The Summoning & Disembarking

[Something Wycked]

Warp Stabilisation Field, page 61 C:GK.

A vehicle with a Warp Stabilisation Field can be the subject of a Librarian's The Summoning psychic power. A vehicle that moves in this way counts as having moved flat out.

Disembarking, page 67 BRB.

A unit that begins its Movement phase aboard a vehicle can disembark either before or after the vehicle has moved... If the vehicle has already moved (including pivoting on the spot), the passengers may disembark, but not move any further in that Movement phase.

Fast Vehicles, page 70 BRB.

Passengers may not embark onto or disembark from a fast vehicle if it has moved (or is going to move) flat out in that Movement phase.

By RAW, if a non-fast vehicle is moved via The Summoning, its passengers can disembark and shoot because it is not limited by the "fast vehicle" verbage in the BRB.

 

I find this disturbing. Can anyone disprove this or is this another question that belongs in the GK FAQ/Errata thread?

 

Edit: Woo 500th post :D

[timmytool]

this sounds right to me.... it's the same with roads a non-fast vehicles they can move 18" and drop its passengers as well.

[Grey Mage]

Normally only fast vehicles can move flat out, this seems to have been left out.

 

Id call it an exploit and rule the other way as a TO.

 

Still, the RAW argument is there.

[thade]

Normally only fast vehicles can move flat out, this seems to have been left out.

 

Id call it an exploit and rule the other way as a TO.

 

Still, the RAW argument is there.

 

I think this is pretty clear, actually. There are distinctions in the BRB between the Transport itself and those embarked insofar as effects, like Flat Out. So...

- One rule there says the vehicle counts as having moved Flat Out. Nothing changes that; the vehicle is hauling. Transport rules state very clearly (as cited) that you can't disembark models from a transport that's moved Flat Out.

- The other rule cited is a counter to the disembarkment rule; nothing wrong with them piling out and opening fire, as the rule clearly allows for them to do it.

 

This doesn't look like an over-sight to me. Keep in mind there are other things that aren't overridden here...for instance, if the vehicle counts as moving Flat Out and Tank Shock/Rams! something or lands in Dangerous/Difficult terrain and fails it's check, it was moving Flat Out. The occupants are dead. (Note, I'm not sure if Tank Shock! is viable for The Summoning, nor if it arrives via Deep Strike and thus may Mishap or something...codex is at home.) Off the top of my head, though, this looks legit.

[Something Wycked]

The rule about disembarking after moving flat out specifically refers only to Fast vehicles. The argument could be made that if you use The Summoning on a Stormraven, the the passengers can only disembark using the Shadow Skies rule since the Stormraven is a Fast vehicle and is subject to the above restriction.

 

And yes, no tank shocking or ramming; the vehicle is placed using the Deep Strike rules and would mishap if it contacted another unit.

[ShinyRhino]

The rule about disembarking after moving flat out specifically refers only to Fast vehicles. The argument could be made that if you use The Summoning on a Stormraven, the the passengers can only disembark using the Shadow Skies rule since the Stormraven is a Fast vehicle and is subject to the above restriction.

 

And yes, no tank shocking or ramming; the vehicle is placed using the Deep Strike rules and would mishap if it contacted another unit.

 

I don't thinkyou can use Shadow Skies, either. You remove the Raven from the table, and place it back onto the table someplace else using the Deepstrike rules. Using that, there is no path of movement for the models inside to drop along.

[Something Wycked]

That would be my interpretation as well, but the opposite argument could (and probably will) be made, unfortunately.

[Tanhausen]

IMO, the BRB only allows fast or flyers to go flat out.

 

The GK codex trumps the BRB and states that with that power, a vehicle normally not allowed to go flat out, does so.

 

But the BRB rules for a vehicle that has gone flat out kick in... so no, you can't disembark.

[timmytool]

The stipulation that you cant disembark is for fast vehicles only and unless it has the fast vehicle type which the power does not change thus disembarkation is allowed.

 

Vehicles are normally allowed to go flat out, the BRB just does not give it a mechanic to do so under its own steam.

