Kayvaan + Korsarro + Termy Assault Sqd + DT LR = OK?

[dizzy-xc]

If I stick Korsorro and Shrike into a termy squad with a dedicated transport land raider, can they infiltrate? That'd be 18" away from enemy units with an assault move of 12" + 2" Disembark + D6" (Fleet Run) + 6" Charge = pretty nasty 21"-26" move...

 

EDIT: 26" max move oops. Listed 27. Fixed

[Seahawk]

The Infiltrate special rule says no you cannot.

 

"If a unit with this ability is deployed inside a transport vehicle, it cannot infiltrate." (p 75)

[greatcrusade08]

If I stick Korsorro and Shrike into a termy squad with a dedicated transport land raider, can they infiltrate? That'd be 18" away from enemy units with an assault move of 12" + 2" Disembark + D6" (Fleet Run) + 6" Charge = pretty nasty 21"-27" move...

 

as seahawk said, no they cant.. they could outflank though.

tbh 800 points on one unit is insane, even thought the unit is powerful in assault it would get clobbered in ther shooting phase

[dizzy-xc]

with outflank, they'd be able to move unto the board and assault an enemy unit 21"-26" away utilizing Furious Charge, Hit and Run and of course soak it up with plenty of Storm Shields. The LR would be a seperate unit... but yeah, that's a lotta eggs in one basket, but damn, it's got enough mojo to REALLY make the enemy pay.

[awfulawful]

You should probably add a Techmarine too, just in case the LR needs repairs.

[Morollan]

Doesn't Shrike have a jump pack and therefore cannot go in a Land Raider?

[thade]

You should probably add a Techmarine too, just in case the LR needs repairs.

 

Before I switched to the BA dex (where the techmarine no longer has the IC rule) I used to pack a techmarine/MotF into the LR with the vanguard all the time. Not only is it handy to fix that LR on the fly, but he's a mean s.o.b. with a 2+ save and a servo-harness.

[ShinyRhino]

Doesn't Shrike have a jump pack and therefore cannot go in a Land Raider?

 

Correct. The whole scenario breaks as soon as you add Shrike.

[thade]

Correct. The whole scenario breaks as soon as you add Shrike.

 

Ha! Very funny we all missed that. :) *embarrassed*. I was content with the whole "Can't infiltrate in a transport." deal.

 

Which is GOOD because an INFILTRATING LAND RAIDER is PREPOSTEROUS.

[dizzy-xc]

Yup. Missed Jump Infantry on Shrike. So With just Korsorro, that'd make a 20" charge outflank move with the LR. But here's a question about Korsorro's wargear... Says he is Infantry, and his bike is wargear and nowhere does it say it changes his unit type. It says it follows all the rules for bikes in the BRB. And nowhere there does it say what unit type a bike is. So far all I se is that the bike is wargear and doesnt modify his unit type. So during the movement phase, he will move out of coherency with the Termy Squad to make his move.

 

So sticking him in a LR with a termy squad gives him the outflank ability and allows him to bust out of the LR riding Moondrakkan with 12" Outflank + 2" disembark + D6" Fleet move + 6" Charge = 21"-26" total assault move.

 

And if this is the case, then there are plenty of other HQ units that can accompany him with bikes as wargear as well, although they wouldnt get the fleet move like Moondrakkan allows.

 

That's nuts. I'm totally gonna try this. That would be hilarious.

[greatcrusade08]

Khan cannot go in a LR riding his bike.. he has to be on foot.

[dizzy-xc]

That's not what I read.

[greatcrusade08]

That's not what I read.

 

Really?

bikes cant go in transports, once you put khan on bike you have to obey the bike rules

[thade]

That's not what I read.

 

Really?

bikes cant go in transports, once you put khan on bike you have to obey the bike rules

 

Yeah, that's a little weird. Only Infantry can embark onto Transports unless otherwise specified. Bikes are no longer Infantry; they are a sub-type of Infantry called "Bike Infantry". As such, no transports for them.

 

As a matter of precedent, were it truly the case bike marines could embark into LRs, don't you think Ravenwing players would have been doing it for years? :ermm:

[Spear of Achilles]

Drop shrike and add Tiburius...that way you can reroll reserves, then he can gate/force dome and smite (or The Avenger) after the reserves all come in....

