vanguard veterans

[christheodorou]

Hi guys dont know if this is in the right place or even if this has been discussed before but i cant find it so thought id ask the question

 

What is the most competative weapons kit out for a 5 man vanguard veterans unit for a bloodangels army, basically i want to use them as a scalpel , take out tanks, independent characters, small squads and such.

 

Thnaks in advance guys

[Iron Lord]

The best place would be the Blood Angels section of the forum.

[Koremu]

The best place to ask this is Tactica Astartes

[bystrom]

I suggest you use the search option, searching only the titles in the Blood Angels subforum, using vanguard as searchword. There have been quite a few topics about equipping vanguard veterans in a BA army, so there'll be a lot of information and opinions for you to look through.

[Brother Tyler]

Note that I moved this topic to the Blood Angels forum from Amicus Aedes. Yes, the Tactica forum would also have been appropriate, but it's more of a query/work in progress for now, so the BA players can either provide a decent answer or point the OP in the right direction.

[Morollan]

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...amp;hl=vanguard

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...amp;hl=vanguard

[BOBMAKENZIE]

Pfist Pwep. Thats my suggestion. Come in mess up small squads, certain weak MCs. Most tanks and disrupt other units. And its super cheap.

[JamesI]

Pfist Pwep. Thats my suggestion. Come in mess up small squads, certain weak MCs. Most tanks and disrupt other units. And its super cheap.

 

If I am intending to strike at MC/tanks as well as small shooty units, I usually spend the few extra points to upgrade the PFist to a THammer and add 1 meltabomb. Also, I like a lightning claw in place of the Power Weapon, mainly for that improved wounding chance (not that it helped me yesterday)

 

It really depends on what you want/points you have. I've seen some really nasty Vanguards running several thunder hammer/storm shield or lightning claw/storm shield guys that cost a ton but hit a ton too.

[BOBMAKENZIE]

Pfist Pwep. Thats my suggestion. Come in mess up small squads, certain weak MCs. Most tanks and disrupt other units. And its super cheap.

 

If I am intending to strike at MC/tanks as well as small shooty units, I usually spend the few extra points to upgrade the PFist to a THammer and add 1 meltabomb. Also, I like a lightning claw in place of the Power Weapon, mainly for that improved wounding chance (not that it helped me yesterday)

 

It really depends on what you want/points you have. I've seen some really nasty Vanguards running several thunder hammer/storm shield or lightning claw/storm shield guys that cost a ton but hit a ton too.

 

Agreed certain small buffs to the unit can make it much much better against specific targets. However I figured I'd keep it cheap and utility focused. I figured the Power Weapon comes free on the sargeant so would leave it at that. Don't look the gift horse in the mouth and such. :tu: of course I probably should have mentioned that.

[JamesI]

Remember, trading that power weapon to a lightning claw on the sergeant is also free.

[Isryion]

Hi guys dont know if this is in the right place or even if this has been discussed before but i cant find it so thought id ask the question

 

What is the most competative weapons kit out for a 5 man vanguard veterans unit for a bloodangels army, basically i want to use them as a scalpel , take out tanks, independent characters, small squads and such.

 

Thnaks in advance guys

 

 

I use them for all purpose as well. Mine come out to 270, which is pretty pricey, but they have yet to fail in doing their job.

 

Here's what I run: Sgt w/ 2LC, TH, PF/SS, PW, BP/Chainsword.

[Cpt. Blood Donator]

Hi guys dont know if this is in the right place or even if this has been discussed before but i cant find it so thought id ask the question

 

What is the most competative weapons kit out for a 5 man vanguard veterans unit for a bloodangels army, basically i want to use them as a scalpel , take out tanks, independent characters, small squads and such.

 

Thnaks in advance guys

 

 

I use them for all purpose as well. Mine come out to 270, which is pretty pricey, but they have yet to fail in doing their job.

 

Here's what I run: Sgt w/ 2LC, TH, PF/SS, PW, BP/Chainsword.

 

Give the sarges other claw to the dude with the pistol and chainsword. More power weapon attacks, just like that.

[Isryion]

Hi guys dont know if this is in the right place or even if this has been discussed before but i cant find it so thought id ask the question

 

What is the most competative weapons kit out for a 5 man vanguard veterans unit for a bloodangels army, basically i want to use them as a scalpel , take out tanks, independent characters, small squads and such.

