Long Fangs vs. Predators

[HERO]

I originally wrote this on my blog, but I want to share with you here as well.

 

We all know Long Fangs rock and for good reason. They are cheap, effective and put out diverse and powerful long-range firepower. As you can see from this article I wrote a while back about Long Fang loadouts, I do like myself some missiles. However, with the recent shift in the meta, I'm wondering if there are other options out there for Space Wolves. Let's take a moment and look shall we?

 

First, let's look at the humble Predator.

Not just any Predator, but the AC/LC Predator that comes in at 120 points.

 

What's the difference between the Pred and the standard loadout of ML Long Fangs? Well for one, it's cheaper, by 20 points. It's AV13 and it's a vehicle and thus is immune to DE Venoms, S6 shots from Mechdar and better protection vs. S8 shots since it needs a 5 to glance. With 2 BS4 Lascannon shots at S9 and 2 BS4 S7 Autocannon shots, it's an incredible fire platform vs. vehicles and MCs but lacks severely when it comes to hordes. Just like Long Fangs, once deployed, there's very little opportunity to move these things around unless you want to sac a round of shooting. The only difference is that if Long Fangs want to move, they'll take a Razorback (more points) whereas the Predator will move 12" and smoke.

 

Long Fangs can also Split Fire, but most ML loadouts opt to shoot all their missiles at one target to force results. Flexibility is there, definitely, but for all intensive purposes, the Predator and the Long Fangs share similar target priority vs. vehicles. The biggest drawback of the Predator is the dreaded VDC. If you're glanced, you're spending 120 points to sit there for a turn. If one of your Long Fangs die, you pull the Leader and continue shooting 5 missiles back at your opponent. Of course, we can also say if the Pred got stunned or shaken, it doesn't lose any damage potential next round whereas you might lose out on missile fire if Long Fangs start dying. There are pros and cons from both, but for the points mentioned, both are solid choices imo.

 

I think this is where the metagame comes in. Looking around my area, I see a <_< ton of different Space Marines, BA, SW, Grey Knights, Mech IG, Tyranids and Dark Eldar. Orks are a rarity but I think I'll mention them anyway so players get a better picture. I only have one friend who plays Eldar and he's got a good amount of diversity as well. I think it's safe to say that against mech-focused armies, the AC/LC Predator serves a better role. Unless, of course, you're siting cross table from Long Fangs who can outspam you in terms of raw shots. When fighting Grey Knights, AC/LC Preds are better imo. S9 AP2 gives you a solid answer to Paladins and Terminators and Lascannons are better for punching through Psyfledreads. Lastly, it goes without saying that Predators are much better vs. Dark Eldar. You ignore Splinter Cannon fire from his Venoms and destroy vehicles with each breath you take. Against the likes of Tyranids and Orks however, when the ever-shifting need of anti-horde and anti-crappy armor arises, the Long Fangs are clearly superior.

 

What do you fellas think? Think outside the box here. People tend to get tunnel-visioned at the awesomeness of Long Fangs and disregard other factors.

[clanfield]

i use a destructor with las pods in smaller games or games were i need to be mobile then i also use it to support my long fangs in larger games 2k +,

long fangs do rock but the other options have there uses my vindicator for example always draws a lot of fire which takes the heat off other units,

[Rain Finale]

Flexibility is there, definitely, but for all intensive purposes, [...]

 

What do you fellas think?

 

I think you meant to say "for all intents and purposes" ;)

Let urbandictionary correct that habbit ;)

 

Tangent aside, that's not a bad comparison between the two showing certain advantages of a LC Predator over ML Long Fangs. However, in the same way that many people are tunnel-visioned into Long Fangs, I think you too may be "wanting something other than Long Fangs" and subjectively seeing significant advantages that are minute or situational or otherwise ignoring significant advantages that you don't want to see.

 

For example, specifically mentioning the predator's weapons firing at BS4 while not mentioning Long Fangs firing at BS4 so as to psycologically promote the Predator as much as possible in a similar way that marketers will put "No fat" labels on certain foods that never had any fat to begin with... but it attracts customers that didn't know any better. Anyway, everything SW short of "claws" and some ICs fire at BS4. A second example, in mentioning that "if Long Fangs want to move, they'll take a Razorback (more points) whereas a Predator will move 12" and smoke", while a Predator moving 12" on his own without having to spend extra points for a dedicated transport certainly is an advantage, mentioning the Predator can move and smoke is unnecessary and again, creates illusion of advantage as a Razorback too, can move and pop smoke.

