My latest battle vs GK notes/highlights

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

GK have lots of powerful counters to Mephiston.

 

G ;)

 

Definitely. Speaking more from a general hes awesome in a Mech list pov :)

 

 

I agree - he is an excellent choice for heavy mech.

 

G

[Leksington]

Stormshields are your friend versus massed force weapons.

 

G ;)

Paying 5 points over msrp, I don't find Storm Shields quite so friendly for BA.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

A stormshield is much better than simply picking a model up off the table plus a 3++ is pretty darn good. If you want to play an assault oriented army versus GK then you're going to have to accept that halberds will be hitting first... So you're going to have to be able absorb their damage then strike back. Equipped correctly BA can dish out a lot of damage.

 

G :huh:

[Ash]

I hope this is not off topic, I really enjoyed the original posters report thank you. I am building a DOA army incorporating SR's I have thought about using the SR's as troop delivery primarily how do you think SR's would do against a GK shoot list? Do GK have a lot of ranged 30 inch plus fire power?

I still want to use a generalist allcomers DOA army with SR's and now would possibly consider a couple of Baal Preds outflanking with Flamestorms. I don't see how a squad of expensive GK T4 halberds will last long with 2's to wound templates and no cover saves. Either the halberd GK's die on the edge or clump in the middle to avoid outflank. If halberd GK's are not killing things and just riding around in their tin can all game they are wasted points. A decent BA or DOA army should be able to avoid them, the whole list can't be I6 can it, there won't be many models to shoot then? Furioso's or DC dreads with blood talons dropping from a SR seem a good option too.

 

I will take correction from the more learned here but I see us BA as having many shoot/assault options that give GK plenty to fear.

I have not faced the new GK but they are one of the only armies that will field fewer models than us ...... and we are faster <_<

 

Our melta JP honour guard and vanguard with plasma/melta would seem to be GK's worst nighmare and I will take them for any game not just GK.

[Corby]

I hope this is not off topic, I really enjoyed the original posters report thank you. I am building a DOA army incorporating SR's I have thought about using the SR's as troop delivery primarily how do you think SR's would do against a GK shoot list? Do GK have a lot of ranged 30 inch plus fire power?

I still want to use a generalist allcomers DOA army with SR's and now would possibly consider a couple of Baal Preds outflanking with Flamestorms. Correct me but I don't see how a squad of expensive GK T4 halberds will last long. Either the halberds die or clump in the middle to avoid outflank. If halberds are not killing things they are wasted points. Furioso's or DC dreads with blood talons seem an option to.

I will take correction from the more learned here but I see us BA as having many shoot/assault options that will give GK plenty to fear.

I have not faced the new GK but they seem one of the few armies that have fewer models than us ...... and we are faster <_<

 

Grey Knights , like Guard and space wolves , can light up your stormraven the moment it moves onto the table with mass S8 autocannon shots on dreadnoughts. Outflanking Flamestorm predators is very very situational , depending on deployment and terrain , A 18" scout move plus a 12" move should put you in reach of anything on the first turn and provides target saturation ( which if you're running stormravens is incredibly important.) The Grey knights with halberds won't last long per say , but as your opponent can field so many of them in a list and you've so many targets of high priority in a grey knight army which makes worrying about halberds seem trivial. Your opponent shouldn't be scared for your Predator Out-flanking to the degree he will deploy everything in the middle field. Morelikely he'll use rhinos and razorbacks to block you from reaching any worthy targets of flaming. As for grey knight armies having fewer models , its not really true , they can match us pretty well on infantry and vehicles with plenty of high strength shooting to rival guard. Theres is a more mid-field orientated army however.

 

One thing we can beat Grey knights in is assault. Striking with I5 power weapons thanks to furious charge against strike squads should kill enough ( however purifiers with halberds will make a mess of regular marines and can put a few wounds on assault terminators , but if you're using stormshields and not some 3 lightning claw configuration you shouldn't loose to many to wipe the squad) or using Assault terminators and Dreadnoughts to beat them in combat and using our superior mobility to pick our fights are the strengths we bring to combating Grey knights , thats what I make of it anyways.

 

To summarise in a sort of fiery but half true way : They WILL out shoot us , They MAY outnumber us , but we WILL out assault them!

