Gentlemanloser Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 I'm holding my hands up. Originally, I looked at this upgrade and thought "nice!", but in play, I hardly ever took it. It seemed like too much to splurge on. 20 points per Squad. Expensive. I always tried to shave points off and squeeze in a few more bodies. But I take it all back. Psybolt Ammo on Storm Bolters is awesome. Hitting on 3's, and wounding on 3's (or 2's versus GEQ) gives Storm Bolters that touch more effect and dominance on the field. It also helps with facing transports. And to top it, is a GK unique thing and playstyle. Psybolt Ammo. Don't leave home without it! :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231044-pysbolt-ammunition/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chengar Qordath Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 I have a real fondness for psybolts as well; unless it's a Purifier squad running 4 psycannons/incinerators, I always take them on my power-armor squads. As long as you have 8+ stormbolters shooting, the psybolts will usually be worth their cost. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231044-pysbolt-ammunition/#findComment-2778341 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrotherWasted Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 I'm waiting for someone to come in and say that Psybolts are worthless because wounding on 3s doesn't offer any significantly higher number of kills, statistically. Psybolts are mandatory for all 10-man squads that do not have more than 2 special weapons. Really not going to budge me on that one. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231044-pysbolt-ammunition/#findComment-2778356 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 I'm waiting for someone to come in and say that Psybolts are worthless because wounding on 3s doesn't offer any significantly higher number of kills, statistically. :huh: ok I am not a math person , but rolling 10-12x +3 to wound will always be a better then 10-12x +4 . even againt meq with their power armor saves it is more wounds. against stuff like orks or stealers it is even better . not to mention that fact that str5 can hurt rhino class stuff[ 5th ed mecha edition 60%+ people playing meq armies] and a str 4 weapon has 0 chance to do that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231044-pysbolt-ammunition/#findComment-2778367 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shyft Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 Yeah, looking at it BrotherWasted; I'm not sure if my primary paladin squad should bother with psybolts, I only have 5 stormbolters in the squad of 10 guys. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231044-pysbolt-ammunition/#findComment-2778368 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chengar Qordath Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 Just for the heck of it, let's see what the math is. vs MEQ Psybolts: 20 shots, 13.33 hits, 8.88 wounds, 2.96 kills Normal: 20 shots, 13.33 hits, 6.66 wounds, 2.22 kills I would say that's a pretty healthy difference, and against anything without power armor the difference expands. On top of that, there's the fact that psybolts allow you to seriously threaten AV 10 and cause trouble for AV 11, and also double your chances of wounding the average Toughness 6 Monstrous Creature. Not a bad but at all. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231044-pysbolt-ammunition/#findComment-2778372 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 I always use psybolt ammo. You can glance stuff like rhinos on top of everything else. G :mellow: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231044-pysbolt-ammunition/#findComment-2778452 Share on other sites More sharing options...
worloch Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 Well, if Psybolts were free everyone would agree they were good, so it is really question of 'Are they worth the point cost for what they do'. :( 10 storm bolters in a squad makes it 2 points per; most people would agree that is a good price point but it isn't a common config. (Ex: 10 GK's w/ no upgrades) 8 storm bolters in a squad makes it 2.5 per; still pretty good, and probably where people see the most use/value (Ex: 10 GK's w/ 2 Psycannons and Rhino) 4 storm bolters in a squad makes it 5 per; not really a good price point (Ex: 5 GK's w/ Psycannon and Razorback) On the other hand, some scenario's are too good to pass up in my opinion - Rifleman Dread config, for example. Total steal there. I also like them on Razorbacks w/ Heavy Bolters. St 6 can be a good break point in some scenario's, and the 3 shots twin-linked at 36" gives us an edge. Worked really well for me against my friends DE, as St 6 Insta-kills To 3, meaning that his Feel No Pain from Pain Tokens was lost. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231044-pysbolt-ammunition/#findComment-2778664 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor Fox Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 Quick and dirty comparison... how much more afraid of a Space Marine with a Pulse Rifle would you be than a Space Marine with a Bolter? Now double that Pulse Rifles range on the move... and make it an assault weapon. Now you have a proper mental appreciation for psybolt ammo. I know I love Tau weaponry more than Imperial weaponry, and now our Grey Knights can rock Tau level firepower with overall better effectiveness. Gotta love it! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231044-pysbolt-ammunition/#findComment-2779149 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitefireinferno Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 Quick and dirty comparison... how much more afraid of a Space Marine with a Pulse Rifle would you be than a Space Marine with a Bolter? Now double that Pulse Rifles range on the move... and make it an assault weapon. Now you have a proper mental appreciation for psybolt ammo. I know I love Tau weaponry more than Imperial weaponry, and now our Grey Knights can rock Tau level firepower with overall better effectiveness. Gotta love it! Heh it's funny you put it that way in my eyes it just makes a army of ours even more useless at the only thing it can do... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231044-pysbolt-ammunition/#findComment-2779451 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calvinus Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 I'm waiting for someone to come in and say that Psybolts are worthless because wounding on 3s doesn't offer any significantly higher number of kills, statistically. Psybolts are mandatory for all 10-man squads that do not have more than 2 special weapons. Really not going to budge me on that one. 1: I support psybolts, please don't flame me :P . 2: Since you posted this EVERYONE has secretly been waiting for SOMEONE to post the math. 3: The usual tradeoff on "is it worth it?" is based on the idea that you have to get those 20 points from somewhere and you normally are choosing between taking an extra body in the squad OR taking psybolt ammo, but not both. If everyone could include a 10 man squad with psybolt ammo then we wouldn't be having this conversation at all. But since we can't, here's the math v. GEQ and v. MEQ: --------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5 storm bolters w/psy-ammo (winner) v. GEQ: 5.55 wounds v. MEQ: 4.44 6 storm bolters w/o psy-ammo v. GEQ: 5.33 wounds v. MEQ: 4.00 wounds --------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6 storm bolters w/psy-ammo (winner) v. GEQ: 6.66 wounds v. MEQ: 5.33 7 storm bolters w/o psy-ammo v. GEQ: 6.22 wounds v. MEQ: 4.66 wounds --------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7 storm bolters w/psy-ammo (winner) v. GEQ: 7.78 wounds v. MEQ: 6.22 8 storm bolters w/o psy-ammo v. GEQ: 7.11 wounds v. MEQ: 5.33 wounds --------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8 storm bolters w/psy-ammo (winner) v. GEQ: 8.89 wounds v. MEQ: 7.11 9 storm bolters w/o psy-ammo v. GEQ: 8.00 wounds v. MEQ: 6.00 wounds --------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9 storm bolters w/psy-ammo (winner) v. GEQ: 10.00 wounds v. MEQ: 8.00 10 storm bolters w/o psy-ammo v. GEQ: 8.89 wounds v. MEQ: 6.67 wounds --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Psy-ammo wins every time*! :D You get the (GEQ) break-even point ff you had either a strike squad of 5 w/psy-ammo or 6 w/o psy-ammo and they took a wound (brining you to 4 w/ or 5 w/o) and you would find yourself in this situation: --------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4 storm bolters w/psy-ammo v. GEQ: 4.44 wounds v. MEQ: 3.56 5 storm bolters w/o psy-ammo v. GEQ: 4.44 wounds v. MEQ: 3.33 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Another man down gets you to this: --------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3 storm bolters w/psy-ammo v. GEQ: 3.33 wounds v. MEQ: 2.67 4 storm bolters w/o psy-ammo v. GEQ: 3.56 wounds v. MEQ: 2.67 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- This last example is also the same math for running a 5-man purifier squad with 2 psycannons, comparing either adding psybolts or an extra purifier w/ a stormbolter. Naturally, the math gets worse as you take even more casualties. Clearly, "Psybolts are worthless because wounding on 3s doesn't offer any significantly higher number of kills, statistically." :) Now, will someone do the math comparing taking psybolts or a brotherhood banner or 5 mastercrafted weapons on varying squad sizes of paladins? :) * "every time" refers to as often as you roll a statistically average dice roll. Mathhammer is not always compatible with reality. Mathhammer is not intended to treat, diagnose, or cure any bad tactics or luck. Ask your FLGS if Mathhammer is right for you. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231044-pysbolt-ammunition/#findComment-2779613 Share on other sites More sharing options...