 

Anyway, I'm not trying to attack you, just pointing out the bias I see in your comparison, not that having a bias is a bad thing.

 

I think in certain situations the Predator is worth a greater value in points like:

1. being immune to venoms as you said, although venoms carrying troops with dark lances will be fully equipped to kill either Long Fangs or a Predator.
   
2. Another situation is that the Predator can tank shock units off of an objective assuming it's still alive in the late game where you need to get a unit off of an objective and your best option is tank shock.
   
3. I've never tried it, but a Predator with AV 13 can also ram and destroy a Vehicle with AV10 fairly easily and still shoot if it's not damage I believe (again, I've never tried it so I'm hazy on the ramming rules).
   
4. If you need more heavy support but only have 120-130 points to spare, a Predator would fit the need nicely.
   

 

As far as points cost, a Predator with Lascannons costs the same as 3 Long Fangs with 1 ML, 2 Lascannons + the squad leader to try to make them as similar as possible. Main shooting difference is the S7 AP4 Heavy2 AC vs. the S8 AP3 Heavy1 krak ML. The AP3 ML will do better against MEQ while the AP4 Heavy2 AC will do better against xenos / humans since you have better chance to hit/wound with 2 shots. Lastly, the S8 ML will ID many multi-wound MEQs (I love them for killing Tau Crisis suits) while the S7 AC is sufficient to ID many multi-wound xenos (Eldar and Dark Eldar HQs like the 4 wound 240 point Vect dieing from a single AC shot sucks) and has a better chance to do so due to the 2 shots vs. 1. As far as vs. armor, I haven't thought about it a lot but it's probably a matter of preference. S8 has potential to stop a Land Raider while S7 can't touch it but for most armor (S10/11/12) the 2 shots from S7 *may* on average give you better results vs the single S8 shot.

 

However, Long Fangs have the option of putting more points into them for more firepower whereas you will only get at most 4 shots from a Predator if it isn't immobilized and can't pivot to have both lascannon sponsons in view of the target.

 

I'm all for thinking outside the box but I think I can only claim that a Predator is situationally "better" than a squad of long fangs.

 

That said, and here's the important part, you don't *NEED* to min/max your list for friendly games. You don't *HAVE* to bring the best units. If you tire of Long Fangs, Predators are not a bad choice for an alternative. I don't believe a Predator will be a better choice "most of the time" but who cares? It's not a bad choice and it shouldn't cripple you not to take a Long Fang squad in it's stead. Personally, I play to have fun, not to win and if using a Predator instead of a squad of Long Fangs might make the game more fun for me, then I'd use it even if it *might possibly* lower the chances of me winning. It just may mean I'll have to play more tactically.

[NTFH]

Predator Advantages:

1. Mobility

2. Mobility entering play from reserve or dawn of war

3. Firepower

4. No leadership tests

5. Can ram vehicles

 

Predator Disadvantages:

1. Vehicle Armour 13, 11 !!, 10 !! (I play enough to see predator armour ripped to shreds with too much ease)

2. Vehicle Damage Chart (unless you have a cover save, and are lucky, you're damaged, destroyed or not shooting)

3. Sponson Arcs (the issue comes up, especially when immobilised or trying to keep your own side armour out of sight)

4. Terrain

5. Only one model

 

Long Fang Advantages

1. Up to 6 seperate models for WOUND ALLOCATION and survival

2. Better for mixing different weapons

3. Firepower

4. ALWAYS 360degree arc of fire on all weapons

5. Terrain (cover saves and firing from high points in terrain/buildings/ruins)

6. Splitting fire and engaging "MSU" armies

7. Close combat capable

8. Can reasonably fend off tank shocks

 

Long Fang Disadvantages

1. Mobility

2. Mobility entering play from reserve or dawn of war

 

 

I find point cost to be negligable. Pred with AC and sponson Las will not accurately

damage enemies identically to similarily, or other wise close-to, costed long fang units.

 

If you mix weapons in the long fangs like I usually do, it makes removing them from paly even harder.

Pack Leader, 3Missile Launcers, 2Lascannons

 

Pack Leader, 2Missile Launchers, Lascannon, 2Heavy Bolters

 

If you're short on points and want to target more units per turn you can take long fangs in packs of as few as 3 models

making them 45pts plus 2heavy weapons and still option to give pack leader a weapon.

