they would never stand in a stronger position.

 

In Hitler's case because of the confusion in the Red Army following the purges and the potential for USA to join the war, for Horus he's got a bunch of vain egomaniac primarchs following his lead, if he doesn't deliver them success will they continue to follow? Fulgrim (or what Fulgrim had become) was already wrecking his legion's ability to fight and the World Eaters and Night Lords were getting more and more out of control, also how long could the renegade Tech adepts hold Mars if there were no Traitor Legions in the Solar System?

 

I think Horus would have preferred to play the longer game, but the odds weren't in his favour compared to doing his speartip assault so he made his plan and rolled the dice.

[Epistolary Exander]

Actually Horus was in a good position to attack & kill the Emperor early but it would have meant the subsequent civil war would have panned entirely differently. Yet Horus could have still attacked Terra & deal with each threat in turn. It would have required him to use the assets more at his desposal more wisely. The reason for this is that based on the recent novels was the Chaos Gods made the Warp was quite turbulent in most parts of the Imperium to prevent long range Warp Travel & therefore isolating large parts of the Imperium, with the only major area of calm being the route from the Eastern Fringe to Terra. If we look at the affects this had on the loyalist legions.

1) Dark Angels: Divided with the Luthorians on Caliban declaring independence from the Imperium & therefore most likely to be either neutral or hostile towards both sides (afteral Horus was trying to take the Imperium). The vast bulk of the legion is stranded with the Lion, initial in the Shields Worlds, later engaging the Night Lords.

2) White Scars: Appear to uninolved with any major compaign & so try to reach Terra when they are attacked by Alpha Legion.

3) Space Wolves: Appeared to reduced to about 5000 marines after the assault on Tizca & to subsequently fall back to Fenris before trying to reach to Terra. Opon trying to reach Terra they are assaulted by the Alpha Legion

4) Imperial Fists: Split into 2 deployments with the veteran companies on Terra with Dorn. 2 of the veteran companies are heavily mauled trying to liberate Mars. Vast bulk of the legion is stuck in a system close to Istvaan, unable to enter the Warp & make way to Terra comes under heavy assualt by an Iron Warriors task force.

5) Blood Angels: The entire legion is deployed to Signus Prime open where the legion suffers heavy loses liberating the system from daemons. Sanguinius severely injured.

6) Iron Hands: Losses its own veteran companies & Ferrus Manus dead. Legion appears to either be gripped with indecision on Medusa after Istvaan or deployed across the loyalist worlds to sure up their defence. Possibly even both events happening. Most important thing about them is why they did not bother arriving at Istvaan to support their Primarch.

7) Ultramarines: Gathered in their entirety at Calth. Under heavy assault by Word Bearers open which they sustain severe loses but appear to be close to fully functional despite this. Again are unable to travel to Terra to reinforce its defence.

8) Salamanders: Almost wiped out in its entirety at the Battle of Istvaan. Plays no more significant role.

9) Raven Guard: Around 3000- 4000 surviving members escape Istvaan. Their role in the heresy is awaiting to be revealed in Deliverence Lost.

 

Looking at the deployment of loyalist legions, the vast majority of loyalist marines were not a threat after Istvaan as they either didnt know or were unable to travel to Terra. If Horus attacked Terra directly after Istvaan it would have fallen without too many problems due its defences being serverely undermanned by Astartes standards. Admittedly there were 6 large bodies of loyalist Astartes floating the galaxy (ignoring the Caliban Dark Angels as they only want to sit on Caliban doodling their thumbs) that would have put up a stern challenge afterwards. Also the few thousand marines of the Wolves & Raven Guard could have been significant threats if their Primarchs used their remaining forces wisely, which knowing both Primarchs they would have done.

 

Horus could have relied on the turbulence in the Warp to keep the large deployments of enemy marines in position while he in turns smashes them one loyalist legion at a time. Or even 2 or 3 loyalist legions at a time.

[Marshal Angman]

Right, I haven't checked through to see if anyone has covered this yet, so if it has, I'm sorry.

 

As far as I've been able to find out the Scars during the heresy is this. They wanted to go istvaan, but were too far away. And after the SW's got attacked by the Alpha Legion they also wanted to help them out, as the SW's & Scars were very close. However Dorn basically begged Khan to get his backside back to Terra as fast as possible.

 

Horus never really accounted for the Scars in his planning as he assumed that they would follow him & turn to Chaos (a bunch of savage, head hunting space mongols, who'd have thought they'd stay loyal eh?)

 

Can't wait for the scars story line to get fleshed out! Surely they must've done something else than capture a space port away from the traitors in a seven year long cival war right?

[Kalythos]

Horus was never meant to win. The outcome of the Heresy was the ideal outcome for the Chaos Gods: a gradual, inevitable descent to stagnation and decay, an ideal breeding ground for the extremes of emotions that feed Chaos.

 

 

As such, it is quite probable that the Chaos Gods and their messengers misguided Horus or even facilitated the travel of the loyalists, in order to force his hand and bring about the desired outcome.

[Vodunius]

The Alpha Legion IA mentioned them inflicting a stinging defeat on the White Scars at Tallarn.