[Ash]

Grey Knights , like Guard and space wolves , can light up your stormraven the moment it moves onto the table with mass S8 autocannon shots on dreadnoughts. Outflanking Flamestorm predators is very very situational , depending on deployment and terrain , A 18" scout move plus a 12" move should put you in reach of anything on the first turn and provides target saturation ( which if you're running stormravens is incredibly important.) The Grey knights with halberds will last long , as your opponent can field so many of them in a list and you've so many targets of high priority in a grey knight army which makes worrying about halberds seem trivial. Your opponent shouldn't be scared for your Predator Out-flanking to the degree he will deploy everything in the middle field. Morelikely he'll use rhinos and razorbacks to block you from reaching any worthy targets of flaming. As for grey knight armies having fewer models , its not really true , they can match us pretty well on infantry and vehicles with plenty of high strength shooting to rival guard. Theres is a more mid-field orientated army however.

 

One thing we can beat Grey knights in is assault. Striking with I5 power weapons or using Assault terminators and Dreadnoughts to beat them in combat and using our superior mobility to pick our fights are the strengths we bring to combating Grey knights thats what I make of it anyways.

 

To summarise in a sort of fiery way : They WILL out shoot us , They MAY outnumber us , but we WILL out assault them!

 

Hmmm (insert wry smile thing here) yes I may build so I can include or drop the SR, I still want a couple no matter it was unique to BA and now only GK, emperors damnation on them.

 

I agree totally with your comments, still like the idea of dropping next to a GK halberd squad with a 10 marine Vanguard executioner squad to double tap 10 plasma or 6 melta no save shots into them. The other half of the CS'ed squad set up with a few SS vets and a sang priest within the 6 inch bubble would soon slice up the survivor GK's, just a thought anyway. There seem many ways to deal with GK's I think we BA are lucky in this respect.

[Corby]

Grey Knights , like Guard and space wolves , can light up your stormraven the moment it moves onto the table with mass S8 autocannon shots on dreadnoughts. Outflanking Flamestorm predators is very very situational , depending on deployment and terrain , A 18" scout move plus a 12" move should put you in reach of anything on the first turn and provides target saturation ( which if you're running stormravens is incredibly important.) The Grey knights with halberds will last long , as your opponent can field so many of them in a list and you've so many targets of high priority in a grey knight army which makes worrying about halberds seem trivial. Your opponent shouldn't be scared for your Predator Out-flanking to the degree he will deploy everything in the middle field. Morelikely he'll use rhinos and razorbacks to block you from reaching any worthy targets of flaming. As for grey knight armies having fewer models , its not really true , they can match us pretty well on infantry and vehicles with plenty of high strength shooting to rival guard. Theres is a more mid-field orientated army however.

 

One thing we can beat Grey knights in is assault. Striking with I5 power weapons or using Assault terminators and Dreadnoughts to beat them in combat and using our superior mobility to pick our fights are the strengths we bring to combating Grey knights thats what I make of it anyways.

 

To summarise in a sort of fiery way : They WILL out shoot us , They MAY outnumber us , but we WILL out assault them!

 

Hmmm (insert wry smile thing here) yes I may build so I can include or drop the SR, I still want a couple no matter it was unique to BA and now only GK, emperors damnation on them.

 

I agree totally with your comments, still like the idea of dropping next to a GK halberd squad with a Vanguard executioner squad to double tap 10 plasma or 5 melta plasma no save shots into them.

 

 

Don't get me wrong , the stormraven is still a great unit to include in a blood angels army. Just with the sheer amount of firepower greyknights can bring , the passengers in the stormraven are in for a bumpy ride. That doesn't mean you shouldn't take it though , as it provides a very mobile transport for our armies.

[Zhukov]

Assaults into GK w/ I6 Halberds and their grenade sheningans is literally like trying to assault a brick wall with a bottle of water. I've had many games vs. GK with my BA and vice versa and I'd say it's one of the dumbest matchups in the game. It's dumb because if anything, GKs are no longer really Daemonhunters and are more Marine-hunters. I6 Force Weapons cuts through Marines much faster than Daemons sadly, because at least Daemons have a damn invul save. It gets even funnier if they have Khorne Collars.

