vanguard veterans

[thade]

Why the hell would you take vanguards without jump packs over death company to begin with?

Cost. Rage. Ability to attach ICs. My marines are technically Salamanders successors - using their gene seed - so without a lick of crazy BA-seed in them, none of my boys even drool, let alone rush off without my say-so. ;)

 

Just to name a few reasons why, that is.

 

Think of it this way: volume of shots/bodies has always availed me better than lack of either. It's the whole reason that - when I used the vanilla dex - I would use Vanguard instead of a Command Squad: being limited to five bodies was severely restricting in upgrades, ablative wounds, and the number of models I could engage at one time. This last part is my favorite: my eight vanguard can charge in and multi-assault much more frequently/easier than your three to five man DC. That is a huge motivator for me; I love tying up infantry - or even breaking multiple units - with a single Vanguard charge.

 

Oh, Thade, a few posts back you said that Lighting Claw Vets would re-roll to wound/pen...well, that's only 50% true, unfortunately. LC do not allow to re-roll armour penetration, only wounds against models with a toughness value. :P

You...may be right about that. I feel like this came up on the OR board, but I can't recall how we settled. I do remember that it was brought on by - at least, for my part - an event where I was permitted (in fact, instructed) to re-roll my pens against a Rhino. Whether you are correct or not may impose me with some much-delayed guilt.

[SnorriSnorrison]

Oh, Thade, a few posts back you said that Lighting Claw Vets would re-roll to wound/pen...well, that's only 50% true, unfortunately. LC do not allow to re-roll armour penetration, only wounds against models with a toughness value. :P

You...may be right about that. I feel like this came up on the OR board, but I can't recall how we settled. I do remember that it was brought on by - at least, for my part - an event where I was permitted (in fact, instructed) to re-roll my pens against a Rhino. Whether you are correct or not may impose me with some much-delayed guilt.

 

Mh, how odd that this happened. I don't claim to speak the inevitable truth, but that's how I read the rule as wounding is different from armour penetration. ;)

 

Snorri

[JamesI]

thade, claws only reroll to wound , not armor pen.

[Isryion]

Why the hell would you take vanguards without jump packs over death company to begin with?

Cost. Rage. Ability to attach ICs.

 

 

Of course, DC and VV are exactly the same cost and you can attach IC to DC as well. If you're putting them in a Crusader, Rage shouldn't matter much and then you get the benefit of FC, FNP and higher WS. I'm not saying the Rage can't be a factor and obviously you have a different kind of fluff list, but Cost and ability to attach ICs are not reasons that should be involved as there is absolutely no difference (when you're not running them with jp).

 

I'm with the camp that would say there's not much point in taking VV unless you give them jump packs and make good use of their HI. I can see where a large number without the special weapons can be fun, though, too. IMO, if you're fielding them without jump packs, there are better choices for the points.

[thade]

Of course, DC and VV are exactly the same cost and you can attach IC to DC as well.

I remember neither of these things...but don't have my book here at work either. I'm on my way home, and will revisit this shortly!

[Cpt. Blood Donator]

Death Company perks include: WS5, fnp and f.c guaranteed, takes a troop slot, chaplain effects and Lemartes. Yeah, that's right, Lemartes. A storm raven carries him, and the other lads don't need jump packs. Works ut the same price as chaplain D.C and raider. Rage is the only drawback death company without jump packs have, and that is sort of fixed by a (more or less) compulsary transport.

 

What really separates D.C from V.V, is that they are an actual C.C unit, which can truly lay down C.C hurt if you're willing to pay for it. Vanguards are purely better-at-fighting marines, but marines were never actually good at that. Or atleast that is how I see it. Dunno how others might feel about it, but that is what I've found out from playing them.

[Isryion]

What really separates D.C from V.V, is that they are an actual C.C unit, which can truly lay down C.C hurt if you're willing to pay for it. Vanguards are purely better-at-fighting marines, but marines were never actually good at that. Or atleast that is how I see it. Dunno how others might feel about it, but that is what I've found out from playing them.