 

Thnaks in advance guys

 

 

I use them for all purpose as well. Mine come out to 270, which is pretty pricey, but they have yet to fail in doing their job.

 

Here's what I run: Sgt w/ 2LC, TH, PF/SS, PW, BP/Chainsword.

 

Give the sarges other claw to the dude with the pistol and chainsword. More power weapon attacks, just like that.

 

Heh, that's not a bad idea, but I like having a model I can wrap PW wounds to without cost. Also, it's a modeling issue as my 2xLC is a former Captain who now leads the VG;)

[thade]

I'm here, I'm here. Sorry for the delay. Hi, my name's Thade and I love my Vanguard.

 

If you want a Vanguard unit to take apart light armor (i.e. Rhinos) and infantry, consider a five to seven-man unit with single-lighting claws on each veteran, with (and this is important) a Sanguine Priest running around with them. Don't give them jump packs (they get CRAZY expensive with jump packs), instead sticking them in a transport. I'm a fan of the LR for it's assault ramp and tertiary contributions to the battlefield, i.e. fire power and AV14 mobile wall/transport...but with BA you could stick them in a 'bird too. On the charge they'll get 3 attacks a piece at Str 5, re-rolling to wound/pen. I recommend giving at least one of them a power fist for the occasional IC or Dreadnought.

 

There are more effective units at either job, but this Vanguard isn't a specialist-unit; it's got two goals in mind...an all-arounder, in a way. You also get the typical Vanguard-benefits in that they can perform Sweeping Advances (not wearing TDA), can fit in light transports, etc. (The stuff I usually yammer on about when comparing them to terminators.)

 

In general, when kitting out a Vanguard, stick to the following formula:

• Take at least six.
  
• For every model that gets an upgrade, have at least one model that has no upgrade. (These are "ablative wound marines"; take saves/wounds on them so as to protect your upgrades.)
  
• No model gets more than one upgrade (i.e. a model gets either a weapon upgrade or a defensive upgrade, but never both, and no model dual-wields)
  
• One model per four should carry a storm shield (and ONLY a storm shield). This guy is around to soak stray armor-ignoring hits.
  
• Think long and hard before giving them jump packs. Honestly, stick them in a transport instead.
  

Understand that they are still infantry (ie fragile, even if marines) and that they should be used like a vanilla assault squad: hiding behind your gun-line and moving out to counter-assault. They should NEVER charge in first and expect to survive...or even kill anything. Given the chance to focus-fire such a costly unit, your opponent will happily do so...and you'll be down a very large chunk of points.

 

EDIT: Fixed an egregious typo.

[Cpt. Blood Donator]

I wouldn't recomend having ablative wounds in a vanguard units, especially not in a 1:1 ratio. They're expensive enough as it is, and while a simple claw or p.wep might add to the cost, ablative wounds in such a unit is the wrong way to go about it in my opinion. They're for assaulting devastators and other things which won't fight back anyway, and if they miss the H.I, they're pretty much wasted points unless you use them for S.S tanking. So really, all or nothing.

[Gv0zD]

I wouldn't recomend having ablative wounds in a vanguard units, especially not in a 1:1 ratio. They're expensive enough as it is, and while a simple claw or p.wep might add to the cost, ablative wounds in such a unit is the wrong way to go about it in my opinion. They're for assaulting devastators and other things which won't fight back anyway, and if they miss the H.I, they're pretty much wasted points unless you use them for S.S tanking. So really, all or nothing.

I wouldn't agree with this. If you don't take "ablative" vets, you either would have to upgrade them all or take fewer guys. And losing a guy with LC or TH to lucky shooting is not a thing you'd like.

And, if you use them primarily against units that are unable to fight back in HtH, you'd need fewer weapon upgrades, which in turn leaves you with "ablative" vets anyway :)

And they are pretty good at fighting HtH specialized units, even termies die before them pretty often ;)

[Deus_Sanguinius]

On the charge they'll get 3 attacks a piece at Str 7, re-rolling to wound/pen.