So Assault Marines get beaten by elite units from the most elite army in the game which have been given special combat weapons? Now I didn't see that one coming :ph34r:

On a more serious note though, 2 things:

-Jumpers already was a non-competitive concept, if you like it or not. It had some horrible Matchups (Fatecrusher and Deathwing) and generally troubled against the best lists around in the game. GK's is just another bad matchup *potentially*. Which brings me to the second point:

-GK lists which load up on Halberds are most of the time an unbalanced army, one could say tailored. They invest points into stuff many armies dont care about. "You took Halberds on your guys? Good for you, but I rollover in assault anyway so couldn't care less." Give it some time, GK lists in the end will have very few Halberds around methinks. (the good ones at least and you beat the bad ones anyway right?)

 

I have 3 armies for Marines, BA, SW and GK. GK came first, then SW and last, BA. Out of all those armies, none of them play like they're supposed to, and for that reason, I'm furious. I took it out in the wrong place, in the wrong thread, so I once again, I'm sorry.

This sounds really sour, but is also untrue. Every army plays like its supposed to be, you know why? Because people follow the rules the game designers gave them. Of course I get what you are hinting at, but then i still disagree. (yes really)

 

But in all honesty, if I see another Razorlist, I'll probably pack up my :blink: until next edition.

Errr.... well better pack up your gear then already because you'll continue to see these kind of lists all over the place untill 6th is here. But you know that yourselves too of course. Bit surprised to hear this from someone who claims to run a competitive blog though. Not that it is not possible, but usually competitive people like competeting more than anything else... and therefore dont care if the game doesn't represent what they'd expect from it.

[Corby]

Assaults into GK w/ I6 Halberds and their grenade sheningans is literally like trying to assault a brick wall with a bottle of water. I've had many games vs. GK with my BA and vice versa and I'd say it's one of the dumbest matchups in the game. It's dumb because if anything, GKs are no longer really Daemonhunters and are more Marine-hunters. I6 Force Weapons cuts through Marines much faster than Daemons sadly, because at least Daemons have a damn invul save. It gets even funnier if they have Khorne Collars.

So Assault Marines get beaten by elite units from the most elite army in the game which have been given special combat weapons? Now I didn't see that one coming :ph34r:

On a more serious note though, 2 things:

-Jumpers already was a non-competitive concept, if you like it or not. It had some horrible Matchups (Fatecrusher and Deathwing) and generally troubled against the best lists around in the game. GK's is just another bad matchup *potentially*. Which brings me to the second point:

-GK lists which load up on Halberds are most of the time an unbalanced army, one could say tailored. They invest points into stuff many armies dont care about. "You took Halberds on your guys? Good for you, but I rollover in assault anyway so couldn't care less." Give it some time, GK lists in the end will have very few Halberds around methinks. (the good ones at least and you beat the bad ones anyway right?)

 

I have 3 armies for Marines, BA, SW and GK. GK came first, then SW and last, BA. Out of all those armies, none of them play like they're supposed to, and for that reason, I'm furious. I took it out in the wrong place, in the wrong thread, so I once again, I'm sorry.

This sounds really sour, but is also untrue. Every army plays like its supposed to be, you know why? Because people follow the rules the game designers gave them. Of course I get what you are hinting at, but then i still disagree. (yes really)

 

But in all honesty, if I see another Razorlist, I'll probably pack up my :blink: until next edition.

Errr.... well better pack up your gear then already because you'll continue to see these kind of lists all over the place untill 6th is here. But you know that yourselves too of course. Bit surprised to hear this from someone who claims to run a competitive blog though. Not that it is not possible, but usually competitive people like competeting more than anything else... and therefore dont care if the game doesn't represent what they'd expect from it.

 

On the point of Halberds , only purifiers get them at a cheap enough cost to really make it worth including 2-3 in a unit. So outside of Crowe builds , they won't be seen in large numbers.

[Zhukov]

On the point of Halberds , only purifiers get them at a cheap enough cost to really make it worth including 2-3 in a unit. So outside of Crowe builds , they won't be seen in large numbers.

But that's what I said :ph34r: Terminators get them too though.

[Corby]

On the point of Halberds , only purifiers get them at a cheap enough cost to really make it worth including 2-3 in a unit. So outside of Crowe builds , they won't be seen in large numbers.

But that's what I said :blink: Terminators get them too though.

 

As yes , forgot about them. But the purifier units are a far superior choice in comparison to them :ph34r:

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I pretty much agree spot on with what Corby said - those are words of wisdom indeed.... Pearls amongst glittering shards of broken rock. You just have to outplay GK using your tactics to win the day. To say or imply our jump infantry is second tier is nonsense. Assault Marines are both fast, can hit hard in close combat and can spam the melta. Fear is your biggest downfall - play to your strengths and you'll do just fine.

