Kayvaan + Korsarro + Termy Assault Sqd + DT LR = OK?

[Something Wycked]

Amen, brother. :D

 

[/thread] :)

[dizzy-xc]

Not so fast... heh.

 

Where are you guys reading where his unit type changes to bike? I'm sorry but I dont see it. If you look at jumppacks, it clearly says the unit type changes. But not with bike. The codex defers to the BRB for clarification. And following the rules for bikes is not the same as changing a unit type. This is not about RAI. I think we all agree it's ridiculous. But RAW, the HQ and command squads can take bikes and embark because no where does it say they stop being infantry.

 

Edit. If you want the clear cut way GW changes a unit type look no further than JumpPacks as wargear. It's description clearly calls for the unit type change. Further clarity, read Space Wolves Codex Thunderwolves. It clearly states for the unit type to be changed. But not so for bike wargear. Sorry guys. Not my fault GW dropped the ball.

[Isiah]

C'mon dizzy-xc, bikes aren't allowed in transports. Don't beat this dead horse any longer than it's already been beaten.

[dizzy-xc]

I know that. But an HQ unit that buys a wargear bike doesnt have his unit type of Infantry changed. What the rules should have read in the BRB under Bikes is that any unit with or upgraded to a bike changes their unit type to Bike. I think we ALL agree with that. But it doesnt.

 

So RAW its legal, unfortunately. If you just dont want to face the fact that GW dropped the ball and you want to institute your collective common sense rules upon the game, that's perfectly cool with me. But where does arbitrary ruling over RAW in favor of RAI begin and end? B&C has a definition page for these acronyms so we know when to use RAW and RAI in the proper context. But seems like in this case why bother, right?

 

Edit: This also smacks of a situation where a mistake is discovered in the BRB and no one seems to mind that GW made it. I'll be sending a written letter to GW explaining how cool it was when I 1st saw this tactic used on the tabletop and ask them if they will clarify it for 6th edition maybe. But all you guys seem to want to do is gloss it over. Sorry, that aint my style. I try and really figure out the RAW and interpret them properly so the game is played correctly. When I run into crap like this, I would expect GW to amend the mistake, not have the community decide that GW is not to blame and the power gamers are. That's the wrong approach, imo.

[Isiah]

I know that. But an HQ unit that buys a wargear bike doesnt have his unit type of Infantry changed. What the rules should have read in the BRB under Bikes is that any unit with or upgraded to a bike changes their unit type to Bike. I think we ALL agree with that. But it doesnt.

 

The fact remains that an Infantry unit is defined on p4 as being 'foot soldiers'. On p5 Bikes and jetbikes are defined as riders 'mounted on a variety of bikes or jetbikes'. The very fact that the dude has a bike turns him into a Bike unit by those definitions. Unless of course he's pushing it. But wait – riders can't dismount from bikes.

 

Please don't presume anything about me or the facts I might or might not want to face. 40K isn't a perfect world by a long stretch. I recognise perfectly well its shortcomings, and so do others here, when I/we see them – however painful that might be to my (or our collective) RAW sensibilites :cuss.

 

By all means send your letter in, can you post it in this topic please. And I'd love to see what answer you get from GW on this. If it does make an FAQ then awesome sauce :).

 

Cheers

I

[dizzy-xc]

I know that. But an HQ unit that buys a wargear bike doesnt have his unit type of Infantry changed. What the rules should have read in the BRB under Bikes is that any unit with or upgraded to a bike changes their unit type to Bike. I think we ALL agree with that. But it doesnt.

 

The fact remains that an Infantry unit is defined on p4 as being 'foot soldiers'. On p5 Bikes and jetbikes are defined as riders 'mounted on a variety of bikes or jetbikes'. The very fact that the dude has a bike turns him into a Bike unit by those definitions. Unless of course he's pushing it. But wait – riders can't dismount from bikes.

