Vs. grey Knights

[Spear of Achilles]

Posting here because its not that I love Slannesh over any other, but want all chaos army types opinion:

 

Some folks said lesser daemons were actually working ok vs GK's, and others are saying all armes need landraiders since AV 11 is dead vs GK's Str 7 rending.

 

To me, seems like Noise marines are the best troops vs GK's for Chaos, due to higher init and a nice Str 5 AP 3 template assault weapon. So taking these two ideas, an all-slannesh 2K army:

 

Termy Lord (MoS, Combie Melta, Per. Icon, Blissgiver @ I:6...could help vs those 2-wound Paladins)

 

x3 Dual LC I:5 Termies (MoS) + Dem. Poss. Land Raider

x3 Dual LC I:5 Termies (MoS) + Dem. Poss. Land Raider

 

Noise Champ (PW,Melta Bombs, Doom Siren) + 5 Noise Marines (Icon) + Dem. Poss. Land Raider

Noise Champ (PW,Melta Bombs, Doom Siren) + 5 Noise Marines (Icon) + Dem. Poss. Land Raider

 

x10 Lesser Daemons

x10 Lesser Daemons

 

Not bothering with tons of sonic weapons, just the Doom Siren and power weapon @ high init assaulting out the raiders

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

So let me see if I have this right: your idea is, at the most basic level, to use 20pt per model guys at I5 that strike at S4 with normal attacks vs 20pt per model guys at I4 that strike at S5 with all power attacks in CC, and beat them in assault? ;)

[caboosebe]

Can't take 4 landraiders ;)

[minigun762]

I would actually consider Noise Marines as one of the worst options, simply because GK are big on the halberds right now and wasting potential points to strike after the GK is a losing scenario. They are also unable to out-shoot GK within 24" thanks to the improved storm bolters and almost mandatory psycannon.

 

In my eyes, the biggest weaknesses of GK are the lack of long range firepower and the expensive basic units. Guess what, those are the same weaknesses of Chaos, which means it will be difficult to exploit those. In the end, I think its going to come down to a close range slugging match and tactics and leadership will carry the day.

[the jeske]

no range support every kind of GK build runs vindicars and this list has no good way to kill them fast enough that is on avarge one LR down per turn . low in number [6 man strong squad would work even against normal tacticals not to mention halabard armed GK of any sort] .

 

termi lord does a simulti death with basic GK troopers and HQs are faster then him . IoS on termis does nothing if the GK player finds any cover on the table .

 

and 20 LSDs what a joke . no frags means they strike after GK which means they die before they even get to strike .

 

syrens bounce of a GK army if it is a death star build [which either go 2xtermis 1puris or 2xtermis 1paladins +SRx2 for both] or a fluff all termy army .

Nice example of "how to get steam rolled" list.

[Brother Ambroz]

I've found oblits to be even more amazing then usual against GK, their plasma cannons work wonders against GK while melta/las work great against paladins too. I've also tried out dual vinicators and they actually worked decently hugged terrain and made sure they got their shots off before they GK could fire back.

[Kristoff]

Can't take 4 landraiders B)

 

Terminators can have LRs as Dedicated Transports, so you can field 6, if you have the points.

[Chengar Qordath]

I would have to agree that Raider Rush isn't the best option vs Grey Knights; as others have mentioned, halberds will ruin the day of any Chaos assault troops. I would have to say that the best bet would be to focus on firepower, both close-in and long-range. Despite costing substantially more than the average Marine, Grey Knights die just as easily to plasma, melta, and all the other things that consistently ruin a Marine's day.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

which ironically, if you don't try to use their aspiring sorcerers, means Thousand Sons are a good idea as AP3 combined with the small numbers of the grey knights means a squad could easily be destroyed in a turn or 2 by a thousand son squad. (obviously, Aspiring sorcers won't be mutch use, but they never have been really apart from bolt of change spam.)

[Spear of Achilles]

well, doom sirens would help mash their small squads with str 5 AP 3 templates, and the term lord goes Init 6. Rhinos and defilers will dies every time they shoot. A;; the raiders can also help drop Knights. This force will do far better than plague marine spam.

 

Nice example of "how to get steam rolled" list.

 

A great example of a lot of what-ifs. Sure if you charge termies into cover vs force weapons, there ya go. Tank shock their asses out of it with the raider. Then dump out and hit them with AP 3 template from the NOISE marines on board. Even with rending they are going to have a tougher time dealing with possessed raiders tahn they will your rhino spam.

 

Note: remember you have an edit button, so you don't need to post twice. Thanks!