 

Also, as a SW player, I usually find using our SW Specific units preferable to taking generic

Space Marine stuff. Especially since long fangs are such a bargain.

 

Grey Hunters, Long Fangs, Wolf Scouts. Not so much on blood claws since the buff and point reduction

on grey hunters in our current dex. Though I still have a soft spot for going overboard with drop pods..

but that's another story.

 

The only advantage I see in the Pred over long fangs is shooting on the move.

 

Long fangs can also add extra rhino(s) or razorback(s).

 

Long fangs are possibly the best force multipliers we have without using special characters.

 

Think about it. 3 packs of long fangs with 3 razorbacks... those long fangs can be units of 3. that's potentiall 6 targeted

enemy units per turn on the cheap.

[mastrchief33]

The predator, in respect to the configuration mentioned in the original post, is a cheaper alternative to long fangs that would primarily fill the role of tank hunters, usually against a mechanized list, which appear to be most of what people face these days. I have a different experience in my gaming group but that really isn't relevant.

 

If your group consists mainly of mechanized opponents, predators would seem to be a suitable and cheaper alternative, even more so at lower point levels like 1500 or less. Again, it's highly dependent on what type of lists your opponents are fielding. I play against people that do occasionally run mechanized lists, however they have enough models to field other types of lists and do just that, seemingly at random. For that reason, I favor the flexibility of missiles launchers, in addition to the fact that one glancing hit doesn't stop my units from firing. An investment for razorbacks can serve the same function for redeployment as the predator being a vehicle in nature though honestly, if you have to move either of those units at any point during the game due to lack of targets within LoS, you're losing out. The chances of you not firing in any given turn are, in my opinion, higher with the predators irregardless of the fact that they may draw less fire. It could only take a few shots to stop 3 predators. Takes a lot more than a few to stop three long fang packs. The value of protection against poison shots & eldar spamming shuriken cannons is variable depending on your gaming group. That isn't a major factor for everyone, so using it as an advantage for the predator isn't really fair.

[HERO]

Predator Advantages:

1. Mobility

2. Mobility entering play from reserve or dawn of war

3. Firepower

4. No leadership tests

5. Can ram vehicles

 

Predator Disadvantages:

1. Vehicle Armour 13, 11 !!, 10 !! (I play enough to see predator armour ripped to shreds with too much ease)

2. Vehicle Damage Chart (unless you have a cover save, and are lucky, you're damaged, destroyed or not shooting)

3. Sponson Arcs (the issue comes up, especially when immobilised or trying to keep your own side armour out of sight)

4. Terrain

5. Only one model

 

Long Fang Advantages

1. Up to 6 seperate models for WOUND ALLOCATION and survival

2. Better for mixing different weapons

3. Firepower

4. ALWAYS 360degree arc of fire on all weapons

5. Terrain (cover saves and firing from high points in terrain/buildings/ruins)

6. Splitting fire and engaging "MSU" armies

7. Close combat capable

8. Can reasonably fend off tank shocks

 

Long Fang Disadvantages

1. Mobility

2. Mobility entering play from reserve or dawn of war

 

I disagree with some of your advantages and disadvantages... mainly with AV13 and vehicles being immune to multiples of S6 and below shooting and Poison Shooting, giving you a healthy immunity vs. Eldar and Dark Eldar. Have you ever eaten a opening volley with someone who takes heavy Venoms along side the healthy amount of lances? Or eating twin-linked S6 shooting from Eldar grav-tanks and consistently force you to take armor saves?

 

Both of these apply to the downsides of Long Fangs, in addition to being vulnerable to morale.

 

Clearly, you favor Long Fangs and didn't look at the comparison hard enough. Exactly what I meant when I said "don't get tunnel-visioned". You like Long Fangs, I get it, but listing things like tank shock benefits and close combat capable without listing the obvious dudes in T4 power armor vs. a TANK just seems like favoritism ;)

[Sarapham]

While the AV13 is good against Eldar and DE they are also two armies who are mobile enough to catch the preador at its sides quite often, and then we are just talking the survivablity of a Rhino.

[Rain Finale]

Long Fang Disadvantages

2. Mobility entering play from reserve or dawn of war

 

You can eliminate that disadvantage by having one of your troop's rhinos taken by the Long Fangs so that in Dawn of War, you just have your troops jump in when the Long Fangs jump out.

[HERO]

While the AV13 is good against Eldar and DE they are also two armies who are mobile enough to catch the preador at its sides quite often, and then we are just talking the survivablity of a Rhino.