 

Please don't presume anything about me or the facts I might or might not want to face. 40K isn't a perfect world by a long stretch. I recognise perfectly well its shortcomings, and so do others here, when I/we see them – however painful that might be to my (or our collective) RAW sensibilites :cuss.

 

By all means send your letter in, can you post it in this topic please. And I'd love to see what answer you get from GW on this. If it does make an FAQ then awesome sauce :jaw:.

 

Cheers

I

 

You are quite obstinate in your flawed stance on this issue. I applaud your efforts to argue your point, but unfortunately by precedent they fall flat.

 

A FAQ about Wings in the Chaos Codex which has the exact type of wordage as are given Bikes in the Codex; "Models equipped with wings move in the same way as Jump Infantry, as described in the BRB." Compare to Space Marine Bikes: "Models equipped with Space Marine Bikes follow all the rules for bikes as described in the BRB." The FAQ states that Wings do not change the Unit Type to Jump Infantry. They remain Infantry and are able to embark into transports.

 

Short list of Infantry Unit Types that wargear descriptions specifically call for Unit Type changes or other special rules:

1. Thunderwolves. Change to unit type cavalry.

2. Jump Packs. Change to unit type Jump Infantry.

3. Mount of Slanesh. Change to unit type Cavalry.

4. Disc of Tzeentch. Change to unit type Jump Infantry.

5. Juggernought of Khorne. This model cannot be carried in transports just as if it were cavalry.

6. Palaquin of Nurgle. Cannot be carried in Rhino, but can be in LR but counts as two models.

7. Autarch. Change unit type to Jetbike if has jetbike, or Jump Infantry if has Swoop wings or Warp Jump Generator.

8. Farseer. Change to Jetbike if has jetbike.

9. Warlocks. Change to Jetbike if has jetbike.

 

Notice that Bikes are NOT listed. Nor are Wings. BOTH have identical wordage in referring to the BRB and DO NOT call for the unit type to be changed. Further, on page 5 of the BRB, as per your argument, you claim that 'by definition' under bikes, because it says 'units are riders mounted' that HQ or Command Squads buying Bike Wargear should have their unit type of Infantry changed to Bikes, BUT under Jump Infantry on page 5 of the BRB it lists Wings as being Jump Infantry, yet, GW specifically states in a FAQ that their unit type doesnt change and that they are NOT Jump Infantry, their Unit type stays the same, Infantry, and are able to embark. Why would you think the opposite would apply to Bikes despite them both having the same wordage in deferring to the BRB? Your argument doesnt follow logic as established by precedent.

 

GW's direction to 'Follow the rules of a unit type entry' doesnt not equal change unit type, sir. GW has been very specific about it except in two cases that I know of: Wings and Bikes. Wings were a common issue that was often argued and prompted a FAQ from GW. Bikes, despite being in the exact same situation as Wings has not stirred such fiery debate probably because it is such an uncommon situation to arise. Do you know of anyone personally who has asked GW for clarification on this? I dont. But I will because I dont like the prospect of 7 marines charging out of a rhino on bikes.

[Something Wycked]

Okay dizzy. You're obviously right and everyone else is obviously wrong.

 

Go try to load bikes in a transport in a game against a player who isn't brand new to 40k and see what happens.

 

Prediction: you won't have very many people willing to play games against you after word gets around you'll attempt to rules lawyer bikes into transports. :cuss

[SeattleDV8]

You are quite obstinate in your flawed stance on this issue. I applaud your efforts to argue your point, but unfortunately by precedent they fall flat.

 

A FAQ about Wings in the Chaos Codex which has the exact type of wordage as are given Bikes in the Codex; "Models equipped with wings move in the same way as Jump Infantry, as described in the BRB." Compare to Space Marine Bikes: "Models equipped with Space Marine Bikes follow all the rules for bikes as described in the BRB." The FAQ states that Wings do not change the Unit Type to Jump Infantry. They remain Infantry and are able to embark into transports.

