Leonaides Posted June 5, 2011 Share Posted June 5, 2011 Sorry, but at waht point did you manage to argue your way around "follows all the rules for bikes in the main rulebook"? because I still think that that would preclude getting in a transport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted June 5, 2011 Share Posted June 5, 2011 pg 52 BRB different unit types so far the rules have just dealt with troops that move around on foot - infantry-snip- in any given situation during a battle, if the codex doesnt say any different, follow the rules for the appropriate unit type, and if those rules dont say anything different, follow the basic rules for infantry it defines that infantry is on foot, a character with a bike doesnt fit this definition.. also we have the direction of: "follows all the rules for bikes in the main rulebook" If your following rules for bikes then your unit type must be bikes, it means the same thing.. read the above quote.. in this example the character is unit tyope infantry, but we have direction to use rules for unit type bike.. so he therefore uses those rules.. you cant then go back and use the infantry rules allowing you to board transports.. here is another argument pg 66 transport capacity A transport may carry a single infantry unit and/or any number of independant characterss (as long as they count as infantry) its interesting they use the words 'counts as infantry', they dont specifiy what unit type the IC has to be, only what rules hes using.. in this example hes using bike rules and is thereofre not 'counts as' infantry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dizzy-xc Posted June 5, 2011 Author Share Posted June 5, 2011 greatcrusade08 and Leonaides, the argument that 'follows all the rules for bikes' and page 5 of the BRB where 'unit mounted' falls under bikes are the best argument against this. But both fall flat because neither CHANGE THE UNIT TYPE. Here is Frosty the Pyro's quote againx3: the issue is"follow all the rules for bikes as described in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook." =/= is unit type bike. in the same way a chaos lord with wings is not jump infantry. Khan is still infantry, even with the moondrakkan wargear. why? Because GW is sloppy. The problem with page 5 of the BRB is that it describes units as defined in their Unit Type. This part of the rules has NO BEARING WHATSOEVER on changing a units type. In fact, page 5 of the BRB under unit types even has an error. It lists wings under Jump Infantry and in the chaos codex wings bought as wargear DO NOT CHANGE THE UNIT TYPE. A FAQ by GW confirmed this. The unit remains INFANTRY and may embark. Bikes are no different because there are no rules that change unit type for buying wargear unless specifically stated to do so. You may not change unit type of a unit just because of your sensibilities or feelings on the matter. GW is VERY specific about this. I posted that here: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...p;#entry2781590 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dizzy-xc Posted June 5, 2011 Author Share Posted June 5, 2011 only what rules hes using.. in this example hes using bike rules and is thereofre not 'counts as' infantry. It doesnt matter what rules a unit follows in regards to what unit type it has. GW will either tell you to change the unit type or it will not. Just because it uses rules for something else doesnt necessarily change the unit type. GW has written rules in each case for when unit type changes. You may not arbitrarily change unit type on your own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted June 5, 2011 Share Posted June 5, 2011 the problem here is not that our arguments fall flat, is that your purposely being obtuse into what "follows all the rules for bikes in the main rulebook" means the rules on bikes are only lised under the unit type section. so if your following the rules for bikes, your unit type bikes heres some reasoning as to why your wrong every IC has skilled rider ability, which means they can re-roll dangerous terrain rolls, but only when they are unit type bikes. since every Ic starts as infantry, your argument means they can never be unit type bikes and therefore the whole rule is pointless. again as ive stated on numerous occasions, the unit type section is all intertwined, everything is basic infantry rules unless specifies at which points its x.y or z.. the fact that we have a set precedent tat shows wargear options change unit typ (as in jump packs) also means that bikes change unit type.. infact under unit type bikes, it says any model thats mounted on a bike.. its plain to see, but your ignoring it all to try and win an RAW argument that just doesnt hold any water Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dizzy-xc Posted June 5, 2011 Author Share Posted June 5, 2011 the problem here is not that our arguments fall flat, is that your purposely being obtuse into what "follows all the rules