 

Which can easily be negated by careful positioning and sandwiching with Rhinos or more Predators. Then on your turn you move and they pivot to continue shooting at the desired targets.

 

Eldar aren't the only dudes in the universe with tricks. My fangs are quite long and I've seen many battles.

[Simo429]

I read your blog entry earlier Hero and liked it a lot but I have to wonder if DE are one of your most regular opponents because personally I don't see them that often (although I did just finish playing a game against them) so I don't see venom spam as being high on my list of worries and if it is I build the redundancy in my list so that if I don't get first turn shooting I have enough missiles to make sure they aren't getting much of a second turn.

 

For me its more about the reliability of long fangs, if I went for preds it would be AC and HB sposons.

[HERO]

I read your blog entry earlier Hero and liked it a lot but I have to wonder if DE are one of your most regular opponents because personally I don't see them that often (although I did just finish playing a game against them) so I don't see venom spam as being high on my list of worries and if it is I build the redundancy in my list so that if I don't get first turn shooting I have enough missiles to make sure they aren't getting much of a second turn.

 

For me its more about the reliability of long fangs, if I went for preds it would be AC and HB sposons.

 

I'm blessed with a healthy number of opponents that takes a bunch of lists for me to fight. This includes and not limited to..

 

Mechdar

Footdar

Venom-spam DE

Foot/Beast/MC DE

Razorspam of all colors of Marines

Normal balanced Marines/BA/SW

Deathwing

Foot Orks

Speed Freakz Orks

MC Nids

Horde Nids

Mech IG

Air Cav IG

Newest flavors of GK include Psyfleman spam and balanced variants.

 

I'm a firm supporter of Long Fangs, don't get me wrong, but it helps exploring other options. I have a fight vs. GK next week and I'll be taking 3x AC/LC Predators instead of my regular list. I'll let you guys know how it goes.

 

IN FACT, I plan on taking AC/LC Preds vs. all the above lists and I'm still confident in my abilities to come out on top.

 

Speaking of which, let's play a fun exercise. How many of the lists above favor AC/LC Predators and how many favor having Long Fangs in your squad. Use a 3 AC/LC Pred: 2 6x 5x ML Long Fang ratio because that's what I play with.

[hendrik]

well against hordes list i see the small blasts doing wonders, until the hordes hit the lines.but even then i'll be AV10 en no striking back vs the resistance the long fangs can put up. both setups have their advantages. i myself don't play that often and when i do it's most times against a necron player and not on a standard size map (his table is smaller , 32" deep maybe). in scenarious like these fielding a lot of vehicles can be quite a challenge. what brings me to the next point, cover and terrain.

with longfangs you'll always find a spot with cover, they can even be placed on second or third floors to give you an optimal firing position and when going through difficult terrain the worst that could happen is you only move an inch. now with the predator this changes drastically. first deployment. do you won't to get that nice cover save for deploying inside a piece of terrain but risk to be immobilised? will you have room enough to field your other units in a good position since a predator is quite large? a lot of this actually depends on the terrain you'll be fighting. for instance when battling on a relatively open table the predator and longfangs goe toe to toe but if you now place both of these units in a dense city terrain i see the long fangs having more advantages over the predator

[ilnar]

One thing you have both failed to mention is the psychological aspect, when I play against SW I automatically look for the long fangs as one of my main targets,

Since troops are likely to be my secondary targets a pred with an AC and LC/HB sponsons is much less likely to be targeted immediately, prolonging it's life and shooting.

[Gen. Confusion]

One advantage the predator has that no one has said is armor saturation. If all you have on the field is vehicles and meched up infantry then your opponent has nothing to shoot his small arms fire at. Until they can open up some of your transports all of the points they spent on anti infantry will be wasted.

[Toasterfree]

There are inherent differences in these two units. There are different situations on when the long fangs are going to be better, and there are times when a predator is going to be better. this really is a pointless debate designed to waste gigabytes of storage space on the web.

 

mathhammer in this you cant compare infantry to tanks. this is like comparing an apple to a kiwi. why debate something that really is preference. this should be a what you PREFER tread and why?

[eyeslikethunder]

I dont think there is much difference between them really. Their cost and firepower output is very similar.But when when ever i play my pred it just ends up stunned/shaken every turn. That for me is the reason i take the Long fangs is that they consistantly get to shoot in the beginning turns. If i take another tank its the Vindicator as it gives me something different. Plus i seem to roll hit a lot.