 

Sorry, but the two examples are not the same.

'Models equipped with wings move in the same way as Jump Infantry...'

then you have

'Models equipped with Space Marine Bikes Models follow all the rules for bikes ....'

See the difference?

Wings only change the way a model 'moves', nothing in the movement rules disallow a model from embarking in a transport.

Where as the bike quote tells us to 'follow all the rules for bikes'. The rules for bikes do not allow us to embark into transports.

You might have a very weak RAW point, but not one worth trying to push.

And under no case should you try and play it that way.

[dizzy-xc]

You are quite obstinate in your flawed stance on this issue. I applaud your efforts to argue your point, but unfortunately by precedent they fall flat.

 

A FAQ about Wings in the Chaos Codex which has the exact type of wordage as are given Bikes in the Codex; "Models equipped with wings move in the same way as Jump Infantry, as described in the BRB." Compare to Space Marine Bikes: "Models equipped with Space Marine Bikes follow all the rules for bikes as described in the BRB." The FAQ states that Wings do not change the Unit Type to Jump Infantry. They remain Infantry and are able to embark into transports.

 

Sorry, but the two examples are not the same.

'Models equipped with wings move in the same way as Jump Infantry...'

then you have

'Models equipped with Space Marine Bikes Models follow all the rules for bikes ....'

See the difference?

Wings only change the way a model 'moves', nothing in the movement rules disallow a model from embarking in a transport.

Where as the bike quote tells us to 'follow all the rules for bikes'. The rules for bikes do not allow us to embark into transports.

You might have a very weak RAW point, but not one worth trying to push.

And under no case should you try and play it that way.

 

I see that difference, yes. But even still the Bike entry doesnt say to change the unit type. What is at issue is simple. Does the Wargear of Bike change unit type. The answeris no and always has been no. No one can quote anywhere in the codex, or any other codex or in the BRB where it says to change Infantry to Bike when getting this wargear. Sorry.

 

As Frosty put it:

 

Its an unfortunate truth, the "bike" wargear does not change the unit type to bike, it simply lets them fallow the rules of bikes. Twelve inch movement, relentless, and increased toughness, treating difficult terain as dangerous terain are all in the rules of bikes, , but the rules of bikes do not prevent them from entering a transport. It's the rules of transports that only allow infantry to embark (with the specificication that jump infantry are not infantry), which technicly a model that has taken the bike wargear still is, because the wargear never changes its unit type. Its simply a more extreme version of the chaos space marines that took the wings wargear are not jump infantry and can thus embark.

[Rider-75]

you try and pull that in a game with me it'll be the end of the game.

 

it's stretching things way too far.

 

unless you model khan like this {CLICK LINK}

 

then i guess he might fit it in a LR.....

[dizzy-xc]

you try and pull that in a game with me it'll be the end of the game.

 

it's stretching things way too far.

 

unless you model khan like this {CLICK LINK}

 

then i guess he might fit it in a LR.....

 

or even like this: Click!

 

That's funny as hell! LMAO! Dude, I'm totally doing that! That kinda pocket bike would fit even under normal marines legs without modification... So it's not like I gotta tear anything up. I'm doing this for Khan, a Chapter master and a command squad, all coming out of a rhino, then sending the pic to GW. lol.

[ilnar]

The space marine bike entry says to follow ALL the rules for bikes, part of the rules for bikes is that they aer NOT standard infantry,

Pg 100 C:SM

Pg 51 states that "Bike" is infact a unit type, making them not infantry....

[thade]

Dizzy, I'm sorry. What part about HE'S MODELED ON A BIKE does not make sense to you? WYSIWYG says he's a bike unit.

 

Either he's a bike model and thus is using all of the bike rules, OR he's just got a big base and he's still infantry. Your entire argument hinges upon an assumed ambiguity: that nothing literally says modelling Khan on a bike makes him a bike unit. Given that WYSWYG addresses your unit-identity issue here, what's still up in the air?