 

I can see your point here, provided you aren't giving them special weapons, which of course makes them more expensive (and DC can take them, too, with the exception of the LC). Otherwise, I'd say you could just as well go with an assault squad, who save points on the LR, though you lose and attack. However, I've found that if you need that extra attack (or 9 in this case) they probably aren't going to do you much good;) Again, this is all without jump packs, but when you add HI into play, it's a whole 'nother ballgame.

[Cpt. Blood Donator]

What really separates D.C from V.V, is that they are an actual C.C unit, which can truly lay down C.C hurt if you're willing to pay for it. Vanguards are purely better-at-fighting marines, but marines were never actually good at that. Or atleast that is how I see it. Dunno how others might feel about it, but that is what I've found out from playing them.

 

I can see your point here, provided you aren't giving them special weapons, which of course makes them more expensive (and DC can take them, too, with the exception of the LC). Otherwise, I'd say you could just as well go with an assault squad, who save points on the LR, though you lose and attack. However, I've found that if you need that extra attack (or 9 in this case) they probably aren't going to do you much good;) Again, this is all without jump packs, but when you add HI into play, it's a whole 'nother ballgame.

 

There is also the fact that vanguards without power weapons aren't actually able to kill marines without power weapons in any reliable way. 40 attacks without F.C (let's forget about the power weapons), offs like 3.4 marines. This is great as you won't be shot at in the next turn, but there is also the chance that you won't be free until your next assault phase. That is ofc assuming an unit of 10 vanguards, which is bonkers. I run mine 4xpower weapon 1x Thunderhammer and two meltabombs. Still a bit steep, but they do what they have to do rather well.

[Isryion]

What really separates D.C from V.V, is that they are an actual C.C unit, which can truly lay down C.C hurt if you're willing to pay for it. Vanguards are purely better-at-fighting marines, but marines were never actually good at that. Or atleast that is how I see it. Dunno how others might feel about it, but that is what I've found out from playing them.

 

I can see your point here, provided you aren't giving them special weapons, which of course makes them more expensive (and DC can take them, too, with the exception of the LC). Otherwise, I'd say you could just as well go with an assault squad, who save points on the LR, though you lose and attack. However, I've found that if you need that extra attack (or 9 in this case) they probably aren't going to do you much good;) Again, this is all without jump packs, but when you add HI into play, it's a whole 'nother ballgame.

 

There is also the fact that vanguards without power weapons aren't actually able to kill marines without power weapons in any reliable way. 40 attacks without F.C (let's forget about the power weapons), offs like 3.4 marines. This is great as you won't be shot at in the next turn, but there is also the chance that you won't be free until your next assault phase. That is ofc assuming an unit of 10 vanguards, which is bonkers. I run mine 4xpower weapon 1x Thunderhammer and two meltabombs. Still a bit steep, but they do what they have to do rather well.

 

Yeah, that's what I was getting at, that the points you pay for the extra attack (by itself) aren't worth it.

[thade]

... with the exception of the LC ...

You don't like LCs?

 

I'm home and have my rulebooks now. Same point cost, both can link up with ICs...still boils down to Rage (which can be used to kite a unit around like a bunch of ninnies), LCs, and Storm Shields.

[Cpt. Blood Donator]

... with the exception of the LC ...

You don't like LCs?

 

I'm home and have my rulebooks now. Same point cost, both can link up with ICs...still boils down to Rage (which can be used to kite a unit around like a bunch of ninnies), LCs, and Storm Shields.

 

D.C can't use those, as they get roughly the same results with power weapons and chaplains. Now, once again, raiders, rhinos and ravens fix kiting. Besides that, kiting isn't half as bad as people make it out to be if you've gotten 12-18" in the right direction. How much can a speeder possibly go without getting close to its own forces and not closing on the D.C itself?