 

The OP is correct as GW rules allow you to do it and have no applicable rules to negate this.

 

Land Raiders, Razerbacks, Rhinos, and Inquisitorial Chimeras all can be moved with the summoning and drop their cargo.

Note how the Stormraven Gunship is not in the list, it is a fast vehicle and does have applicable rules stopping it from dropping its cargo.

 

I will agree it does not work with RAI but this is purely a RAW scenario and will MORE THEN LIKELY be FAQ'ed when GW feels one is necessary(so in x years time).

[Koremu]

The only reason the rules for Flat Out vehicle movement only appear under Fast Vehicles is that when the BRB was written only Fast Vehicles could go Flat Out.

 

Inability to disembark is a result of moving Flat Out.

Flat Out is a movement mode which is available to Fast vehicles (due to BRB rule).

Flat Out is also available to GK vehicles under circumstances specified in the GK Codex.

 

Thus, the Codex trumps the BRBs limitation on non-Fast vehicles moving Flat Out, but it would need to specifically permit disembarkation while moving Flat Out if that were to be allowed. Which it doesn't. So you can't.

[DarkGuard]

I feel we must remember the context that the rulebook was written in. Name a non fast vehicle that could go flat out when the rules were written. I know I can't think of one. I don't think they were thinking of the future C:GK dex, so in this instance I'd say you can't disembark as it's moved flat out.

 

Also consider why it's said flat out. At cruising speed you can't fire anything anyway, flat out doesn't change this. You can't assault after moving cruising speed (unless it's an assault vehicle), flat out doesn't change this. You can't fire out the top hatch after moving cruising speed, flat out doesn't change this. You can disembark after moving cruising speed, flat out changes this (and therefore prevents assault from assault vehicles). I think it's quite clear you can't disembark, despite not being a fast vehicle, as otherwise they would have said the vehicle moves at cruising speed.

[Something Wycked]

Inability to disembark is a result of moving Flat Out.

Half correct; the inability to disembark is a result of only fast vehicles moving flat out.

 

Fast Vehicles, page 70 BRB.

Passengers may not embark onto or disembark from a fast vehicle if it has moved (or is going to move) flat out in that Movement phase.

 

Flat Out is a movement mode which is available to Fast vehicles (due to BRB rule).

Flat Out is also available to GK vehicles under circumstances specified in the GK Codex.

 

Thus, the Codex trumps the BRBs limitation on non-Fast vehicles moving Flat Out, but it would need to specifically permit disembarkation while moving Flat Out if that were to be allowed. Which it doesn't. So you can't.

The GK codex need do no such thing due to the nature of the BRB disembarkation rules:

 

Disembarking, page 67 BRB.

A unit that begins its Movement phase aboard a vehicle can disembark either before or after the vehicle has moved... If the vehicle has already moved (including pivoting on the spot), the passengers may disembark, but not move any further in that Movement phase.

Out of a non-fast vehicle, troops may disembark at any speed because no speed is specified, only that they can disembark after the vehicle has moved.

 

I feel we must remember the context that the rulebook was written in. Name a non fast vehicle that could go flat out when the rules were written. I know I can't think of one. I don't think they were thinking of the future C:GK dex, so in this instance I'd say you can't disembark as it's moved flat out.

 

Also consider why it's said flat out. At cruising speed you can't fire anything anyway, flat out doesn't change this. You can't assault after moving cruising speed (unless it's an assault vehicle), flat out doesn't change this. You can't fire out the top hatch after moving cruising speed, flat out doesn't change this. You can disembark after moving cruising speed, flat out changes this (and therefore prevents assault from assault vehicles). I think it's quite clear you can't disembark, despite not being a fast vehicle, as otherwise they would have said the vehicle moves at cruising speed.

DarkGuard, you're absolutely right about RAI- I completely agree. The fact remains that the RAW argument against our better judgement is flawless. This is a loophole, plain and simple. Honestly, this is just a point of principle; a squad may be transported by The Summoning and may fire after their teleportation, so a squad being transported in a vehicle that is teleported via The Summoning and then disembarking and firing is only a small stretch.