 

You're falling into a trap here. The Warhammer rules are not written with this kind of legalese in mind; not only do they not structure the rules to be bulletproof, but often the writers take liberties with how they will state a rule because they're creative writers. Very often there are rules which are a bit unclear; the easiest way to go about it is to look at what the majority of the oldest players are saying. Why? Because they've been through multiple revisions of the game and can have an intuit understanding of wide-spread implications of various rules.

 

This last bit of meta-advice I gleened from nighthawks (really wish I could find the threat...it was one of my very early ones where I tried to assert that an IC in TDA didn't prevent a PA unit from Sweeping) which is, essentially, if everybody but you seems to be on one side of a thing, it might be time to throw in the towel.

[thade]

Found it!! BAM! (Thank you, Nighthawks. <3)

 

Thade - I've been on your end of a lot of arguments. trust me, no matter how sensible you feel your argument is (and it has some RAW without context merit) if everyone else disagrees, you could have the best argument in the history of debate and still loose. because there are a lot of rules that are so well understood in this game that they forget to make a point of them in the books. everyone keeps going based on the contextual basis such as those arguments placed against you today alone.

 

TDA, even on a single model attached to a non-TDA unit, forbids sweeps. so it has been written, so it shall be played.

[dizzy-xc]

Dizzy, I'm sorry. What part about HE'S MODELED ON A BIKE does not make sense to you?

 

Modeled on, under or beside a bike is non sequitur here. That has nothing to do with changing unit type. No precedent for it anywhere, ever.

 

WYSIWYG says he's a bike unit.

 

 

WYSIWYG does not change unit type either. You do not make sense to me.

 

EDIT: Thade, show me ONE example where WYSIWYG changes a unit type where it is already not expressly written, i.e., a Farseer already has rules that state his unit type changes to Bike if you buy him the wargear bike. Show me ONCE where WYSIWYG changes unit type and it doesnt say to do so already in the rules. Please.

[dizzy-xc]

Found it!! BAM! (Thank you, Nighthawks. <3)

 

Thade - I've been on your end of a lot of arguments. trust me, no matter how sensible you feel your argument is (and it has some RAW without context merit) if everyone else disagrees, you could have the best argument in the history of debate and still loose. because there are a lot of rules that are so well understood in this game that they forget to make a point of them in the books. everyone keeps going based on the contextual basis such as those arguments placed against you today alone.

 

TDA, even on a single model attached to a non-TDA unit, forbids sweeps. so it has been written, so it shall be played.

 

I think Nighthawk said it pretty well when he used the word sensible concerning your arguments. You seem to want to make sense of this, but it makes no sense. 7 space marines on bikes shouldnt be able to ride out of a rhino, but RAW they can. Your disagreeing with me doesnt have anything to do with winning or losing or the fact you think your sensibilities can make a unit type change when no where does it say to do so, nor is there precedent for it.

[dswanick]

I think Nighthawk said it pretty well when he used the word sensible concerning your arguments. You seem to want to make sense of this, but it makes no sense. 7 space marines on bikes shouldnt be able to ride out of a rhino, but RAW they can. Your disagreeing with me doesnt have anything to do with winning or losing or the fact you think your sensibilities can make a unit type change when no where does it say to do so, nor is there precedent for it.

No, 7 Space Marines on Bikes can't ride out of a Rhino because (FA) Space Marine Bike Squad is Unit Type: Bike.

Further, you are assuming that because the IC starts with the Unit Type: Infantry and the Space Marine Bike Wargear item doesn't say "A unit equipped with this wargear item is Unit Type: Bike" that "Units equipped with Space Marine Bikes use all the rules for Bikes as described in the Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook." mean the ICs Unit Type is still Infantry. But where do you find the rules referred to by the Space Marine Bike Wargear item? It's found on Pg.53 of the Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook in the Section entitled -

UNIT TYPES.