 

G :woot:

[BA.Rauk]

One of the better experiences of late would be a battle I played / rolled up against myself using Purifiers and Blood Angels at 1500 points. Surprisingly enough, the Purifiers out numbered the Blood Angels all said and done, though higher strength firepower was on the BA side in general. It was incredibly close, and though Mephiston got punked by a single ID wound that got through, the rest was rather back and forth as far as it went. Focusing fire was a big point in my list, and though I'm slowly leaning more towards assault marines in rhinos more and more as time goes on- fast vehicles is just as much an integral part of the Blood Angels chapter as jump packs and our First company doubling as assault marines. As far as the match went, GK barely pulled ahead 10 kill points to 9 in the fifth turn and even then, it was weighed heavily in the BA's favor for a good portion of the match until Mephiston died, getting rid of the hood. As far as my other experiences with my BA vs GK has gone... the GK players in my area have mostly been doing terminator spam so I haven't had a strong competitive list to test myself against as of yet.

[Brother Nathan]

can i just say i dont see how mech isnt fluffy? if anything jump pack horde isnt fluffy unless you play 8th co. if you look at company build, all of the tactical squads have rhinos(which is the same thing as a razorback because they just refit it with guns) as do the devistators and command squads. then you have assault squads which mainly train with jumppacks but by the codex have the abilityto use rhinos instead. Now sure gameplay wis ethere has abeen a large shift to assault marines, but ba have always ben veichle heavy as far as ive been aware when we used to have essientially fast opentopped rhinos that went even faster due to redthirst. they went slower last ed but we wont talk about it as that was a shoddy dex. and ever company has veichle supprt of soem form. most have a few dreads too. as far as im concerned mech is fluffy...

[SnorriSnorrison]

can i just say i dont see how mech isnt fluffy? if anything jump pack horde isnt fluffy unless you play 8th co. if you look at company build, all of the tactical squads have rhinos(which is the same thing as a razorback because they just refit it with guns) as do the devistators and command squads. then you have assault squads which mainly train with jumppacks but by the codex have the abilityto use rhinos instead. Now sure gameplay wis ethere has abeen a large shift to assault marines, but ba have always ben veichle heavy as far as ive been aware when we used to have essientially fast opentopped rhinos that went even faster due to redthirst. they went slower last ed but we wont talk about it as that was a shoddy dex. and ever company has veichle supprt of soem form. most have a few dreads too. as far as im concerned mech is fluffy...

 

Actually, you do not see many players fielding Tactical Squads, which would be fluffy. I think that Hero's complaints are not solely about Mech lists, his gripe is that 'competitive' lists look all the same - 5 men Assault squad in Razors x4, Preds x3 and Baal Preds x3 plus one(or two, for extra flava!) librarian.

 

And I agree, it is lame. The first thing that comes to my mind when I see Razorpsam lists is "oh my, another one. Make up your mind and do something else!". Of course, if a player wishes to build lists like this(or download them from the internet...) it is his decision and not mine.

 

I think that Razorspam lists are the root of all evil when it comes to 40k. Maybe because I never thought that vehicles are as resilient as Infantry. Or maybe because it is boring to see the same walls of grey boxes on the table, or even those who say "I'm playing Space Wolves but using the BA 'dex because of fasta tankz!!!"(Seen that!).

 

Warhammer Fantasy lives through Infantry, and so does 40k, but to a smaller degree(especially when you consider that there are no real tanks in Fantasy. Nevermind, different system.).

 

As far as Mech being fluffy, I don't agree. What is fluffy are Tactical Squads in Rhinos(which you mentioned, Nathan), Assault Squads with Jumppacks and Baals to support/cover that core of marines.

What is fluffy is DC with JP(yeah, it has been nerfed, but still it is fluffy), Captains are fluffy, Reclusiarchs(or basic Chaplains) are fluffy, Sanguinary Priest are fluffy, but a pure Mech setup is not.

Our armies have always been mobile, but not only via tanks, but jumpers and Drop pods too(and don't say that the DP counts as mech due to having an armour value!).

It is the combination of all those elements which the army book offers - not only those which are the 'bestest, fastest and IWINSLOLOLOL!'.