 

D.C don't "need" stormshields. They don't have to take a beating, as when they're kitted out with some power weapons they'll plough through most things on account of hitting and wounding moste MEQ on 3+ with possible re-rolls on both. There is no planet on which vanguards are better at anything fighting related than are the D.C. For the same points, you have to have a scew lose to take vanguards. Or you're doing something extremely fluffy.

[Isryion]

... with the exception of the LC ...

You don't like LCs?

 

I'm home and have my rulebooks now. Same point cost, both can link up with ICs...still boils down to Rage (which can be used to kite a unit around like a bunch of ninnies), LCs, and Storm Shields.

 

 

No, it's not that I don't like LC, I would, but as mentioned, it's one of the things that DC don't have access to. Yes, rage CAN be used to kite them around, but if you're talking LR as a transport, it's probably not going to happen too often. Heck, I haven't had it happen much and I've mostly run them in a razorback or rhino. I get them stuck in somewhere and they usually eventually get so much attention they die. But yes, it's a risk. It's just whether, in the case of how you suggested using them, you're better off with DC or VV, balancing rage with the in-built advantages of DC.

 

Anyway, it's not really a discussion of controlling DC and their rage. Some people take the risk and do fine while others don't, and both perspectives have their merits.

 

I use both in my lists and they serve different purposes. My VV are use HI to hit the opponent behind his lines and my DC go for a strongpoint at the front of them, both drawing a ton of attention and hopefully hitting something hard. If I've got something rolling in a LR, there are probably at least 2 other choices I'd use before VV and maybe 3.

[thade]

There is no planet on which vanguards are better at anything fighting related than are the D.C. For the same points, you have to have a scew lose to take vanguards. Or you're doing something extremely fluffy.

 

To be fair, I am being fluffy. Also, I have personally wiped out DC squads with my vanguard. Kiting the droolers around with a Rhino made it easy to set them up for a covered-charge (no other unit interference).

 

Mathharmmer isn't always the end-all-be-all.

[Cpt. Blood Donator]

There is no planet on which vanguards are better at anything fighting related than are the D.C. For the same points, you have to have a scew lose to take vanguards. Or you're doing something extremely fluffy.

 

To be fair, I am being fluffy. Also, I have personally wiped out DC squads with my vanguard. Kiting the droolers around with a Rhino made it easy to set them up for a covered-charge (no other unit interference).

 

Mathharmmer isn't always the end-all-be-all.

 

You played better, sure. There is no mathhammer about this, the death company are simply better. You rolled better, or whatever. Doesn't change raw stats.

[thade]

You played better, sure. There is no mathhammer about this, the death company are simply better. You rolled better, or whatever. Doesn't change raw stats.

That is the point I'd like to make; it goes beyond stats. Rage is annoying as a balance point. Vanguard have no such control-exploit.

 

People rely on "what stats make what better", but superior numerics (unless extreme) don't make up for strategy. You field DC, everybody knows they're scary and they handle them accordingly. You field VV, even experienced players will write them off as a waste of points and get taken for a ride by them.

 

So, while I don't disagree that a Death Company marine and a Vanguard Vet 1v1 with identical load outs will always go to the DC marine, I do disagree strongly that the Vanguard should be written off for that reason alone.

[Elsven]

Im sure many will disagree with me on this however I love my VV they make a great multi assault unit I have them kitted with TH/SS, 4 X LC/SS, LC, Sometimes I add more plain LC's depending on point allocation. I will say this they do get expensive very quickly so you better make sure the have a good role to play in your list. I usually use mine to alpha strike a unit on the way in and cripple my enemies plans. You really will love to look on other peoples faces when you deep strike them and assault in one turn it really throws people off. One thing to watch out for is that even with our 1d6 roles for scatter they will sometimes fail you so make sure your not only counting on them coming in, make sure you have back up plans. The other thing is when they come in you can usually count on them getting into combat right away so you should not have to worry about them getting singled out ether if your careful. Anyway let me know if you want to know more about how I run my VV.