[thade]

Your counter argument to me is that...I don't make sense? Me and everybody else in this thread, except for you of course.

 

My one example - which you requested - is as it's cited by Nighthawks. Perhaps you missed it?

 

there are a lot of rules that are so well understood in this game that they forget to make a point of them in the books.

One of them is that a model on a bike is no longer foot-infantry. Them's the brakes. You have found the limit on RAW.See it as a limit and not an exploit. Your opponents will appreciate it.

 

Is your goal to use this unit? Or just to play devil's advocate? If the latter, then we're solved. If the former, well...I recommend you try it at a few events and see how it goes. :wink:

[DarkGuard]

Found it!! BAM! (Thank you, Nighthawks. <3)

 

Thade - I've been on your end of a lot of arguments. trust me, no matter how sensible you feel your argument is (and it has some RAW without context merit) if everyone else disagrees, you could have the best argument in the history of debate and still loose. because there are a lot of rules that are so well understood in this game that they forget to make a point of them in the books. everyone keeps going based on the contextual basis such as those arguments placed against you today alone.

 

TDA, even on a single model attached to a non-TDA unit, forbids sweeps. so it has been written, so it shall be played.

 

This is a fantastic post, thanks for this nighthawks and thade. In essence, it says that GW were hoping we'd use our common sense. Common sense tells us that models on bikes are bikers, regardless of what their original unit type is, and therefore may not be embarked in a transport. Just ask anyone. Seriously dizzy, you're fighting this on your own. Everyone else on this thread, and I imagine everyone else on the board will disagree with you and using common sense argue against you, and they are right. I've said it before, it's like the GW ruling on Daemons. There isn't a ruling on Daemons because it should be obvious. The same here, it's obvious a model on bike cannot go in a transport, so why are you so fixated on arguing your point here?

[dizzy-xc]

I think Nighthawk said it pretty well when he used the word sensible concerning your arguments. You seem to want to make sense of this, but it makes no sense. 7 space marines on bikes shouldnt be able to ride out of a rhino, but RAW they can. Your disagreeing with me doesnt have anything to do with winning or losing or the fact you think your sensibilities can make a unit type change when no where does it say to do so, nor is there precedent for it.

No, 7 Space Marines on Bikes can't ride out of a Rhino because (FA) Space Marine Bike Squad is Unit Type: Bike.

Further, you are assuming that because the IC starts with the Unit Type: Infantry and the Space Marine Bike Wargear item doesn't say "A unit equipped with this wargear item is Unit Type: Bike" that "Units equipped with Space Marine Bikes use all the rules for Bikes as described in the Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook." mean the ICs Unit Type is still Infantry. But where do you find the rules referred to by the Space Marine Bike Wargear item? It's found on Pg.53 of the Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook in the Section entitled -

UNIT TYPES.

 

Yes, the rules for bikes is found on page 53. Following those rules does not change the unit type. Even Wings are found on page 53 under Jump Infantry, but they are still Infantry when you buy the wargear Wings. (This was answered in an official GW FAQ) Same with Bikes wargear. When an HQ buys bike wargear, their Unit Type DOES NOT CHANGE. There is no precedent for it, there is no other wargear that changes unit type when it does not specifically call for it. ***Again, no one is able to show where unit type changes when this wargear is purchased. And that is because it doesnt.***

 

Now Fast attack Bikes are already classified as Bikes. They cannot embark into vehicles. But the 7 marines that can are because GW is sloppy. The BRB does not say to change the following Unit Type when purchasing Bike wargear, so they remain Infantry. And Infantry may embark into vehicles.

 

Chapter Master

Captain

Librarian

Master of the Forge

Chaplain

Korsarro Khan

Command Squad

 

2x HQ's plus the 5 members of a command squad = 7 space marines of a FOC that can purchase bike wargear where GW has not written rules for changing their unit type when doing so. It's RAW and they can all embark into a rhino.