 

Every time a razorspam player utter the words 'My BA army is fluffy", a panda baby dies, brothers. Save the panda baby. :P

 

 

 

Snorri

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Except for my dark eldar I've made it a point to play armies that are light on vehicles such as my DoA. The reason for this is you can build a foot army/jumpers that will have a major advantage over the majority of armies you play against since indeed mech is perceived as the king. The only exception is when IG gets to play on a table that is light on terrain which can happen at big tourneys that aren't properly prepared - it's not that IG is better in this case - it's just that IG have an unfair advantage. If there is 25 percent terrain then you'll do just fine versus most mech lists.

 

My prediction is the halberd will be standard choice for GK units such as Paladins, terminators and Purifiers - it's a huge advantage and too good not to take. A Grand Master or Brother Captain with a halberd is I7... Kind of crazy.

 

G :P

[Brother Nathan]

yei i kow tacticals are fluffier and can still work, we just all choose assault marines as they work beter for most of us. and to behonest ive never feilded a captain, they have never appealed to me rules wise, in both of the previous dexes i used chaplins excluseively. (well bar dante who essientially was a chaplin in the pdf....) and every army had death company which was also unfluffy. currently i run 1 razor assault squad that fluffwise is a tactical squad thats lead by an absolute badass sarg who always charges and kills what he charges, the squad decided to use ccws to keep up. u may see this as fluff bending but ive already 4 full tactical squads and 2 full assault squads and 2 full devs(decided to use the last tactical as a sternguard squad) and the strike force is lead by a libarian as the captain is overseeing the battle from orbit ready with a second strikeforce from the first co. CAptains shouldnt always be on the front lines, they tend to die when thay are...which isnt what he captas faer, its seeing their company potentially fall appart as a result of their failure and being a dissapointment to the emperor.

regardless i still dont think you can just blame the mech. the mech aspect of our list mostly works(still iffy on the ammount o raiders we have access too...)

also what you see as fluffy isnt what another sees as fluffy. looking at your list, sang priests are only fluffy at one or 2, how many more do most lists run(thers only like 1 or 2 per company max)

death co are fluffy occasionally as they will always be way ahead of the rest of the force and if they were in the numbers that you need they will soon start running low on men for your company.

droppods will only be fluffy in the first stage of getting to a planet, when your there you dont use it to get to the next stage you find another way(walk raven etc)

also things like tacticalswont always be fluffy such as for the reserve companys and first etc.

Youd probably think my old scout army would be unfluffy when i thought it was as it had sneeky scouts and cover from whirlwinds and a death co running amock in the opponents lines.(though it would have probably been fluffier if the death co had access to some scout armour) regardless acording to the fluff an armys tactics will change on the given situation and herefore pretymuch any army can be fluffy if the player wants. even with your arguments i still see mech as fluffy.

 

anyway back on topic, how would my ras squads deal with greyknights? init 6 reallly leaves me wary of them. and i dont thinks my 1500 list has enough dakka for them

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

It doesn't matter who is right or wrong when it comes to designing a list or discussing a tactic. What matters is how you express yourself. It's possible to disagree without offending.

 

G ;)

[JamesI]

My apology to syypher, but this thread is on vacation until I get back from my game tomorrow night (probably about 28 hours from now).

 

Lets take the personal jabs off the board. Disagreeing with each other is fine, but this has gone far too personal and well off topic.

 

I will be going through this thread very carefully to see if any further action is required.

 

BO sums up my opinion well here:

It doesn't matter who is right or wrong when it comes to designing a list or discussing a tactic. What matters is how you express yourself. It's possible to disagree without offending.

 

G ;)

 

 

[Morticon]

James and I have discussed this thread.

 

As per the rules and standards of the board and this forum the members in question (Hero, Zhukov) will be getting themselves warnings.

 

 

Just for the record, we welcome new posters, we welcome new ideas. And as has been the tradition (starting with legend and mod Soular) we have given posters a much broader berth in the topics they cover and the humour in which they do so.

 

What we do not stand for is crappy posting quality, up to and including being socially awkward (or self-entitled) enough to not know when you're being offensive and rude.

 

This forum prides itself on being welcoming, friendly and helpful.

So, fall in line or find another forum - this goes for anyone reading this, not just the members that received warnings.

 

Also, if you have an issue with what's going on - please use the "report" function.

 

Thanks,

 

Morticon and JamesI.