number6 Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 Nobody is questioning that Str 5 will garner more wounds than Str 4. This will always be true! :) The question is: Is paying for the upgrade efficient for the army list? The answer is not always "Yes". Sometimes, there really is a better place to spend the points. It's not like Str 4 stormbolters are "bad"! :) Is the modest increase in wounding worth the upgrade, or can you make your list stronger by, say, paying for upgrades or models in other units? It's more halberds on purifiers, for example. There are no absolutes to list-building with the GK codex! Options are only "good", "better", or "best" in the context of the final army list. If taking psybolts on 2 Striker units and an Interceptor unit costs me that personal teleporter upgrade on the dreadknight I feel like the list needs, guess what? Psybolts aren't worth it. This is the only kind of comparison and decision-making that makes any sense with respect to discussing the worth of upgrades like psybolts and the various grenade options. Nobody questions the utility of these things. The point is: you take what the list needs, and as cool and useful as psybolts are, sometimes the list needs other things more. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231044-pysbolt-ammunition/#findComment-2779672 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 I take psybolt ammo for every unit in my Draigowing army (not incl. ICs). The equivalent of heavy bolters is worth it to me. G :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231044-pysbolt-ammunition/#findComment-2779680 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor Fox Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 In sheer economic terms... the question is "Is the Opportunity Cost of taking Psybolt Ammunition worth it in this particular iteration of an army list?" Yes, most often the psybolt ammo is the cost of an additional body, but in a larger sense number6 is on the money. Psybolt ammo taken en masse begins to have a large cost. Three squads worth is 60 points roughly, which is the cost of say, a razorback. Some lists would rather have the razorback, some players wouldn't consider that a worthwhile trade. Edit: That being said, Calvinus, I loved your methodology there. I found it particularly enlightening, thank you for the work! Mathhammer is a useful tool to aid analysis. It is additional information used to help make a decision, but ultimately value is in the eyes of the beholder. If one person feels razorbacks are never worth it and rhinos always are, no amount of mathhammer showing additional kills generated by the razorback will sway that persons mind. Where I find mathhammer to be useful to me, is in showing me the effectiveness of weapon A versus weapon B, to help me decide which one will be more effective in what I want to accomplish with the unit. It's not a way to generate the answer... it's an additional tool to help you look at the problem in a new way. As far as Tau shooting being not all that... ask an Ork, Guardsmen, or Tyrannid player if they'd rather be shot by bolters or pulse rifles and I bet they have an opinion :) It's not a huge upgrade, it wont turn our army into an instant win.. but it will always generate a positive overall result. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231044-pysbolt-ammunition/#findComment-2779681 Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedemptionNL Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 Nobody is questioning that Str 5 will garner more wounds than Str 4. This will always be true! :huh: Not against T2! :ermm: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231044-pysbolt-ammunition/#findComment-2779833 Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordOfRuin Posted June 4, 2011 Share Posted June 4, 2011 Guess that means psybolt ammo ftw.... :blink: I always take the psybolt ammo upgrade when I'm running large squads, makes all the difference to my shooting phase. :cuss Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231044-pysbolt-ammunition/#findComment-2781721 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giru Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 Hail Brothers! Forgive a Neophyte his ignorance: would splitting a squad into two combat squads affect the choice of whether or not to take Psybolt Ammunition? (i.e. splitting a 10 man squad into two smaller squads negates the positive effect of the upgrade?) Kind regards, Giru Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231044-pysbolt-ammunition/#findComment-2820037 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 Both gets it. Combat squads works very well for GK in general. G :rolleyes: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231044-pysbolt-ammunition/#findComment-2820076 Share on other sites More sharing options...
number6 Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 All of the storm bolter-wielding members of the combat squads would get psybolt ammo. If that sounds good to you, then no, combat squads shouldn't have any bearing on whether you purchase psybolts or not. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231044-pysbolt-ammunition/#findComment-2820079 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted July 15, 2011 Author Share Posted July 15, 2011 As for the cost, should we be looking at Psybolt SB ammo versus having an extra GK? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231044-pysbolt-ammunition/#findComment-2820216 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Something Wycked Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 I personally don't take Psybolt ammo on less than 10 man squads. Then again, I don't take squads in sizes less than 10 ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231044-pysbolt-ammunition/#findComment-2820219 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor Fox Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 As for the cost, should we be looking at Psybolt SB ammo versus having an extra GK? Check post # 11 in this thread :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231044-pysbolt-ammunition/#findComment-2820405 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted July 16, 2011 Author Share Posted July 16, 2011 Doh! ^_^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231044-pysbolt-ammunition/#findComment-2820466 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ValourousHeart Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 So it seems that the consensus is that psybolt ammo is a great buy for the basic GK units... but not so much for Paladins and Purifiers, who get extra special weapons. My math-hammer isn't that strong, but I guess a psycannon vs psybolts comparison will always go toward the psycannon being the better option? My main question is, should I take my Draigowing list back to concept in order to get psybolts in, our just leave it maximizing bodies and psycannons. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231044-pysbolt-ammunition/#findComment-2821063 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrotherWasted Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 Bodies and Psycannons in Draigowing. For units that can have 4 Psycannons per 10 men, Psybolts aren't really needed. It's all about what the majority of shots will be from your squad: If the majority of shots will be Storm Bolters (For example, Troops, Interceptors, or CC Purifiers), take Psybolts. If the majority will be Psycannons (i.e. squads where you can have 4 psycannons per 10), don't bother with Psybolts. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/231044-pysbolt-ammunition/#findComment-2821116 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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