 

It's amazing how many posters come up with all sorts of counter arguments for this that fail to address the single one problem that makes this legal and that is there is NO rule anywhere written that changes the unit type of the unit entry when buying this wargear.

[dizzy-xc]

Just ask anyone. Seriously dizzy, you're fighting this on your own. Everyone else on this thread, and I imagine everyone else on the board will disagree with you and using common sense argue against you, and they are right.

 

Are they? When did common sense change a unit type?

 

Sigh. Perhaps I am on my own here. I know this is an unpopular view. No one wants to see bikes roll out of a Rhino. And tactics wise its questionable to whether its even a workable battlefield tactic. But so far no one has been able to disprove how this problem is legal RAW wise, because there are no rules or precedent for changing a unit type when this wargear is bought.

 

What happened when the chaos codex came out and so many chaos players hated it? Well, it spawned plenty of custom alterations of the codex, plenty of house rules, etc. I know you guys dont like this rule, but its ironclad. In 3 pages of discussion, no one can answer where it is written that buying bike wargear changes a unit type. So if you dont like it, dont play it. House rule it. Use common sense and say bikes are bikes. Whatever. But one thing remains. And that is this is a RAW legal setup, like it or hate it, it is what it is.

 

Acquire the courage to believe in yourself. Many of the things that you have been taught were at one time the radical ideas of individuals who had the courage to believe what their own hearts and minds told them was true, rather than accept the common beliefs of their day.

Ching Ning Chu

[skink]

I am so loathe to get involved in this, but can't help it anymore.

 

My gut opinion is that dizzy-xc is wrong, for all kinds of reasons, but I will admit that I can, sort of, in a bending the fabric of reality and sportsmanship kind of a way, follow the RAW logic provided (please note that I hate myself for it).

 

So my counter-debate will not be RAW vs. RAI as that has been argued to death, nor one of common sense, as that will just get trumped with RAW.

 

Pg. 66 of the rule book (the little paperback one [avoiding any ambiguity ^_^]) states 'only infantry models may embark in transports' and then makes a brief qualification that jump infantry aren't eligible.

 

The definition of 'infantry' is soldiers who fight on foot. This isn't a 40k definition, but a definition that transcends the game, one of language and one that was defined long before the game was created. The game is based on definitions like this, based on a simple understanding that people know what stuff is. Like a board edge. Or that the value you score on a dice is the side pointing upwards, not the bottom (this has been said before by someone: props to them).

 

Bikes are not infantry. They're bikes. And I guess, using the quoted sentence and the worldwide definition of 'infantry', that that kind of is RAW.

[dizzy-xc]

The definition of 'infantry' is soldiers who fight on foot. This isn't a 40k definition, but a definition that transcends the game, one of language and one that was defined long before the game was created.

 

I've been playing since rogue trader came out and Zoats in powered armor erroneously ran around with shuriken catapults massacring space marine squads with sustained fire... but the definitions of Infantry aint that old.

 

Take for instance the current codex Black Templars. Not so current I know, but this codex lacks Unit Types. Under wargear, the space marine bike simply follows the movement rules in BRB. So without the unit type definition being present in the Codex Black Templars, I'd agree with my peers and rule that once mounted on a bike, the unit is technically not Infantry (although he never was) and cannot embark into vehicles.

 

But 5th edition came along and with it we have Unit Types. And for the most part, GW gets it right giving the 9 units I posted above unit type changes when adding wargear. The same cannot be said with bike wargear and that is because GW messed up. It isnt the 1st time.

 

And you havent read every post. Had you, you'd realize you are the 3rd or 4th person to reference the basic unit type page on 4-5 of BRB and state overall definition as rule, but GW even ignores that by stating that Wings, which is listed on page 5 of BRB under Jump Infantry Unit Type as saying that its not Jump Infantry and they are allowed to embark into vehicles. That wording under Wings Wargear is eerily similar to Bikes. Bottom line is that NO PAGE in the BRB changes the unit type of an Infantry unit that buys a bike as wargear. Thats the issue right there.