[Dan The Deamon]

I love the list, and the thoughts on how to combat fire with fire. I think our only problem will come with the fact that noise marines vs grey knights, while similar on shooty/cc abilities, won't even up when you lie down point costs and all of the new GK added benefits. There's some logic in shielding small squads of noise marines with a doom siren in AV 14 against them until you're ready to charge, flame, and clean up, but that unit seems so narrow in its engagement you may have to have some moving pieces besides it that allow it its full tactical use.

 

I was musing the other day on a 4+ land raider build. Not for competitive play so much, but to represent the baddest nastiest guys in a strike force taking all of their most dangerous toys to the fight. Book 2 in the word bearer trilogy gave some motivation towards it, where they pulled a tac squad, havoc squad, khorne/zerk touched, and a squad of termis in 4 raiders. Sounded like a really fun list to try and play off, even though there were giant red flag weaknesses in the actual application of the specifics.

 

I think the 4 raider thing is a good start. Everybody expects to see preds, rhinos, or chimeras. With the advent of all those psyrifle dreads bringing 4 raiders to a fight effectively shuts down 75% of their firepower until you come charging out of those ramps. If you can work out the best choices inside the raiders, good timing, and good point usage (SLD will need play testing to determine their worth) you may have something.

 

From my humble experience.

[the jeske]

Nice example of "how to get steam rolled" list.

 

A great example of a lot of what-ifs. Sure if you charge termies into cover vs force weapons, there ya go. Tank shock their asses out of it with the raider. Then dump out and hit them with AP 3 template from the NOISE marines on board. Even with rending they are going to have a tougher time dealing with possessed raiders tahn they will your rhino spam.

 

ok dude. you want to go through all GK builds no problemo .

 

What kind of builds do GK have ? the puri build with crow where they spam 5 man squads with 2 psycanons , razors and rifle man dreads . They are going to be poping one LR per turn [vindicar + rending psycanons]. If somehow the termis make it in to hth they A get no grags B the puri build has more then enough tar piters [ crow , 3 rfile man . more then enough].

 

What is the other offten seen GK build ? the alfa strike list . 2xSR 2xtermis 1xpuris or paladins . again you have to deal with the vindicator and the MMs on fast moving skimers . halabards all the way so IoS does nothing as now GK are faster . termi armor means syren doesnt work unless you nail that one puri unit[if they decide to take it] . one on one GK termis are more efficient then chaos ones [in your set up that is] .

 

third build out of the GK dex. The coretez build . counter GK range support and counter, jakkero spam with chimeras . Good luck getting your units to charge .

 

 

by the way possession does nothing to improve the survivability of a LR you die just the same way you die without it . what it does make is A lower the BS of your LR[not realy important as we dont have PoTMS] and B lets us move when we are shaken/stuned.

 

 

 

With the advent of all those psyrifle dreads bringing 4 raiders to a fight effectively shuts down 75% of their firepower until you come charging out of those ramps.

 

12 re-roll shots per turn with str 8 and rending can in deed hurt LR , specialy when they are supported by a sniper of doom with 3+4d6 with rending .

[breng77]

Those S8 shots don't have rending. Though I agree that in general Noise marines are not the best choice against Gks, due to the inititiative issues. (Halberds trump Slaanesh mark). I actually think they might be the worst Chaos troop for fighting against GKs (Khone Hits harder, Tzeetch and Plagues live longer, Generic chaos marines are cheaper.)

[Spear of Achilles]

I did a battle today where I loaded up the Plasma, and while a loss, the Chaos guys did pretty well for what we were up against;

 

I had 2 preds (twin linked las, Heavy bolters)

Three 5-man Chosed with MoCG, x4 plasma guns, outflanking in Rhinos

Khârn (He actually did quite well vs the Knights)

5 zerks + skull champ with pwoerfist, Rhino

3 Oblits

2 10-man chaos marines (MoCG, plasma gun, melta gun, combi melta on rhino.

 

 

vs

 

Chapter master

Libby

two big squads of halbred knights

Psifleman

x2 Storm Ravens (With, i learned, no melta bonus dice armor)

x2 Dreadknights

 

Seize Ground/Pitched battle. I went first and decided to all-reserves. Unfortunately, through forgetfulness, I forgot to bring in a 10 man squad till almost the very end (round 6). The Chosen outflanked and snuck up one one Knight, and Khârn's zerks made short work of his other across the far board, but for the life of me, 7 or 8 las cannon shots from the Preds managed to only shake both of his two storm ravens and my damn oblits scattered onto one of the knights and horrible accident/removed from play. We learned storm ravens use is a must with his low model count.