[thade]

Drop shrike and add Tiburius...that way you can reroll reserves, then he can gate/force dome and smite (or The Avenger) after the reserves all come in....

 

You probably mean Tigurius.

[ShinyRhino]

Once you put Khan on his bike, his unit type changes from Infantry to Bike. Bikes/jetbikes is a completely seprate unit type, with its own rules and section of the BRB. The only transport Bikers can ride in are Super Heavies in Apocalypse.

 

Tiggy combined with Khan would be pretty fun. You can even mitigate his fragility by leaving him in the Land Raider while Khan and Friends disembark and charge on arrival. Pop Null Zone from inside the Land Raider, and there isn't much your Assault Terminators with Khan can't murder.

[DarkGuard]

Yup. Missed Jump Infantry on Shrike. So With just Korsorro, that'd make a 20" charge outflank move with the LR. But here's a question about Korsorro's wargear... Says he is Infantry, and his bike is wargear and nowhere does it say it changes his unit type. It says it follows all the rules for bikes in the BRB. And nowhere there does it say what unit type a bike is. So far all I se is that the bike is wargear and doesnt modify his unit type. So during the movement phase, he will move out of coherency with the Termy Squad to make his move.

 

So sticking him in a LR with a termy squad gives him the outflank ability and allows him to bust out of the LR riding Moondrakkan with 12" Outflank + 2" disembark + D6" Fleet move + 6" Charge = 21"-26" total assault move.

 

And if this is the case, then there are plenty of other HQ units that can accompany him with bikes as wargear as well, although they wouldnt get the fleet move like Moondrakkan allows.

 

That's nuts. I'm totally gonna try this. That would be hilarious.

 

I'm sorry, why are still having this debate now? I don't know about anyone else, but recently I'm tired of people trying to exploit every little thing in Games Workshop rules. The Space Marine bike rules quite clearly say that a Space Marine on bike follows all the rules for bikes. Bikes cannot embark in transports. Doesn't matter if technically Khan's still infantry, he's a bike model now he's got his bike and cannot embark in a vehicle. I'll be very surprised if your opponent will let you do this, I know that I wouldn't. Trying to argue it is completely against the spirit of the game and all common sense, and will most likely swiftly result in your opponent leaving the table.

[dizzy-xc]

Yup. Missed Jump Infantry on Shrike. So With just Korsorro, that'd make a 20" charge outflank move with the LR. But here's a question about Korsorro's wargear... Says he is Infantry, and his bike is wargear and nowhere does it say it changes his unit type. It says it follows all the rules for bikes in the BRB. And nowhere there does it say what unit type a bike is. So far all I se is that the bike is wargear and doesnt modify his unit type. So during the movement phase, he will move out of coherency with the Termy Squad to make his move.

 

So sticking him in a LR with a termy squad gives him the outflank ability and allows him to bust out of the LR riding Moondrakkan with 12" Outflank + 2" disembark + D6" Fleet move + 6" Charge = 21"-26" total assault move.

 

And if this is the case, then there are plenty of other HQ units that can accompany him with bikes as wargear as well, although they wouldnt get the fleet move like Moondrakkan allows.

 

That's nuts. I'm totally gonna try this. That would be hilarious.

 

I'm sorry, why are still having this debate now? I don't know about anyone else, but recently I'm tired of people trying to exploit every little thing in Games Workshop rules. The Space Marine bike rules quite clearly say that a Space Marine on bike follows all the rules for bikes. Bikes cannot embark in transports. Doesn't matter if technically Khan's still infantry, he's a bike model now he's got his bike and cannot embark in a vehicle. I'll be very surprised if your opponent will let you do this, I know that I wouldn't. Trying to argue it is completely against the spirit of the game and all common sense, and will most likely swiftly result in your opponent leaving the table.

 

What exploit? And if 'people' don't argue for/against these things, then there will always be gray areas where a dice off or fist fight is the only answer. So it's always good we get a place to discuss the RAW/RAI.

 

Now to argue this point, and I'm not saying I'm explicitly FOR it, perhaps it's the comedic 1st time prank, or devil's advocate approach I'm taking, or perhaps I only play a match when I can use absurd bizarre rules that are legal RAW, but go against everything RAI, in order to get my kicks, but who cares about my motives, I'm only interested in the RAW and how they are interpreted.