for bikes in the main rulebook" meansthe rules on bikes are only lised under the unit type section. so if your following the rules for bikes, your unit type bikes heres some reasoning as to why your wrong every IC has skilled rider ability, which means they can re-roll dangerous terrain rolls, but only when they are unit type bikes. since every Ic starts as infantry, your argument means they can never be unit type bikes and therefore the whole rule is pointless. again as ive stated on numerous occasions, the unit type section is all intertwined, everything is basic infantry rules unless specifies at which points its x.y or z.. the fact that we have a set precedent tat shows wargear options change unit typ (as in jump packs) also means that bikes change unit type.. infact under unit type bikes, it says any model thats mounted on a bike.. its plain to see, but your ignoring it all to try and win an RAW argument that just doesnt hold any water And you are ignoring every post I have made where I SHOW you where it is written that GW is specific in what units change unit type and what doesnt. You are also ignoring Frosty the Pyro's post where he clearly shows you it doesnt change and why. You are also ignoring the precedent set where Wings that are even listed under Jump Infantry under UNIT TYPES are not Jump infantry at all thereby proving that Unit Types as a category of rules themselves do not change a unit's Unit Type. You also ignore that Jump Packs as wargear specifically say to change a units type and Bikes as wargear do not and comparing them is like comparing apples to oranges. You are trying to win a RAI argument that doesnt hold any water because you dont have your facts in order. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dizzy-xc Posted June 5, 2011 Author Share Posted June 5, 2011 every IC has skilled rider ability, which means they can re-roll dangerous terrain rolls, but only when they are unit type bikes.since every Ic starts as infantry, your argument means they can never be unit type bikes and therefore the whole rule is pointless. Yes, the whole rule is pointless unless you are Master of the Ravenwing or some other HQ unit like a Farseer or Autarch with jetbike or Chaos Sorcerer on a Mount of Slaanessh or a Necron Lord on a Destroyer Body, etc... The way GW doesnt change the unit type when you buy bike wargear doesnt allow you to use this rule and it allows you to embark into a vehicle because you are still Infantry. Skilled rider doesnt not allow you to change unit type, sorry. Keep grasping at straws. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeattleDV8 Posted June 5, 2011 Share Posted June 5, 2011 BRB pg.4 "Infantry units include all types of foot soldiers....." BRB pg 5 "These units are riders mounted on a variety of conventional bikes or jetbikes." BRB pg.66 "A transport may carry a single infantry unit and/or any number of independent characters (as long as they count as infantry)." The unit type doesn't matter, in that the IC is mounted on a bike, he no longer 'counts as' infantry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dizzy-xc Posted June 5, 2011 Author Share Posted June 5, 2011 BRB pg.4"Infantry units include all types of foot soldiers....." BRB pg 5 "These units are riders mounted on a variety of conventional bikes or jetbikes." BRB pg.66 "A transport may carry a single infantry unit and/or any number of independent characters (as long as they count as infantry)." The unit type doesn't matter, in that the IC is mounted on a bike, he no longer 'counts as' infantry. I've stated it 5x now. Unit Types on page 4,5 BRB do not change the unit's Unit Type. GW will tell you when to change a unit's Unit Type as I posted here: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...p;#entry2781590 Unlike many posters example of Jumppacks as wargear (also being listed on page 5 of BRB) say to change the unit's type to Jump Infantry from Infantry, Bike wargear DOES NOT say to change the unit type. Just because a descriptive term that describes a particular unit type can be found on page 5 of the BRB, that doesnt mean that a Codex entry's Unit Type may be changed. Codex will always trump the BRB as in the case of Wings in the chaos SM codex where on page 5 of the BRB they are listed as Jump Infantry, but in the Chaos SM Codex, they are still Infantry and are able to embark. Bikes are no different. Again, you cannot show where a rule has the authority to override the codex entry's unit type because there is no rule that changes a unit's Unit Type unless specifically stated to do so in that unit's entry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonaides Posted June 5, 2011 Share Posted June 5, 2011 greatcrusade08 and Leonaides, the argument that 'follows all the rules for bikes' and page 5 of the BRB where 'unit mounted' falls under bikes are the best argument against this. But both fall flat because neither CHANGE THE UNIT TYPE. Here is Frosty the Pyro's quote