 

But I am a stickler for details, and I know that units should not be able to disembark from a vehicle that is moving Flat Out, so this irks me to no end. :D

 

I want to also bring up an issue that is so related that I do not want to create an additional thread: Dreadnoughts and The Summoning. Dreadnoughts are vehicles, and therefore have moved Flat Out when transported by The Summoning. BRB RAW provides only that Dreadnoughts may move and fire with no limitations on speed, as Dreadnoughts normally move as Infantry so there was no need to specify how Dreadnoughts operate at different speeds.

 

I think the RAI remains essentially the same; I don't think Dreadnoughts that have moved Flat Out via The Summoning should be able to fire since they should have the rules for Fast vehicles applied to them in this instance. The RAW does not address it directly and so allows it by omission, however.

[timmytool]

BRB p72 "Walkers can move and fire all of their weapons, just like a stationary vehicle." RAI for walkers say their is only one way to stop them shooting... threw the vehicle damage table. they always fire as stationary simple.

[thade]

BRB p72 "Walkers can move and fire all of their weapons, just like a stationary vehicle." RAI for walkers say their is only one way to stop them shooting... threw the vehicle damage table. they always fire as stationary simple.

That is my take on it as well.

[Something Wycked]

That's not RAI, that's RAW. As I noted myself:

 

BRB RAW provides only that Dreadnoughts may move and fire with no limitations on speed...

But thank you for quoting it for me :D

 

The RAI in this case has less to do with normal operation of Dreadnoughts and more to do with the Warp Stabilisation Field wargear and The Summoning psychic power. WSF says vehicles "count as moving flat out" and in the BRB, the only mentions of vehicles moving flat out are for Fast vehicles. These rules say that Fast vehicles cannot move flat out and fire.

 

Dreadnoughts are not Fast vehicles, but are moving flat out. RAI as I see it is they do not fire since vehicles that can move flat out cannot also fire. RAW does not address it.

[timmytool]

That's not RAI, that's RAW. As I noted myself:

 

BRB RAW provides only that Dreadnoughts may move and fire with no limitations on speed...

But thank you for quoting it for me ;)

 

The RAI in this case has less to do with normal operation of Dreadnoughts and more to do with the Warp Stabilisation Field wargear and The Summoning psychic power. WSF says vehicles "count as moving flat out" and in the BRB, the only mentions of vehicles moving flat out are for Fast vehicles. These rules say that Fast vehicles cannot move flat out and fire.

 

Dreadnoughts are not Fast vehicles, but are moving flat out. RAI as I see it is they do not fire since vehicles that can move flat out cannot also fire. RAW does not address it.

 

yet again unless the unit type is changed specifically, RAW you can not use another unit types rules just because the BRB writer did not think about that scenario.

 

the rules say yes and the power does not do anything that turns that yes to a no, RAW wise it is that simple.

 

RAI I agree that anything going flat out should be affected by the FAST VEHICLE unit type rules but only a FAQ can change this and until then the rule of law is RAW which says yes to shooting etc.

[Grey Mage]

That's not RAI, that's RAW. As I noted myself:

 

BRB RAW provides only that Dreadnoughts may move and fire with no limitations on speed...

But thank you for quoting it for me

 

The RAI in this case has less to do with normal operation of Dreadnoughts and more to do with the Warp Stabilisation Field wargear and The Summoning psychic power. WSF says vehicles "count as moving flat out" and in the BRB, the only mentions of vehicles moving flat out are for Fast vehicles. These rules say that Fast vehicles cannot move flat out and fire.

 

Dreadnoughts are not Fast vehicles, but are moving flat out. RAI as I see it is they do not fire since vehicles that can move flat out cannot also fire. RAW does not address it.

 

yet again unless the unit type is changed specifically, RAW you can not use another unit types rules just because the BRB writer did not think about that scenario.

 

the rules say yes and the power does not do anything that turns that yes to a no, RAW wise it is that simple.

 

RAI I agree that anything going flat out should be affected by the FAST VEHICLE unit type rules but only a FAQ can change this and until then the rule of law is RAW which says yes to shooting etc.