 

I also only have 1 pred I think using 3 would have force multiplier benefits as they would need use heavier weapons to affect them. I am interested in your results please keep us informed with match reports.

[Toasterfree]

I dont think there is much difference between them really. Their cost and firepower output is very similar.But when when ever i play my pred it just ends up stunned/shaken every turn. That for me is the reason i take the Long fangs is that they consistantly get to shoot in the beginning turns. If i take another tank its the Vindicator as it gives me something different. Plus i seem to roll hit a lot.

This is a case where I agree. A pred is a high profile target (meaning it's harder to hide and high value). Fangs are low profile and can get elevation. Everyone here is correct on those two about fangs. No one has gotten that wrong. Again this isnt one of those which is better questions it's which do you prefer

[Quillen]

My old 3rd Edition tourny list had 3 Preditors and a Dreadnought it in. It won 90% of it's games. I had 3 Annilators and a Destructor. Why? Cause my first Tourny list had 2 long fang packs and they were always eaten alive. No meat shields.

 

A Dev squad has those 6 meat shields. Long Fangs have none, and alot of weapons have a 24" range. I know I will shoot grey hunter packs at a long fang pack if in range and there is a chance I will kill a guy. A good chance. Shoot 2 packs at it and even better. And then every kill is a chance they will break.

 

Back in 3rd and 4th a Pred Annilator was 145 with extra armor. Today they are more expensive. Still it's 3 strength 9 shots with one rerolling to hit.

 

A destrustor is extremly cheap with heavy bolter sponcens. You can spam 3 for 255. That is 6 S7 and 18 S5 shots. Against a hord list this is a meat grinder. And they would have to pop/stun all 3 tanks to stop the pain.

 

So it's still a personal call. Alot of people love Missile Launcher Lonf Fangs. I used them in my latest list and they did ok. No amazing, but ok. Las Cannons are still the be all end all of tank hunting at range.

[Simo429]

The reason why people prefer the missile launcher spam because the role of heavy supports in a space wolf codex isn't to consistently pop enemy armour its to slay consistent suppressing fire.

 

We have other far more reliable ways of delivering anti high AV in speeders, scouts and grey hunters.

 

The job of a missile launcher is to reduce their mobility so you can do what wolves do best, control the midfield. When your opponent has 5-6 troop choices all in vehicles 3 preds aren't going to do the job because soon after he will be dictating what happens in the middle of the board.

[Toasterfree]

The reason why people prefer the missile launcher spam because the role of heavy supports in a space wolf codex isn't to consistently pop enemy armour its to slay consistent suppressing fire.

 

We have other far more reliable ways of delivering anti high AV in speeders, scouts and grey hunters.

 

The job of a missile launcher is to reduce their mobility so you can do what wolves do best, control the midfield. When your opponent has 5-6 troop choices all in vehicles 3 preds aren't going to do the job because soon after he will be dictating what happens in the middle of the board.

If I could like a post I'd like this one

[HERO]

The reason why people prefer the missile launcher spam because the role of heavy supports in a space wolf codex isn't to consistently pop enemy armour its to slay consistent suppressing fire.

 

We have other far more reliable ways of delivering anti high AV in speeders, scouts and grey hunters.

 

The job of a missile launcher is to reduce their mobility so you can do what wolves do best, control the midfield. When your opponent has 5-6 troop choices all in vehicles 3 preds aren't going to do the job because soon after he will be dictating what happens in the middle of the board.

 

I think this depends entirely on your list.

 

I control the mid field just fine, as long as you have 3 Grey Hunters in Rhinos, heavy support can be anything you want. This includes Vindicators as well, who is arguably one of the best midfield control units in the game.

[hendrik]

The reason why people prefer the missile launcher spam because the role of This includes Vindicators as well, who is arguably one of the best midfield control units in the game.

what brings me to another point, for the cash people are spending on a tanks i think a lot will prefer to buy the vindicator instead of the predator

[Toasterfree]

Still debating apples and kiwis. There is no comparison between long fangs and a tank. One shot can kill the tank, 58473738585958373747585 shots could kill the long fangs or vice versa.

 

Really, what is best for your list? Take what you need to do what you need to do. If it's long fangs fine. If it's a pred fine. If it's chuck Norris so be it. It's what fits with your list.

[Rain Finale]

If it's chuck Norris so be it.

 

How much does he cost?

[Toasterfree]

a billiondy points