 

Huh? How do you get Strenght 7 attacks? You mean S5 if there is a SP near by. For me the only reason to take Vanguard Veterans is HI. Without HI VV are somehow pointless because there are enough other strong assault units in our Codex. If VV without Jump Packs in a LR work for you everything is fine but I would rather take Assault Terminators which are harder to kill and are much cheaper.

 

Cheers

Sang

[thade]

They're for assaulting devastators and other things which won't fight back anyway, and if they miss the H.I, they're pretty much wasted points unless you use them for S.S tanking. So really, all or nothing.

 

You're making a few assumptions here that are, at best, drastically reducing your use cases for Vanguard.

• First off, if you're not giving them jump packs, H.I. is a non-issue. If you are using them for H.I., they are an expensive suicide unit; don't give them anything other than jump packs, especially if your goal is to tear apart a Dev squad. A five-man vanilla vanguard will land with 20 attacks on the charge, the Devs will swing back with - at best - half that.
  
• "They're for assaulting devastators." I have used my Vanguard to throw down with Assault Terminators, one to two tactical marine squads (in a single charge), command squads, nurgle-ized terminators, vanilla assault squads, other vanguards, sternguards...enumerating the targets against which they've been successful would take some space. :D I caution you against pigeon-holing them into so small a role. They're a devastating counter-charge unit; if your tacticals get rushed by Meganobz, single-lit claw Vanguard is a fun way to open those cans up.
  

I can't stress enough how much you will want ablative wounds in your vanguard unit. Each time you find yourself stacking saves on a guy with two lighting claws - a guy with one wound, WS4, and no invuln save - you will feel it. Have a few guys in there to take the pressure off your upgrades. They're not just useless either: don't forget they get base 2 attacks.

 

Here's a surprise (and favorite) Vanguard load-out of mine:

- One guy with a power fist. Maybe.

- Six to nine additional vets with no upgrades.

- Chaplain (or Libby with the chaplain-style power).

 

How does 40 vanilla face punches sound to you? How about if you get to re-roll misses? It does an alarming amount of damage (you're rolling a dice cube like some n00b ork player...but you're not a n00b ork player, you have freakin' power armor on) and it's pretty reasonable on the points-wallet. Expand your mind when it comes to Vanguard; they have far more uses than simply suicide-bombing single utility units.

[thade]

On the charge they'll get 3 attacks a piece at Str 7, re-rolling to wound/pen.

 

Huh? How do you get Strenght 7 attacks? You mean S5 if there is a SP near by. For me the only reason to take Vanguard Veterans is HI. Without HI VV are somehow pointless because there are enough other strong assault units in our Codex. If VV without Jump Packs in a LR work for you everything is fine but I would rather take Assault Terminators which are harder to kill and are much cheaper.

 

Cheers

Sang

 

Eep. That was a typo. I do in fact mean S5. Thanks for catching that.

 

I do use the BA codex and when I field Vanguard they're either:

- one PF, two to three single-LCs, maybe one with a SS, two to three vanilla vets

- six to ten vanilla vets

 

They virtually always ride in a LRR (my preference, choose your fav LR variant) and ride around with a Librarian and a Sang Priest. I've had good success with a vanilla assault squad in that ride with those ICs too...it's a trade off: do I want a scoring unit in that AV14 box, or do I want the Pain Train in that box?

[Koremu]

My my, you have learned well Thade... I almost forgive you for someone in TA saying they were running a "thade-pattern" Vanguard unit :D

[Cpt. Blood Donator]

They're for assaulting devastators and other things which won't fight back anyway, and if they miss the H.I, they're pretty much wasted points unless you use them for S.S tanking. So really, all or nothing.

 

You're making a few assumptions here that are, at best, drastically reducing your use cases for Vanguard.

• First off, if you're not giving them jump packs, H.I. is a non-issue. If you are using them for H.I., they are an expensive suicide unit; don't give them anything other than jump packs, especially if your goal is to tear apart a Dev squad. A five-man vanilla vanguard will land with 20 attacks on the charge, the Devs will swing back with - at best - half that.
  
• "They're for assaulting devastators." I have used my Vanguard to throw down with Assault Terminators, one to two tactical marine squads (in a single charge), command squads, nurgle-ized terminators, vanilla assault squads, other vanguards, sternguards...enumerating the targets against which they've been successful would take some space. :D I caution you against pigeon-holing them into so small a role. They're a devastating counter-charge unit; if your tacticals get rushed by Meganobz, single-lit claw Vanguard is a fun way to open those cans up.
  