If they cannot be bound by the rules for fast vehicles they cannot be affected by this power- because we have no idea what happens when a non-fast vehicle moves flat out, indeed there are no rules for moving flat out other than in the fast vehicle section.

 

So it can only be used on stormravens. Ohwell.

[BOBMAKENZIE]

yet again unless the unit type is changed specifically, RAW you can not use another unit types rules just because the BRB writer did not think about that scenario.

 

Just as an aside. You are not talking about Unit Type you are talking about vehicle type. All Vehicles are Unit Type Vehicle. They just also are quantified with sub vehicle types. Which is why when Vehicles are given a unit type in codexes you typically see Vehicle (Tank, Fast) on a blood angels rhino for example. Although the vehicle also is of the transport variety.

 

 

As such it is listed as neither fast nor tank nor transport as a unit type but these rules still all apply since they are its Vehicle Type.

 

Why is this important? Well the very definition of a fast vehicle states:

 

"Fast Vehicles are capable of a third level of speed, called 'flat out'." pg 70

 

I would posit that if the vehicle can move flat out then it must in fact be a fast vehicle by the very definition in the rules. Which means that all the rules that cover fast vehicles would apply to any vehicle moving Via Summoning.

[timmytool]

so your saying the summoning makes a vehicle "fast" and so for the rest of the game I can move it flat out during any movement phase yes.....

 

I will concede that fast vehicles are a sub type of the vehicle type but just like normal types they NEED to be specified you can't just self impose unit sub-types because the rules don't make full sense to you(as house rules yes you can but their just that house rule not RAW)

 

can I say the land speeder that I just glanced is open topped for a +1 on the damage chart, it fits the "open-topped vehicles" listed BRB p65 so it must be open-topped.....

 

it is the rules as written not rules that we add to to make sense(non FAQ) because they were poorly written or do not conform to our ideas on how it "should work".

 

unit types(sub-types) cant be added at whims no mater how much sense it makes adds to the rules.

 

I will say that when a FAQ comes out for C:GK I expect it to rule/errata it to be affected by the fast vehicle rules but as it stands ATM we must go by the current RAW. Make house rules if it offends you and suggest to TO's to do the same if you know a C:GK player will enter but don't be under the impression that that is RAW.

 

edit: edit shown with strike threw

[BOBMAKENZIE]

so your saying the summoning makes a vehicle "fast" and so for the rest of the game I can move it flat out during any movement phase yes.....

 

No you'll note that the vehicle only has the ability to move flat out whenever the summoning is cast on it. Making the effect toggle essentially. Is the summoning cast? Yes then it has a flat out movement mode. No then it does not. Whenever it has this mode it meets the above quoted rule which would define it as a fast vehicle.

 

 

can I say the land speeder that I just glanced is open topped for a +1 on the damage chart, it fits the "open-topped vehicles" listed BRB p65 so it must be open-topped.....

 

On the contrary pg 65 as you quote is simply a descriptive paragraph about what the units may or may not be. Whilst what I quoted is admittedly within the Movement section of the fast vehicle rules but since we are discussing a matter of movement anyway.. I believe i can back this up by noting that no where does any of the rhinos/razorbacks in the more recent books get listed as transports official but they are still subject to the transport rules do to the fact they have a transport capacity.

[timmytool]

so your saying the summoning makes a vehicle "fast" and so for the rest of the game I can move it flat out during any movement phase yes.....

 

No you'll note that the vehicle only has the ability to move flat out whenever the summoning is cast on it. Making the effect toggle essentially. Is the summoning cast? Yes then it has a flat out movement mode. No then it does not. Whenever it has this mode it meets the above quoted rule which would define it as a fast vehicle.

 

 

can I say the land speeder that I just glanced is open topped for a +1 on the damage chart, it fits the "open-topped vehicles" listed BRB p65 so it must be open-topped.....

 

On the contrary pg 65 as you quote is simply a descriptive paragraph about what the units may or may not be. Whilst what I quoted is admittedly within the Movement section of the fast vehicle rules but since we are discussing a matter of movement anyway.. I believe i can back this up by noting that no where does any of the rhinos/razorbacks in the more recent books get listed as transports official but they are still subject to the transport rules do to the fact they have a transport capacity.