[knife&fork]

At larger squad sizes the transport discount of the RAS is diminished by the amount of extra attacks gained by the VVs. Next to the DC however there doesn't seem to be any real good reason to pick VV. Relentless, guaranteed furious charge and FNP down to the last man, the ability to get both hit an wound re-rolls with a chaplain.

 

Compared to the DC and assault terminators you might get away once with your opponent underestimating them. On the other hand that's a lot of points to spend on a feint, specially if you start to kit them out to actually do some damage.

[Cpt. Blood Donator]

You played better, sure. There is no mathhammer about this, the death company are simply better. You rolled better, or whatever. Doesn't change raw stats.

That is the point I'd like to make; it goes beyond stats. Rage is annoying as a balance point. Vanguard have no such control-exploit.

 

People rely on "what stats make what better", but superior numerics (unless extreme) don't make up for strategy. You field DC, everybody knows they're scary and they handle them accordingly. You field VV, even experienced players will write them off as a waste of points and get taken for a ride by them.

 

So, while I don't disagree that a Death Company marine and a Vanguard Vet 1v1 with identical load outs will always go to the DC marine, I do disagree strongly that the Vanguard should be written off for that reason alone.

 

It would have been true, if V.V were actually able to take take someone on a ride. They've got a 1/4 chance of wounding a marine without F.C, and if they get that or are in range of a priest, people know what they're capable of.

 

And your V.V must have been a much more expensive than the D.C ever was if you killed them in an assault, not even factoring in mathammer. Marines are really bad at killing marines, and FNP doesn't help either side.

 

There is also the matter of cost, a "good" d.c unit is 300 points, 10 D.C w. bolters, rhino and 2 powerfists. If they start getting kited, they put 20 boltershots in it's rear, which usually is enough to end a speeder or some bikes. They also hit like a hammer, but don't overkill so they can usually finish up in the opponents turn, not to mention that they can fire all those shots into whatever it is they want to charge. Vanguard can do none of that on foot.

[Morticon]

Everyone raises some good points!!

 

You cannot discount the viability of the VV.

However, with Fearless, relentless and, very importantly, WS5 not to mention built in FNP - even with the "balancer" of rage im with DC.

 

Then theres the issue of them taking up a very,very valuable fast slot.

Nah, I'll rather compensate for and mitigate rage issues than put all those costs into naked VVs.

[JamesI]

Everyone raises some good points!!

 

You cannot discount the viability of the VV.

However, with Fearless, relentless and, very importantly, WS5 not to mention built in FNP - even with the "balancer" of rage im with DC.

 

Then theres the issue of them taking up a very,very valuable fast slot.

Nah, I'll rather compensate for and mitigate rage issues than put all those costs into naked VVs.

generally, I agree. VV are best used for the HI advantage, which is workable in the BA codex thanks to DoA. In a transport, DC are usually the better choice.

[daboarder]

wow....I've been saying DC are worth their points for ages, most of you blokes didn't agree with me 6 or so months ago, I feel vindicated.

 

 

But seriously its like comparing a scalpel to a sledge, one is large and hits like a brick, the other is versatile and can kill with precision, they do the same thing differently, VV's do it using HI and DC rely on a chaplain and FC/FNP. want a really mean list take both and watch your enemy pale as his shooty squads can't shoot and his stabby squads cant stab.

[Cpt. Blood Donator]

wow....I've been saying DC are worth their points for ages, most of you blokes didn't agree with me 6 or so months ago, I feel vindicated.

 

 

But seriously its like comparing a scalpel to a sledge, one is large and hits like a brick, the other is versatile and can kill with precision, they do the same thing differently, VV's do it using HI and DC rely on a chaplain and FC/FNP. want a really mean list take both and watch your enemy pale as his shooty squads can't shoot and his stabby squads cant stab.

 

I don't think anyone has ever had any issues with D.C without jump packs, it's that increase that doesn't make any sense.