[dswanick]

I think Nighthawk said it pretty well when he used the word sensible concerning your arguments. You seem to want to make sense of this, but it makes no sense. 7 space marines on bikes shouldnt be able to ride out of a rhino, but RAW they can. Your disagreeing with me doesnt have anything to do with winning or losing or the fact you think your sensibilities can make a unit type change when no where does it say to do so, nor is there precedent for it.

No, 7 Space Marines on Bikes can't ride out of a Rhino because (FA) Space Marine Bike Squad is Unit Type: Bike.

Further, you are assuming that because the IC starts with the Unit Type: Infantry and the Space Marine Bike Wargear item doesn't say "A unit equipped with this wargear item is Unit Type: Bike" that "Units equipped with Space Marine Bikes use all the rules for Bikes as described in the Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook." mean the ICs Unit Type is still Infantry. But where do you find the rules referred to by the Space Marine Bike Wargear item? It's found on Pg.53 of the Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook in the Section entitled -

UNIT TYPES.

 

Yes, the rules for bikes is found on page 53. Following those rules does not change the unit type. Even Wings are found on page 53 under Jump Infantry, but they are still Infantry when you buy the wargear Wings. (This was answered in an official GW FAQ) Same with Bikes wargear. When an HQ buys bike wargear, their Unit Type DOES NOT CHANGE. There is no precedent for it, there is no other wargear that changes unit type when it does not specifically call for it. ***Again, no one is able to show where unit type changes when this wargear is purchased. And that is because it doesnt.***

 

Now Fast attack Bikes are already classified as Bikes. They cannot embark into vehicles. But the 7 marines that can are because GW is sloppy. The BRB does not say to change the following Unit Type when purchasing Bike wargear, so they remain Infantry. And Infantry may embark into vehicles.

 

Chapter Master

Captain

Librarian

Master of the Forge

Chaplain

Korsarro Khan

Command Squad

 

2x HQ's plus the 5 members of a command squad = 7 space marines of a FOC that can purchase bike wargear where GW has not written rules for changing their unit type when doing so. It's RAW and they can all embark into a rhino.

 

It's amazing how many posters come up with all sorts of counter arguments for this that fail to address the single one problem that makes this legal and that is there is NO rule anywhere written that changes the unit type of the unit entry when buying this wargear.

But the difference is that "Models equipped with Wings move in the same way as Jump Infantry, as described in the Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook" while "Models equipped with Space Marine Bikes follow all of the rules for bikes as described in the Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook.".

 

But you go right ahead a cling to your misbegotten view of the rule. Just let me know who you are so I can be sure to enforce any and all rules lawyerish rule-mongering against you such as reading my dice from whichever face I want, not allowing your vehicles to benefit from Psychic Power-provided Cover Saves, and not allowing your Wraith Guard models to shoot becuase they don't have eyes modeled. ^_^

[dizzy-xc]

Ok, problem solved now that I'm home and can quote things at you.

 

Kor'sarro Khan's unit entry, page 94 of C:SM: "Moondrakkan is a Space Marine Bike."

 

Space Marine Bike wargear description, page 100 of C:SM: "Models equipped with Space Marine Bikes follow all the rules for bikes as described in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook."

 

Transport Vehicles entry, page 66 of BRB: "A transport may carry a single infantry unit and/or any number of independent characters (as long as they count as infantry), up to a total of models equal to the vehicle's transport capacity."

 

Unit type "Bikes" is not unit type "Infantry." Bikes cannot embark onto a transport vehicle.

 

the issue is

"follow all the rules for bikes as described in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook." =/= is unit type bike. in the same way a chaos lord with wings is not jump infantry. Khan is still infantry, even with the moondrakkan wargear. why? Because GW is sloppy.

 

Nuff said. Oh, and I do have green eyes painted on my wraithguard models. You'd be surprised at how daft some people can be. ;)