 

it does not have the ability it only "counts as having moved flat out" and as it does not have the Fast Vehicle sub type this has no further affect unless it is the stormraven which is fast and has the additional rule involving that moment speed.

 

the movement section of a special unit type does not count as a definition of what counts as that special unit type. In the possibility that it did the target of the summoning is not capable of moving flat out it only "counts" as having moving flat out.

 

 

On the land speeder point, the page 70 opened-topped vehicle preamble is applicable to my example too.

The point being unless it says something similar to "all units that go flat out or counts as going flat out gain the Fast vehicle attribute until the start of its owners/controllers next turn".

 

on the rhino front in the detailed army section(not the army list section) it can be argued that the big bold TRANSPORT in the few army books I looked at could be argued as being the declaration it has that unit sub-type

 

Also the preamble for transport vehicles (BRB p66) "Transports have several additional characteristics: Transport Capacity, Fire Points and Access Points." which characteristics are listed under the big bold TRANSPORT in the comprehensive unit summery mentioned above.

 

Also most (I admit not all) are also listed in the army list sections of their army books under the tittle DEDICATED TRANSPORTS with a preamble that includes "See the Vehicles section of the Warhammer

40,000 rulebook for details of how transport vehicles operate."

 

while yes you make a valid point with regard to transports, I believe GW have poorly written them in most/all codex's but my above 3 points make a clear RAW argument to them being affected by the transport rules.

 

EDIT: out a : in () that turned into a :D also most of my uppercase words are uppercase in the codex's

[BOBMAKENZIE]

I will return to the first quoted rule. It doesnt matter that it is in the movement section because the line exactly previous references that fast vehicles differ from normal vehicles in the following ways.

 

"Fast Vehicles are capable of a third level of speed, called 'flat out'." pg 70

 

So I will continue to posit the following.

 

Non Fast Vehicles cannot move flat out.

Fast Vehicles can move flat out.

A vehicle that is capable of moving flat out is a fast vehicle.

The Summoning makes a vehicle count as moving flat out.

If A vehicle counts as moving flat out... it must have moved flat out and only fast vehicles are even capable of moving flat out

 

Q.E.D. The vehicle has to be fast no?

[timmytool]

I will return to the first quoted rule. It doesnt matter that it is in the movement section because the line exactly previous references that fast vehicles differ from normal vehicles in the following ways.

 

"Fast Vehicles are capable of a third level of speed, called 'flat out'." pg 70

 

So I will continue to posit the following.

 

Non Fast Vehicles cannot move flat out.

Fast Vehicles can move flat out.

A vehicle that is capable of moving flat out is a fast vehicle.

The Summoning makes a vehicle count as moving flat out.

If A vehicle counts as moving flat out... it must have moved flat out and only fast vehicles are even capable of moving flat out

 

Q.E.D. The vehicle has to be fast no?

 

Not any were does it say that flat out is the sole domain of fast vehicles.

ATM the sub-type fast vehicles is the only one with rules pertaining to going fast out but that does not change your p70 Quote into "Only Fast Vehicles are capable of a third level of speed, called 'flat out', and all vehicles that are forced by en external rule/wargear/power to do so become a Fast vehicle while affected then to the start of the owners next turn".(bold by me to demonstrate one way it could be written to change the unit sub-type, but then it should be in the preamble for the sub-type not the sub-types movement section)

 

If a car(real world) has flashing lights on its roof to does that automatically make it a cop car... no

 

The summoning is doing the speed the vehicle is not doing under its own steam as it counts as having moved flat out but it ITSELF did not do go flat out which is what your movement rules for a sub-type refers to.

Just like the winged demon prince that has the jump infantry abilities but is not jump infantry itself, you can act like something else but not be it...(and in this instance it proves that the unit type cant be granted unless specifically said so)

 

As I have said, hinted to and made examples to unless it says you become/gain a type/sub-type you do not gain/become it, so any vehicle moved by the summoning does not become/gain the fast vehicle sub-type.

 

and no it does not have to be fast Q.E.D.