 

Now under Korsarro's codex description it says Moondrakken is a space marine bike and to see page 100 for details. So going to page 100 of the SM Codex it says the Space Marine Bike follows all the rules for bikes as described in the 40k rulebook. So going to the rulebook page 53, it says nowhere that the Unit Type is Bike. So the last place to look is the Codex army list entry where it says his unit type is infantry (which means he can join other infantry squads as an independant character) and Moondrakken is simply a Wargear option. No where does it say buying Moondrakken changes his unit type.

 

So unless there is errata, or a FAQ on this, then RAW he gets to buy Moondrakken as wargear and remain infantry as I cannot see it any other way. This also applies to other HQ units as their unit types are also not altered when upgrading to a bike. Strange it would be to see a Captain on a bike and tactical squad all disembark from a Rhino, but that is what I am getting here.

 

*****

 

Here is another issue I'm seeing for deploying Shrike in a Land Raider and outflanking him... It says under jump infantry that if they get a Drop Pod as a Dedicated tansport for free, they drop their Jump Packs to count as Infantry. By the same token, can Shrike not also drop his jump pack if he has joined a jump pack squad with a free Drop Pod? And by extension can he not also drop his jump pack to count as infantry when embarking into a vehicle when attached to a squad that purchased a Dedicated Transport like a Rhino or Razorback or LR?

[DarkGuard]

If you want to play silly rules and all that with your friends than that's fine. GW have made it perfectly clear that the first rule of the game is fun. I admit it would be hilarious to see Khan riding Moondraken down the Land Raider's assault ramp, but in a pick up game I wouldn't be too please. But if we'd discussed it beforehand and thought it suitably hilarious I'd be more than happy for you to not only ride Moondraken out of the tank, but his Command squad as well.

 

But this is an Official Rules forum. I'm afraid that the issue on Bikes actually being Infantry isn't an oversight by GW, but, like the definition of Daemons, more likely to be common sense. Common sense, in that if you're on a Bike, your unit type is Bike. And that's fine by me, some things do need clear rules for it, but many issues that people bring up can be solved by using common sense. IMO common sense tells me that if you act like a bike, you are a bike. Your common sense may tell you different, as you say there's nothing that actually says you turn into a bike, but I'm going to play it that you do.

 

As for the second question, Shrike does not have an option to drop his jump pack, and must therefore keep it. This means he stays as jump infantry, and may not be deployed in Drop Pods or embark in vehicles. Remember, with the way 40K is written, it will tell you if you do something. Just because it hasn't told you that can't do something doesn't mean you can do it.

[greatcrusade08]

So unless there is errata, or a FAQ on this, then RAW he gets to buy Moondrakken as wargear and remain infantry as I cannot see it any other way. This also applies to other HQ units as their unit types are also not altered when upgrading to a bike. Strange it would be to see a Captain on a bike and tactical squad all disembark from a Rhino, but that is what I am getting here.

 

Actually no.... if he is infantry he only moves 6" and wouldnt receive a toughness bonus.. you cant have it both ways.

he rides a bike, in the BRB it specifically says bikes cannot travel within transports, i dont have the direct quote at the moment but it is in there.

 

Here is another issue I'm seeing for deploying Shrike in a Land Raider and outflanking him... It says under jump infantry that if they get a Drop Pod as a Dedicated tansport for free, they drop their Jump Packs to count as Infantry. By the same token, can Shrike not also drop his jump pack if he has joined a jump pack squad with a free Drop Pod? And by extension can he not also drop his jump pack to count as infantry when embarking into a vehicle when attached to a squad that purchased a Dedicated Transport like a Rhino or Razorback or LR?

Shrike doesnt have an option to remove his jump pack, you canot use rules for one unit and apply it to another

[dizzy-xc]

Actually no.... if he is infantry he only moves 6" and wouldnt receive a toughness bonus.. you cant have it both ways.

he rides a bike, in the BRB it specifically says bikes cannot travel within transports, i dont have the direct quote at the moment but it is in there.

 

Thats NOT what the rules say.