 

The game went to round 7 where my combi melta penetrated his psyfileman dread but did not do jack and my chosen ran 1" instead of making it into contest range (he used the chapter master option where he can make even a walker scoring, so the psifleman sat on his HQ in cover all game)...another screw up, one of my plasma chosen got pinned and i forgot they only remained pinned for the remainder of whoever shot their vehicle's round was up. Stupid, stupid warboss.

 

Anyway, I see I could have gotten more plasma dropping the chosen to one squad, adding two chaos dreads with twin linked las and missile launcher. Sure I might mug a friend, but i also might with proper placing get 4 chances to take down a raven rather than 1. Then I'd have:

 

 

 

Khârn (Too fun and can't be force weapon killed)

Chaos dread (TW Las, Missile Launcher)

Chaos dread (TW Las, Missile Launcher)

x5 Chosen x4 Plasma gun, rhino with combi melta

 

x9 zerks + PF Skull Champ, x3 Plas Pistol,rhino with combi melta

x10 CSM with MoCG Plasma Gun/Melta Gun, rhino with combi melta

x10 CSM with MoCG Plasma Gun/Melta Gun, rhino with combi melta

 

x5 Havocs (4 Plas Gun, MoCG), rhino with combi melta

x5 Havocs (4 Plas Gun, MoCG), rhino with combi melta

x5 Havocs (4 Plas Gun, MoCG), rhino with combi melta

 

21 Plasma weapons might work...

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

I'm intrigued. Let me know how that list goes for you. Khârn seemed a no-brainer choice given he's the only psyker-immune guy we get, but mass plasma using Chosen and Havocs looks pretty beastly and I want to know how well it works out.

[minigun762]

My first thought with those dreadnoughts is that you could take termicide for cheaper.

 

Also don't mix the plasma/melta in the CSM squad. Since you're loaded on plasma elsewhere, take the melta and go tank hunting.

Or better yet, drop the CSMs for plague marines and spam plasma that way. ( :P dang, did I really just say that?!)

[the jeske]

2xdp minimax pms +oblits... is there any other way ???

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

2xdp minimax pms +oblits... is there any other way ???

 

Taking DPs against an anti-daemon army with enough anti-daemon psyker tricks and stupid "if opponent is a daemon or a psyker" rules to make them useless? That's a heck of a gamble.

[Corby]

I did a battle today where I loaded up the Plasma, and while a loss, the Chaos guys did pretty well for what we were up against;

 

I had 2 preds (twin linked las, Heavy bolters)

Three 5-man Chosed with MoCG, x4 plasma guns, outflanking in Rhinos

Khârn (He actually did quite well vs the Knights)

5 zerks + skull champ with pwoerfist, Rhino

3 Oblits

2 10-man chaos marines (MoCG, plasma gun, melta gun, combi melta on rhino.

 

 

vs

 

Chapter master

Libby

two big squads of halbred knights

Psifleman

x2 Storm Ravens (With, i learned, no melta bonus dice armor)

x2 Dreadknights

 

Seize Ground/Pitched battle. I went first and decided to all-reserves. Unfortunately, through forgetfulness, I forgot to bring in a 10 man squad till almost the very end (round 6). The Chosen outflanked and snuck up one one Knight, and Khârn's zerks made short work of his other across the far board, but for the life of me, 7 or 8 las cannon shots from the Preds managed to only shake both of his two storm ravens and my damn oblits scattered onto one of the knights and horrible accident/removed from play. We learned storm ravens use is a must with his low model count.

 

The game went to round 7 where my combi melta penetrated his psyfileman dread but did not do jack and my chosen ran 1" instead of making it into contest range (he used the chapter master option where he can make even a walker scoring, so the psifleman sat on his HQ in cover all game)...another screw up, one of my plasma chosen got pinned and i forgot they only remained pinned for the remainder of whoever shot their vehicle's round was up. Stupid, stupid warboss.

 

Anyway, I see I could have gotten more plasma dropping the chosen to one squad, adding two chaos dreads with twin linked las and missile launcher. Sure I might mug a friend, but i also might with proper placing get 4 chances to take down a raven rather than 1. Then I'd have:

 

 

 

Khârn (Too fun and can't be force weapon killed)

Chaos dread (TW Las, Missile Launcher)

Chaos dread (TW Las, Missile Launcher)

x5 Chosen x4 Plasma gun, rhino with combi melta

 

x9 zerks + PF Skull Champ, x3 Plas Pistol,rhino with combi melta

x10 CSM with MoCG Plasma Gun/Melta Gun, rhino with combi melta

x10 CSM with MoCG Plasma Gun/Melta Gun, rhino with combi melta

 

x5 Havocs (4 Plas Gun, MoCG), rhino with combi melta

x5 Havocs (4 Plas Gun, MoCG), rhino with combi melta

x5 Havocs (4 Plas Gun, MoCG), rhino with combi melta

 

21 Plasma weapons might work...

 

 

I think a major problem with relying on plasma to down grey knights is that you need to play the mid-field game with Grey knights , who can dominate the mid-field with mass S7 rending and S6 shooting as well as large amounts of S5 power weapons. Also another glaring weakness of plasma to combat grey knights is , you're required to be at 12" range to gaurentee getting enough shots off to down a moderate number of greyknights , which in turn exposes you counter-assaults from other grey knight units.