againx3: the issue is"follow all the rules for bikes as described in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook." =/= is unit type bike. in the same way a chaos lord with wings is not jump infantry. Khan is still infantry, even with the moondrakkan wargear. why? Because GW is sloppy. The problem with page 5 of the BRB is that it describes units as defined in their Unit Type. This part of the rules has NO BEARING WHATSOEVER on changing a units type. In fact, page 5 of the BRB under unit types even has an error. It lists wings under Jump Infantry and in the chaos codex wings bought as wargear DO NOT CHANGE THE UNIT TYPE. A FAQ by GW confirmed this. The unit remains INFANTRY and may embark. Bikes are no different because there are no rules that change unit type for buying wargear unless specifically stated to do so. You may not change unit type of a unit just because of your sensibilities or feelings on the matter. GW is VERY specific about this. I posted that here: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...p;#entry2781590 Dizzy, If you are following all the rules for bikes, then you must also follow the rules for unit type - bike, since they are rules for bikes. Your unit type can be whatever you want it to be, and it really doesnt matter. You must follow all the rules for bikes, which MUST include unit type: bike. It is a rule for bikes. If you dont follow that rule for bikes, then you are not following the instructions in the codex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meatman Posted June 5, 2011 Share Posted June 5, 2011 Guys, why carry on? He's obviously going to ignore every piece of evidence (and has done). He's just trolling. We all know the answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dizzy-xc Posted June 5, 2011 Author Share Posted June 5, 2011 If you are following all the rules for bikes, then you must also follow the rules for unit type - bike, since they are rules for bikes. Your unit type can be whatever you want it to be, and it really doesnt matter. You must follow all the rules for bikes, which MUST include unit type: bike. It is a rule for bikes. If you dont follow that rule for bikes, then you are not following the instructions in the codex. There are many examples whereby a wargear will have a unit type use the rules for another unit type without changing the unit's unit type. Bikes on page 53 of the BRB do not have a rule as you claim that changes the unit type of a codex unit's entry. All that is listed under Bikes is +1toughness, 12" movement, Turboboosters, 3d6 fallback, some shooting rules, relentless, and some assault rules. No where does it say to change the unit type. Again, like a broken record, a codex entry will specifically state whether to change a unit's unit type or not. As in the case of Bikes, Wings, Juggernaut of Khorne, the unit type does not state to be changed. Like Frosty the Pyro stated earlier in this thread, Follows the Rules =/= change unit type. Sorry. Keep trying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dizzy-xc Posted June 5, 2011 Author Share Posted June 5, 2011 Guys, why carry on? He's obviously going to ignore every piece of evidence (and has done). He's just trolling. We all know the answer. Very mean spirited. I have clearly stated with the help of other posters the facts. No one has been able to successfully challenge the change unit type despite grasping at straws like invoking the skilled rider special rule. In the process we have discovered that HQ units on bikes do not get skilled rider special rules. Wait till we discuss an older codex like Black Templars or Witch Hunters that do not use Unit Type. What happens when an HQ unit buys wargear Bike? Are they allowed to embark in vehicles? Do they get to use the Skilled Rider special rule? Not trolling here. Your post is propaganda just as DarkGuards was when he stated I am alone on this which I am not. I won't be intimidated into bowing to someones inferrence or feelings of the rules. As the RAW are concerned, my argument holds water and no one has been able to show anywhere where buying wargear Bike changes the unit entry's Unit Type because it doesnt. I'm not arguing RAI either because I agree with everyone when they say the rule was intended to change their unit type to Bikes. But RAW it doesnt. Thats the problem. And there are issues because of it now. Skilled Rider, and older codex without unit type designations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isiah Posted June 5, 2011 Share Posted June 5, 2011 OK guys we're well into the realms of personal insult here which is not where we want to be. Everyone's had their say on the rules issues so lets leave it at that. dizzy-xc write your letter to GW yes? And keep us informed. In the meantime, before things get too out of hand: http://www.thedarkfortress.co.uk/banner_ad/closed.jpg Cheers I Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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