I can't stress enough how much you will want ablative wounds in your vanguard unit. Each time you find yourself stacking saves on a guy with two lighting claws - a guy with one wound, WS4, and no invuln save - you will feel it. Have a few guys in there to take the pressure off your upgrades. They're not just useless either: don't forget they get base 2 attacks.

 

Here's a surprise (and favorite) Vanguard load-out of mine:

- One guy with a power fist. Maybe.

- Six to nine additional vets with no upgrades.

- Chaplain (or Libby with the chaplain-style power).

 

How does 40 vanilla face punches sound to you? How about if you get to re-roll misses? It does an alarming amount of damage (you're rolling a dice cube like some n00b ork player...but you're not a n00b ork player, you have freakin' power armor on) and it's pretty reasonable on the points-wallet. Expand your mind when it comes to Vanguard; they have far more uses than simply suicide-bombing single utility units.

 

Most people use them for alpha-striking some sort of ranged threat. Why the hell would you take vanguards without jump packs over death company to begin with?

If you want to use vanguards primarly for assaulting assault termies or any other dedicated assault unit with an inv. save, you've only go yourself to blame. They lose to everything that does assaulting well. Banshees, incubi, assault termies, genestealers, you name it. Their promary role is disruption in most lists, they're not for smacking down anything that is actually good at c.c fighting. Quite simply because they themselves are not, and will never be. They're horribly overcosted (see interceptors for reference), and the only reason we use them is because of DoA, which makes them sort of "good". But a unit designed to take out real c.c units? No.

[SnorriSnorrison]

I will build me a new squad of veterans, as my "old" ones do not please me anymore - both modelwise and gamewise.

 

The new squad will consist of 5 men, all with JP. Two guys with Lightning Claw and Stormshield, one Powerweapon dude, Hammer, and Sarge with PW. 280 pts, helluva expensive unit, but it rocks. It can take Powerfist attacks(or other ones...take Grey Knight Halberds for example) with the stormshields and still deals out all-pw attacks, and some of them will re-roll the to-wound rolls.

 

That's my take. What do you think brothers?

 

 

Oh, Thade, a few posts back you said that Lighting Claw Vets would re-roll to wound/pen...well, that's only 50% true, unfortunately. LC do not allow to re-roll armour penetration, only wounds against models with a toughness value. :D

 

 

Snorri

[Gv0zD]

The new squad will consist of 5 men, all with JP. Two guys with Lightning Claw and Stormshield, one Powerweapon dude, Hammer, and Sarge with PW. 280 pts, helluva expensive unit, but it rocks. It can take Powerfist attacks(or other ones...take Grey Knight Halberds for example) with the stormshields and still deals out all-pw attacks, and some of them will re-roll the to-wound rolls.

 

That's my take. What do you think brothers?

It is similar to what I run myself - TH+SS, LC+SS, LC or PW (depending on my mood :D ) and two ablative vets. That's a good loadout in my opinion. Especially if you take two such squads :devil:

[thade]

My my, you have learned well Thade... I almost forgive you for someone in TA saying they were running a "thade-pattern" Vanguard unit :D

 

Ha! My name's just easier to spell, old-timer. :devil:

[SnorriSnorrison]

The new squad will consist of 5 men, all with JP. Two guys with Lightning Claw and Stormshield, one Powerweapon dude, Hammer, and Sarge with PW. 280 pts, helluva expensive unit, but it rocks. It can take Powerfist attacks(or other ones...take Grey Knight Halberds for example) with the stormshields and still deals out all-pw attacks, and some of them will re-roll the to-wound rolls.

 

That's my take. What do you think brothers?

It is similar to what I run myself - TH+SS, LC+SS, LC or PW (depending on my mood ;) ) and two ablative vets. That's a good loadout in my opinion. Especially if you take two such squads ;)

 

In my former unit, I had two ablative veterans, but their non-pw attacks really did not make a difference to the combat, most of the time they even allowed my opponent to stack all the pw attacks on one unlucky model and allocate the "normal" attacks to the rest.

That's why I shall be trying this configuration...no place to hide for the foes of the Emprah. :P

 

 

Snorri