[CratZ]

Are we talking about all-comers list or tailored lists here? I find it heck of a gamble to leave DP out only for 1 matchup.

[Spear of Achilles]

I think a major problem with relying on plasma to down grey knights is that you need to play the mid-field game with Grey knights , who can dominate the mid-field with mass S7 rending and S6 shooting as well as large amounts of S5 power weapons. Also another glaring weakness of plasma to combat grey knights is , you're required to be at 12" range to guarantee getting enough shots off to down a moderate number of greyknights , which in turn exposes you counter-assaults from other grey knight units.

(and other replies)

 

The thing is, with storm ravens they are in your midfield by turn 1 anyway. Against such a list, melta is far from effective due to their special armor which negates melta dice (las work better). I was rather impressed how many pens he got on a rhino with Might of Titans. I may very well have won the game had I not forgotten pinned from a vehicle explosion only lasts his turn. The plasma also killed two dreadknights before they could do more than kill one berserker and put two wounds on Khârn. Sure, millage may very, but with so many plasma I still ahve a great chance to de-mech him if in rhinos. and as far as I gather, they will be coming after you, not the reverse, so we can make a descent fight of it. Yeah, i think princes are pretty much pointless vs Knights/

[Corby]

I think a major problem with relying on plasma to down grey knights is that you need to play the mid-field game with Grey knights , who can dominate the mid-field with mass S7 rending and S6 shooting as well as large amounts of S5 power weapons. Also another glaring weakness of plasma to combat grey knights is , you're required to be at 12" range to guarantee getting enough shots off to down a moderate number of greyknights , which in turn exposes you counter-assaults from other grey knight units.

(and other replies)

 

The thing is, with storm ravens they are in your midfield by turn 1 anyway. Against such a list, melta is far from effective due to their special armor which negates melta dice (las work better). I was rather impressed how many pens he got on a rhino with Might of Titans. I may very well have won the game had I not forgotten pinned from a vehicle explosion only lasts his turn. The plasma also killed two dreadknights before they could do more than kill one berserker and put two wounds on Khârn. Sure, millage may very, but with so many plasma I still ahve a great chance to de-mech him if in rhinos. and as far as I gather, they will be coming after you, not the reverse, so we can make a descent fight of it. Yeah, i think princes are pretty much pointless vs Knights/

 

 

I'm thinking more of the grey-knight lists with 3 Psyfledreads , loads of Strike and Msu Purifier units with Psybacks who dominated midfield with high strength shooting , most grey knight builds I've seen are of that variety , grey-knights have their major strengths in shooting , not assault (but they're still decent at assault) . But against Stomraven Builds , plasmaguns aren't great at bringing down Av 12 vehicles. Melta still is effective against Stormravens , sure you don't get the extra D6 pen, but you do still get the +1 due to the melta special rule on the damage chart , and due to him moving flat-out an immobilised result is all you need to wreck the stormraven.

 

Only grey knight assault builds will come after you , which as I've said already , isn't their major strength. Sure they've some great counter assault units with I6 halberds , but they've far better high strength shooting at the 24" range mark with mass psycannons on purifiers and strike squads , at 36" range with S6 heavy bolters on razorbacks and at the 48" range mark S8 autocannons with Psyflemen dreads.

[Zhukov]

The list of the OP is honestly just bad and it gets worse when you realise it tries to tailor against GK's (which it doesn't even do succesfully...)

 

Also, that GK list you played against is horribad, sorry... (Double Raven list = Rock list, 2 instakillable HQ's costing ~175 each at least? Err..oke)

 

 

What do you do? You take a normal Chaos list and if you're better you'll still win, simple. Doesn't get any better (Chaos are one of the worst armies now) and Chaos can't change their builds either (because then you weaken yourselves against all other armies, yay...)

 

Even then, the normal Chaos list does alright against GK's, it's not as bad as it was with Dark Eldar, at least your Oblits generally live longer than the turn they show their faces.