 

It says under Transport Capacity page 66 BRB that independant characters can be transported in a vehicle as long as they count as infantry. Bikes page 53 BRB it says under Additional Protection that bike riders get a +1 Toughness because of their bikes. In addition, they have different rules for movement, fallback, assault and shooting. According to the Bikes page 53 BRB, no where does it state they are Bikes as a Unit Type. Under Korsarro's entry his wargear option is just that, a wargear option that DOES NOT state his unit type changes to Bikes from Infantry. Furthermore, page 51 BRB under Unit Types it specifically states that 'Except for the rules detailed in this section for each unit type, these units follow the same rules as infantry.'

[greatcrusade08]

Thats NOT what the rules say.

 

It says under Transport Capacity page 66 BRB that independant characters can be transported in a vehicle as long as they count as infantry. Bikes page 53 BRB it says under Additional Protection that bike riders get a +1 Toughness because of their bikes. In addition, they have different rules for movement, fallback, assault and shooting. According to the Bikes page 53 BRB, no where does it state they are Bikes as a Unit Type. Under Korsarro's entry his wargear option is just that, a wargear option that DOES NOT state his unit type changes to Bikes from Infantry. Furthermore, page 51 BRB under Unit Types it specifically states that 'Except for the rules detailed in this section for each unit type, these units follow the same rules as infantry.'

 

your taking this argument to the extreme to try and win some kind of RAW case..

trouble is its nonsense of the highest order.. if someone tried to argue this with me, id probably laugh to begin with but if they pressed the matter they would get a barrage of choice 4 letter anglo-saxon combined with a faceplant with a BRB.

 

SM bikers have unit type bike.. characters have unit type infantry... however when you give them upgrades you have to take whatever rules come with them.

it says in the BRB that bikes cannot board transports.

your argument is that you can have all the benefits of the bike, but none of the negatives.. to me thats cheating.

 

Its RAW that bikes cannot go on transports, your trying to bypass that with shenanigans about unit type not changing with wargear.. but thats not true, if a captain takes a jump pack he becomes jump infantry (check the section on JI), if he takes a bike he must therefore become a biker

 

Its a simple matter, does he have a bike? yes

then hes a biker..

that was easy, next question please

 

edit: by your argument i can have a command squad on bikes in a LR.. you should really rethink the logic behind your argument

[Frosty the Pyro]

Its an unfortunate truth, the "bike" wargear does not change the unit type to bike, it simply lets them fallow the rules of bikes. Twelve inch movement, relentless, and increased toughness, treating difficult terain as dangerous terain are all in the rules of bikes, , but the rules of bikes do not prevent them from entering a transport. It's the rules of transports that only allow infantry to embark (with the specificication that jump infantry are not infantry), which technicly a model that has taken the bike wargear still is, because the wargear never changes its unit type. Its simply a more extreme version of the chaos space marines that took the wings wargear are not jump infantry and can thus embark.

 

 

That said anyone who uses that should be slapped, as its the worst form of rules lawyers. (of course I hold the same stance on wings so *shrug*)

 

 

Its RAW that bikes cannot go on transports, your trying to bypass that with shenanigans about unit type not changing with wargear.. but thats not true, if a captain takes a jump pack he becomes jump infantry (check the section on JI), if he takes a bike he must therefore become a biker

 

unfortunatly the only thing you said in this statement that is true is the jump pack makes you become jump infantry. It is not RAW that bikes cannot go in transports, it is RAW that infantry can embark, there is no rule that says bikes cant embark, they simply lack a rule that lets them. The problem with that is the bike wargear, in typical GW attention to detail, never changes the unit type.

[greatcrusade08]

of course the whole argument assumes that some things need to be stated, if a SM rides a bike hes a biker..

people are free to argue some weird RAW long winded argument about unit types and wargear upgrades but it will never fly over the tabletop.

 

people shouldnt argue these things unless they are playable and practical, being correct is not the same as being right

 

It is not RAW that bikes cannot go in transports

actually it kinda is, whichever way you view the issue only infantry can embark, so bikers couldnt..

i dont have my rulebook with me which is preventing me from quoting actual rules, which is why my arguments are somewhat vague.

 

can someone please quote the part of the BRB that defines what infantry is